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aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
12/7/20 3:55 p.m.
ShawnG said:

What if you only experience "covid symptoms" from the vaccine?

"Hey, you're on a ventilator but relax, it's only Covid symptoms.

One of the reasons they test it on 10's of thousands of people. The worst they have seen is fever (no where near as severe as what Covid symptoms are).

But... it does bring back my guess that the severity of someones response to the vaccine will be proportional to what your response would be to the virus (NO actual info on this, but I think a reasonable guess).  If the vaccine actually makes you "sick" (as noted, around 5% have anything over mild symptoms) then the virus likely would have killed you.

mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/7/20 4:24 p.m.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

All of the above? They are learning new things about the virus all the time.  The simple fact a vaccine has been developed so quickly would indicate there will be room for improvement in both effectiveness and cost.  Along that same line of thinking, I'm okay with being a test subject.  I'm not likely to get sick, I'm likely to recover if I do, and if I don't... well... in the list of risky things I do, I don't put this in the top 10.

Same. I keep hoping to get a call from Johnson and Johnson asking me to participate in their trial.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa SuperDork
12/7/20 6:39 p.m.

Looks like almost no one in this thread has to worry about getting the vaccine until next summer.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/07/us/trump-covid-vaccine-pfizer.html

Jesus wept...  What a joke

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
12/7/20 10:00 p.m.

The Pfizer vaccine is also the most expensive and hardest to transport, right?  So maybe not all bad they didn't commit to more.

Besides, based on this thread and other surveys, we may not need as many as we may think.

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
12/7/20 11:37 p.m.

My household will get it but not for a while. A couple high risk people here and we would want the time period to be when infection and hospitalization numbers are low. Low enough for hospitals to allow family to be with the patient. Then we would get the vaccine. 

I trust this vaccine as much as I trust any other vaccine. I do find it interesting how critical many are for the FDA to have stringent regulatory oversight NOW when for about 20 years or so most complaints were that they should just let meds go through with just a glance. I maintain that a well funded stringent FDA is always a great idea. 

Unlike other countries the vaccine approvals for the USA didn't skip any steps. 

As an aside, rumor is from some purchasing functions in HHS is that some of the big funding numbers talked about in the media includes Federal support of distribution of vaccine in the fall 2021/winter of 2021-2022. So stretch those costs across almost two years. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
12/8/20 7:43 a.m.
Advan046 said:

My household will get it but not for a while. A couple high risk people here and we would want the time period to be when infection and hospitalization numbers are low. Low enough for hospitals to allow family to be with the patient. Then we would get the vaccine. 

I trust this vaccine as much as I trust any other vaccine. I do find it interesting how critical many are for the FDA to have stringent regulatory oversight NOW when for about 20 years or so most complaints were that they should just let meds go through with just a glance. I maintain that a well funded stringent FDA is always a great idea. 

Unlike other countries the vaccine approvals for the USA didn't skip any steps. 

As an aside, rumor is from some purchasing functions in HHS is that some of the big funding numbers talked about in the media includes Federal support of distribution of vaccine in the fall 2021/winter of 2021-2022. So stretch those costs across almost two years. 

This is America. People complain that whatever is happening, the opposite is what should be happening. And social media, and the regular media's reliance on it, has made these people think they are important. 

I can't tell you how many times I shut down a news story because all it turns out to be is a lazy journalist who picked four Twitter responses and frames it as though this is the feeling of the vast majority of people in the US.

Not the 4 uneducated bozos on Twitter.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/8/20 7:44 a.m.

I will get it, but I'm happy to wait.  Let the higher-risk people get it first.  I don't want to be that middle-aged guy with no risk factors take a dose that could have gone to a senior, someone with COPD, or any other underlying medical condition that might mean they die just so I can prevent my potentially milder symptoms if I were to get an infection.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
12/8/20 9:16 a.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Same here. Sure I have diabetes,  but I can breathe just fine. I'm happy to wait my turn.

chaparral
chaparral GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/8/20 10:50 a.m.

I'll get it the first day it's available to me, and I'm requiring my team to get it at their first honest opportunity. 

Ashyukun (Robert)
Ashyukun (Robert) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/8/20 1:13 p.m.

Dancer and I will get it, but we'll likely be some of the last to get it since we're not in particularly high-risk groups. She might be able to get it more quickly due to her working with children who tend to be higher-risk, but I kind of doubt things around here will be organized enough to be able to make that count for anything (it is Kentucky after all...). Ironically, I generally haven't had many of the usual vaccines because of my upbringing... I think I've only had the multi-vaccine cocktail they include the tetanus vaccine in these days that I got a few years back when I got a bad cut on a rusty car frame in a junkyard- and having actually had the measles as a kid. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
12/8/20 2:34 p.m.

Something to consider if you are avoiding the vaccine:

Yes, COVID-19 Can Cause Erectile Dysfunction in Men 

 https://health.clevelandclinic.org/yes-covid-19-can-cause-erectile-dysfunction-in-men/ 

 

It comes from a study, which honestly seems pretty vague at this point:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7355084/

 

Might end up being a good thing though.  If you cannot control the human population (virus wise) by killing humans, keep them from reproducing.

 

Time to go watch Children of Men (very well done movie BTW)

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
12/8/20 2:37 p.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

I will get it, but I'm happy to wait.  Let the higher-risk people get it first.  I don't want to be that middle-aged guy with no risk factors take a dose that could have gone to a senior, someone with COPD, or any other underlying medical condition that might mean they die just so I can prevent my potentially milder symptoms if I were to get an infection.

I'm more concerned about transmitting it than getting it, which is my desire for the vaccine as well as why I wear a mask. If I get sick I get sick, if I make someone sick, that's a much harder cross to bear. 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
12/8/20 2:40 p.m.
Mr_Asa said:

Looks like almost no one in this thread has to worry about getting the vaccine until next summer.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/07/us/trump-covid-vaccine-pfizer.html

Jesus wept...  What a joke

They just announced that Minnesota ( population 5.7 million ) will get 146,400   In  December of the Vaccine   

mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/8/20 2:45 p.m.
mazdeuce - Seth said:
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

I will get it, but I'm happy to wait.  Let the higher-risk people get it first.  I don't want to be that middle-aged guy with no risk factors take a dose that could have gone to a senior, someone with COPD, or any other underlying medical condition that might mean they die just so I can prevent my potentially milder symptoms if I were to get an infection.

I'm more concerned about transmitting it than getting it, which is my desire for the vaccine as well as why I wear a mask. If I get sick I get sick, if I make someone sick, that's a much harder cross to bear. 

Same. Look at the data. If I get it, I can say with reasonably certainty that nothing bad will happen to me. But unfortunately, I can't say the same for my parents or in-laws. Between the 4 of them, I expect if all got it, at least 1 would end up in the ICU. 

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
12/8/20 2:45 p.m.
aircooled said:

Something to consider if you are avoiding the vaccine:

Yes, COVID-19 Can Cause Erectile Dysfunction in Men 

 https://health.clevelandclinic.org/yes-covid-19-can-cause-erectile-dysfunction-in-men/ 

 

It comes from a study, which honestly seems pretty vague at this point:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7355084/

 

Might end up being a good thing though.  If you cannot control the human population (virus wise) by killing humans, keep them from reproducing.

 

 

Thats what popsicle sticks and duct tape are for.

Ashyukun (Robert)
Ashyukun (Robert) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/8/20 3:52 p.m.

In reply to aircooled :

If that's the aim, it causing sterility would be far preferable to causing ED...

docwyte
docwyte UberDork
12/8/20 4:23 p.m.

Read a discouraging article in TIME Magazine yesterday.  Basically this isn't a vaccine in the way that the MMR Vaccine is.  If you get the Covid Vaccine that doesn't help you from getting covid, it just helps you with the symptoms of Covid.

What that 94-95% effective rate describes is keeping the symptoms light enough that you don't need to visit a hospital.  You can still get and transmit Covid with the same frequency rate whether or not you get the "vaccine".

So our lives aren't going to change because of this.  Still have to wear masks, still no movies, concerts, etc, etc, etc.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
12/8/20 4:42 p.m.
docwyte said:

Read a discouraging article in TIME Magazine yesterday.  Basically this isn't a vaccine in the way that the MMR Vaccine is.  If you get the Covid Vaccine that doesn't help you from getting covid, it just helps you with the symptoms of Covid.

What that 94-95% effective rate describes is keeping the symptoms light enough that you don't need to visit a hospital.  You can still get and transmit Covid with the same frequency rate whether or not you get the "vaccine".

So our lives aren't going to change because of this.  Still have to wear masks, still no movies, concerts, etc, etc, etc.

I am very suspect of anything in Time magazine anyway, but that doesn't sound very correct at all

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/8/20 4:57 p.m.

In reply to docwyte :

I am in the process of cross-checking that, but I believe TIME is in error.

The Pfizer/Biontech vaccine is an mRNA vaccine.  Here's how they work:  The virus (as I'm sure you've seen the pictures a millions times now) is covered with spikes made up of proteins that attach to receptors on your normal cells.  They then use your cells to replicate new versions of itself.  mRNA is something your body makes trillions of times a day. It is the subset of cellular RNA that your own body uses every day to make its own proteins.  By injecting mRNA that matches the C19 virus, your body makes some of those same proteins found in the spikes on the C19 virus.  This does two things:  1) the proteins occupy the holes in your cell that the C19 virus would have used to attach and infect the cell, effectively blocking it from attaching, and 2) your body sees these proteins and (although they are harmless) trigger your body's immune response so it can mount an effective attack on these proteins.  In this way, if you do actually come in contact with the virus, your body already has the ability to fight it instead of learning on the fly while you're miserable or dying.

If TIME is correct, then these concoctions would not legally be allowed to be called a vaccine.  They would be therapeutics, drugs, or treatments.  The medical definition of a vaccine is "a biological preparation that provides active acquired immunity to a particular infectious disease."  What TIME is suggesting is that it does not prevent the infection, just the symptoms.  Therefore it is not a vaccine.

According to all other sources I've found, the Pfizer/Biontech product is a true vaccine using the mRNA method and prevents the infection.  In 95% of the patients who received the vaccine, they did not get the infection because their bodies were able to terminate the virus before viral load caused an infection.

Also, important to differentiate between having the virus and having the infection.  If you are not immunized with a vaccine, you can take in the virus and test positive without having an infection.  If the virus moves faster than your immune system and it replicates to a point where it is "winning," you are then infected, but may or may not have the disease.  The disease is the set of symptoms.  It's like the difference between being HIV positive (you have the infection) and having AIDS (the resulting disease and symptoms of an HIV infection).  By the definition of a vaccine, the inocculation halts the process before infection by making it impossible for the virus to get the upper hand.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/8/20 5:09 p.m.

Incidentally, this is why some people think that vaccines "rewrite your DNA."  This is completely impossible.  You cannot re-write DNA with mRNA.  If you did, you would die.  Not just die, every cell in your body would cease to exist.  I don't care how many Star Trek episodes you watch, or how many articles you read about CRISPR, it is not possible.

DNA is the computer program.  Once the program is running, you can't alter the binary code.  You have to close the program.  You write the code, then start the program.  To alter it, you kill it (stop the process), re-write, and re-open.  In the same way, you ARE your DNA.  You can't change it on the fly.  You could use gene modification to affect the Gamete or (in some ways) the Zygote, but not on a fully-functioning organism.  It's like changing a piston while the engine is running.  DNA is the seed.  Once it grows into a tree, you can't go back inside the seed and change the genetic code.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
12/8/20 6:23 p.m.
aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
12/8/20 6:25 p.m.

One of those articles talks about transmissibility after the vaccine in the % of people it was ineffective on (that seems kind of obvious), one was behind a sign in wall, the other mentioned that they don't know because they haven't looked at it (which is scientifically correct).  It's a bit like asking them if it will make monkeys fly out of your butt. They have not looked at that, so they cannot say that it doesn't. 

The proper question would be something like "is there any realistic reason why someone could transmit the virus even after successfully being vaccinated?".   I don't know, maybe Curtis has more insight on this.

Thanks for the explanation Curtis.  This "only treats the symptoms" thing seems to be getting around (almost like a virus....) and Time appears to have gotten itself infected, those dirty birds! (sadly, they could be doing a lot of actual damage).

As you noted previously, using the proper words for things is important, but it does get difficult since most are not familiar with the specifics of the definitions and those can obviously have different meanings in other contexts.

BTW mRNA sounds a lot like DNA, so thus, it must change your DNA.... that's just good sciencing... cheeky

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/8/20 6:30 p.m.

For what it's worth, some info that was sent out by my family Dr. (who we've been going to since the early 80's):

So, how do these new vaccines differ from the vaccines you’re used to getting?

Traditional vaccines deliver either a dead or weakened form of a virus or part of a virus into your body. Your body sees this foreign invader, or antigen, and your immune system develops antibodies against it. Later, when your body encounters the real virus, your immune system recognizes it and attacks it before it can lead to an infection.

That’s how vaccines have worked for decades. But researchers are using a new technological approach to prime our immune systems. The two coronavirus vaccines currently in the news are called mRNA vaccines, and, if approved, they’ll be the first such vaccines to make it market.

How mRNA Vaccines Work

mRNA vaccines don’t deliver the antigen to the body. Instead, they carry genetic instructions that teach your cells how to make the antigen. This more closely mimics a natural infection, which may ultimately make them more effective.

mRNA is a molecule that tells cells what to build. In this case, the mRNA vaccine carries instructions to create a type of protein that is part of sars-cov-2, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19. The immune system then recognizes that protein or antigen, and when the real thing enters the body, it’s prepared to fight it.

Why did scientists working on these vaccines take this approach versus a traditional route? Even though there are no mRNA vaccines on the market right now, researchers have been studying the method since the early 1990s. They’ve had setbacks – especially in getting the vaccines to work in humans. Technological advancements have been key. This kind of vaccine wouldn’t have been achievable 20 or 30 years ago.

In traditional vaccines, lab researchers have to grow viruses and then inactivate either the virus or its protein. That’s one of the reasons it can take years for a vaccine to be developed.

But mRNA vaccines are quicker because scientists can create the protein sequence in the lab in hours or days – not months or years. And as technology has improved, so has the speed. For example, scientists decoded the genome for this coronavirus in early January – it took researchers six to eight years to decode the human genome in the 1990s. The fast decoding enabled researchers to create several mRNA candidate vaccines and begin testing them in the lab and in animals before the coronavirus became a worldwide pandemic. In fact, Moderna went from creation to testing in humans in just 63 days.

But are they safe?

So far, participants in Moderna and Pfizer vaccine trials have not reported any serious adverse events, although only data from earlier phases have been published. There are more than 40,000 participants in Pfizer’s phase 3 trial and 30,000 in Moderna’s. Data from this later phase is still being analyzed by independent safety and review panels. The FDA will also review data before approving either vaccine. The FDA is already looking at Pfizer’s data and is expected to look at Moderna’s soon.

While the new vaccines were created with great speed, they have followed traditional testing protocols, including multiple trials in humans with large scale testing in phase 3. They have taken a different approach at some turns – combining phase 1 and 2 trials, for example, but researchers say this doesn’t make them less safe. The biggest difference is that both Pfizer and Moderna have applied for Emergency Use Authorization from the FDA instead of traditional approval, which could take months or years. The FDA still has to review the safety and testing data of both manufacturers and monitor results for any adverse events or problems.

These new vaccines do have some distribution and storage challenges, especially with Pfizer’s mRNA vaccine. It must be kept at incredibly low temperatures (minus 70 degrees Celsius) or it can fall apart. Hospital systems and health departments who have the ability to keep the vaccine in deep freeze will likely be the first places to receive the vaccine.

Moderna’s mRNA vaccine is more stable – it can be kept for up to six months at minus 20 degrees Celsius, a similar temperature to a traditional freezer. The company announced in mid-November that its vaccine can also last for 30 days at 2 to 8 degrees Celsius, or a similar temperature to a normal refrigerator. The shelf life numbers are just an estimate for now – the vaccines may actually last longer, but it will take time for manufacturers to test their effectiveness.

What about other vaccines?
There are other vaccines. In fact, there are 54 in human trials and another 87 in lab testing.

Several of my MDVIP colleagues and I are involved in a trial by AstraZeneca and Oxford University. AstraZeneca recently reported an efficacy rate of 70 percent and as high as 90 percent in some groups of recipients. The vaccine is reportedly already being reviewed by British regulators (who have approved Pfizer’s vaccine).

It’s different from the mRNA vaccine, but the approach is new, too. The AstraZeneca vaccine uses another virus, genetically modified by scientists to mimic the virus that causes COVID-19. The body’s immune system recognizes the invader and develops the tools to fight off the real virus later.

Another promising candidate by Johnson & Johnson uses an inactivated and harmless common cold virus to deliver a coronavirus protein into host cells. There, the protein gets the attention of the immune system, which fights it and develops a response against future coronavirus infections. This vaccine only requires one dose, although J&J is now testing a two-shot approach.

Why are these vaccines important if Moderna’s and Pfizer’s are close to being approved? Public health officials think multiple vaccines will ultimately be needed to end the pandemic.

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
12/8/20 6:33 p.m.

In reply to docwyte :

I've heard these from various sources too. 
Been very interesting week. Maybe it's my demographic, but I've asked atleast 50 people in past 2 days about how they feel about the vaccine, and would they take it. ALL have said hell no, either don't trust it or are not worried about it they want to take their risk.

Disclaimer don't start E36 M3 with me, just informing what I'm experiencing in the real world.

Carbon (Forum Supporter)
Carbon (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
12/8/20 9:38 p.m.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
Carbon (Forum Supporter) said:

I'd Way rather have the virus than the vaccine. 

Umm... really?

Absolutely 

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