Covid fogger questions

I just got the word I'm going in for training on disinfectant foggers at work tomorrow. These are battery operated jobbies that look ike a cordless paint sprayer and a steamer had a baby. This all being new tech, I's inclined to be a bit cautious. Workplace is a community college. Questions I have in mind:

PPE?

What chemicals are "fogged"?

Is this CDC approved EPA? 

A quick search tells me nothing on the EPA's "N" list is a restricted use pesticide, which is nice. All input is appreciated.

I work in R&D for a company making EPA registered disinfectants and deal with our registrations all the time. I'll tell you what I know. 
 

Products on List N are stuff that EPA expects will kill SARS-CoV-2 virus but hasn't actually been tested against it. These products are approved to kill tougher viruses so they should be a safe bet for the new virus. 
 

Some products have now been officially tested on the actual virus and will list SARS-CoV-2 on the label. That's actually different than being on List N but those products are likely list on N too. 
 

Disinfectants are typically much safer toxicologically than the controlled insecticide stuff. 
 

Be aware, using any EPA in a manner not SPECIFICALLY listed on the label is illegal. Fogging application is not currently an application method approved by the EPA on anything. In fact , the EPA has specifically issued a Guidance AGAINST fogging. This is because anything that kills viruses is BAD for your lungs if you inhale the mist. The EPA does not approve any product to kill viruses in the air, only on surfaces. The chances of the disinfectant connecting with and killing a virus IN the air is minuscule. Disinfectants work by wetting surfaces where the viruses are and then staying in wet contact for long enough to be effective. Pay specific attention to the required wet contact time listed in the product label. If you don't spray enough to keep it wet that long, it's not effective. 
 

Also, spraying or electrostatic spraying ARE approved methods for some products. If they're approved, that application is listed on the label. Electrostatic spraying is perfect for your application, and I suspect that's what you'll actually be doing. 
 

Let me reiterate, you can ONLY use any product EXACTLY like the label says to. If you as the applicator deviate AT ALL, you are legally liable for any harm to people or property. As a company that makes the products, we are very familiar with how that plays in court. 

PPE : whatever is listed on the product label. This is typically a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Your main concern is inhaling the wet mist. It'll make you cough and hack but isn't anywhere as dangerous as solvents like MEK or the cyanurate fumes from POR15.

all in all, this is a pretty easy virus to kill compared to stuff like rhinovirus or TB. There's no reason to be frightened of the chemicals  

i can go on for days about this. If you have specific questions, please ask. 

Remember when asbestos was safe?

In reply to ShawnG :

Lol, you're not wrong, but the stuff that kills this virus is basic. Bleach, peroxide, alcohol, quaternary ammonia... and they've all been in the market longer than asbestos was. 
 

one of the things EPA evaluates with these products is human and environmental toxicity. I'm not saying that our understanding might not change, but these kinds of things are more thoroughly tested, reviewed, and examined than almost any other consumer chemical you come in contact with. 

In reply to ShawnG :

It still is when used correctly.

Appleseed said:

In reply to ShawnG :

It still is when used correctly.

Ya beat me to it!!!

In reply to ultraclyde (Forum Supporter) :

Good to have knowledgeable info. Thanks. 

For PPE our sprayers are wearing tyvek suits, hoods, goggles and respirators. They spray and wipe down all the interior surfaces of each bus with the sprayer and disposable rags. 

In reply to ultraclyde (Forum Supporter) :

We school bus drivers are required to spray disinfectants on all surfaces after every use.  Kids empty the bus and I spray. 
No training and while I do use a good sealing mask and rubber gloves, I only hope I'm wetting the surface enough to be effective. 

In reply to frenchyd :

check the label directions. most disinfectants are either 1 minute wet contact or 10 minute, depending on the chemistry.  If you are spraying enough that it stays wet for the required time, then you're spraying enough. 
 

if you guys aren't given access to the product label, ask for a copy.  If you've only got a product name or an EPA Registration number you can find the full registered copy of the label on the EPA website. If you want, I can walk you through how that's done  

Damn, I love this forum. UltraClyde, I was outta time, and you gave me a pointy stick in a slapfight. Thank You, and Be Well.

In reply to ultraclyde (Forum Supporter) :

As for product label, in a commercial setting doesn't there have to be a MSDS available on-site?  Material Safety Data Sheet

John Welsh (Moderate Supporter) said:

In reply to ultraclyde (Forum Supporter) :

As for product label, in a commercial setting doesn't there have to be a MSDS available on-site? 

Yes. Required BY LAW. Not sure if that applies to school bus, but it should. Prolly not an issue, but if so, the hive here can help.

In the last few years, OSHA has changed the name to SDS instead of msds, when it was made more universally the same internationally. Still the same thing, and it stayed with a lot of the US formatting, so same-same

Panther is correct. If you are required to use a chemical, ANY CHEMICAL as part of your job, you have to be given access to the SDS. Even products like WD40, brake cleaner, or trans fluid in a shop. If a company is small enough or fly-by-night enough NOT to create an SDS, damn sure don't trust what's in their product. 
 

 SDSs give you lots of info about the toxicity and how to store it or handle a spill or fire involving the product , but don't give use instructions. Also, the SDS applies to the product as sold not as used. This means if the product has to be diluted before use, the toxicity and PPE on the SDS may be overkill for the diluted product you actually come in contact with. Our main product is like that. 
 

the other reason label instructions are important are the dilution rates. Our main product can be diluted at ratios from 4 ozs per gallon to 32ozs per gallon depending on the application. Our disinfectant claims are at 5 or 7 ozs per gallon. So if you are mixing it stronger than necessary you are increasing your exposure needlessly and wasting money and product. As hard as it can be to get disinfectants right now, that's a key point. 

Appleseed said:

In reply to ShawnG :

It still is when used correctly.

Word.  I've been looking for some A cloth to form an insulator between the exhaust and interior of my Spitfire.  

No one should be spraying any type of chemicals as part of their job without training and access to SDSs. 

So, I just left the training meeting. It was two salesmen of the fogger, and one lady from the main campus (where I work is a branch, despite having significantly higher enrollment. 

It may have been a little tense. Due to me.

I asked if this was a EPA "list N" chemical, and they sort of evaded.

My brief research indicated the person who applied the fogger could be held libel, so I asked about that, and was told I was part of a family, and that wasn't the case. Maybe ten people there to witness.

I explained that the CDC recommends a two step cleaning, with the fogger being step two behind you know, cleaning (disinfectant wipedown). We're doing the fogger between classes, which all agreed was better than nothing.

I asked, and a MSDS will be provided, though not available today.

It appears these foggers are used in ambulances and the like, and people are having respiratory trouble as a result of its use. Looks like I have some more research to do.

Edit: Our product appears to be largely hydrogen peroxide. Doesn't sound too bad.

You're asking good questions and doing what you should. Stick to it.
 

When I'm at work tomorrow I'll hunt down a link to the EPA statement about fogging. Once you get the SDS I'll show you how to pull the full label off the EPA site. That way you've got full information and can make informed decisions. 

It might be helpful to understand the difference between "fogging" and "spraying ". It's all about droplet size. Fogging is a smaller droplet that stays suspended in the air  whereas spraying results in larger drops that settle on surfaces. There are legal definitions based on a cut off size that I can't recall at the moment. 
 

Peroxide is probably a best case scenario although it can still be irritating if inhaled. Most likely the reports of issues are from repeated inhalation of disinfectant hanging in the air. Proper respirator use during application is important even when doing legal "spray" application. Unfortunately these days correct respirators aren't always easy to come by. 

In reply to wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) (Forum Supporter) :

That sounds like what we're using. People here were having trouble early on mostly from incorrect mask usage (noses sticking out) in the buses which are fairly confined spaces. I haven't received any complaints in some time. Hopefully you'll have similar good luck. 

We get one of these:

and one of these:

They are called misters, for what it's worth.

Copy of SDS (MSDS) here. Not that this should be of any real interest to anyone but me. My mind is signifigantly more at ease knowing this is largely hydrogen peroxide. 

If they had communicated clearly from the start and I could have done my due diligence beforehand, we all could have avoided the discomfort of this afternoon. Finding out we had a meeting Monday, and finding out what it was about yesterday is not the way to have a calm orderly training session.

for Uber - Lyft drivers  is there some kind of Covid "flea bomb"  that you can put in your car at the end of the day and let it kill the "Covid coodies" overnight ?   and leave no smell or a nice smell for the morning ?

wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) (Forum Supporter) said:

Edit: Our product appears to be largely hydrogen peroxide. Doesn't sound too bad.

That depends on...

1. What concentration? A 3% solution isn't bad, but I wouldn't want it on my good clothes. Spraying a 30% solution, and I'd want a Hazmat suit and full body respirator. If they're insane enough to load the fogger with a 70% solution, you're in rocket monopropellant territory.

2. What chemicals it might come in contact with? Working with it around acetone, for example, is a hard no.

Umm.
 

We had a paint stripper foisted on us by a sales rep. It was some high concentration of hydrogen peroxide.

It was fine on aluminum but it ate a bronze head tube badge right off of a bicycle frame that I put in the tank.

You guys are right about  high concentrations of h2o2, but those aren't used as EPA registered disinfectants. At least not at correct use dilution. It would like be in the 3% range five or take. Possibly less if combined with another active. 
 

According to the SDS, that product is not largely hydrogen peroxide. That's only 1-5%. 
 

It's mostly water. But there is other stuff too that can be harmful. 
 

But they are saying to use the product diluted 1:64. It's pretty thin stuff. It requires no PPEs. Even safety glasses and a mask are not required.