Cracked: The Occupy Wallstreet Generation

Otto Maddox wrote: Here is my low cost plan - Go to junior college for two years and take every class possible that will count towards your intended four year degree. After two years, transfer to a four year college. Finish your degree. Work part-time, maybe even close to full-time when you are going to junior college. Do all this really close to your parents' house so you can live at home and minimize transportation costs. Assuming you spent your high school summers making money, this plan might just leave you with zero debt and a nice degree.

Agreed. Another trick I learned was to take over the max. In my link to SPSU, you see that they have fees that max out at 15 hours. So if you take 20 hours, you are getting those last 5 for free, or viewed another way, you're getting a 25% discount.

But then they can't sit and omplain that they are in debt!

Otto Maddox wrote: Here is my low cost plan - Go to junior college for two years and take every class possible that will count towards your intended four year degree. After two years, transfer to a four year college. Finish your degree. Work part-time, maybe even close to full-time when you are going to junior college. Do all this really close to your parents' house so you can live at home and minimize transportation costs. Assuming you spent your high school summers making money, this plan might just leave you with zero debt and a nice degree.

I will submit my plan that I should have followed.

• Work, save up and/or solicit some funds from the folks.
• Get out of high school.
• Steal a page from the Aussies and go on "walkabout" for a year or two taking work as you can and paying your way around this or some other country. Get a lay of the land and find out who or what you are before your 20th birthday.
• Make up your mind as to what you want to do with the rest of your life.
• Go get it.

I went to EE school because that is what guys who were good at math and understood how things worked did when they thought the Navy recruiter was a lying douche and the Army guy gave long odds on you ever getting a gig flying a copter and you really couldn't stomach a 10yr hitch otherwise.

It worked out but... in hindsight, a year abroad would have been way less than that first year of college and the experience might just have opened doors that I never even knew existed at the time. Ofcourse... it could also have ended in a wash of tequila, hookers, a beheading and shallow grave in a small mexican border town but we will never know that now.

Bobzilla wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

SVreX wrote: You'll have to pay the living expenses whether or not you go to school. It's not part of the value of the education.

Yes but when you have to live in the dorms and pay the overpriced dorms and food plan it does.

So get out of it like I did, or pick a different college.

This. There are options. You have to be the one to take them.

That isn't always an option. There isn't a college near where you live that offers the degree you want. I mean in Kentucky there isn't a aerospace engineering program at any college (at least there wasn't when I started). Anyway the point is you can't discount living expenses from a college education. Whether you work or not you still have to pay them and the likelihood of being able to have a job which covers all those cost and college while going to college is extremely unlikely unless you can live with your parents (not always possible). So going back to my original point, the states (at least the ones I am familiar with) keeping cutting funding to higher education which is partly responsible for the rising cost of education.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

Otto Maddox wrote: Here is my low cost plan - Go to junior college for two years and take every class possible that will count towards your intended four year degree. After two years, transfer to a four year college. Finish your degree. Work part-time, maybe even close to full-time when you are going to junior college. Do all this really close to your parents' house so you can live at home and minimize transportation costs. Assuming you spent your high school summers making money, this plan might just leave you with zero debt and a nice degree.

Agreed. Another trick I learned was to take over the max. In my link to SPSU, you see that they have fees that max out at 15 hours. So if you take 20 hours, you are getting those last 5 for free, or viewed another way, you're getting a 25% discount.

Some schools work like that. Some don't and in a lot of places good luck getting all your classes to line up where you can actually take that many classes especially when you get to your upper level classes.

Life lesson - You can always find obstacles if you look for them. Instead of thinking of why something will not work, spend your time on thinking why something will.

Josh wrote:

tuna55 wrote: Who decides that that is the point of the government, you?

Well, yeah! That's kind of the point! We're all supposed to decide what we want our government to be,

Ahh, thanks. Yes, we have a process for that, it's called an amendment. It requires an overwhelming majority to implement, and thusly, reflects the will of the people. Excellent point, and thanks for helping me make it. Now tell me where the amendments are for all of the things you're speaking of?

not to steer the thread down yet another path...After re-reading my posts, and considering the feedback I have received, I plan on going back to finish the degree I started, and soon. I thought a lot about it after what was posted here. Im not entirely sure about how that is going to happen, but I plan to:

Meet with a counselor to determine what degree Im closest to with the credits I already have. I was originally a business major, but since I now know its unlikely that I will need a business degree to get whichever job I will be looking for next, which specific degree is moot.

Once I determine the objective, I will be able to determine the cost. I have a little bit in savings...but SWMBO and I are looking to buy some land - its very cheap right now and we are pretty sure its at the bottom, and will be heading back up in value soon. Im not sure how that savings will play out.

I plan to attend night classes, so it wont be full time. Less hours = less cost per quarter (yes, my school is still quarterly), but it also means less grant or scholarship money available. I will meet with a financial officer at the school to determine what options are available where cash is concerned. There may be grants offered in Ohio that I dont know about...A search of the Ohio website was helpful, but basically said "go ask your school to help, not teh int3rwebzorz", so Im going to do that.

I will be working full time, but Im stretched pretty thin as it is, and we are looking at a major purchase in the next several months, so Im going to have to cut costs to make it work. We are likely to lose our fancy pants DVR and on demand digital cable, among other things.

Ive already spoken to my employer about any compensation they provide to students...nada. ...but they will offer me a 10% raise when Im finished. Also, I believe Im not required to make payments on my current education debt while Im back in school, I will check that with my financial aid office as well. So that will help too. It may be possible to obtain my degree without incurring too much more debt...I dunno.

I just wanted to say that Im willing to put my money where my mouth is, literally. Any factual, detailed advice would be welcome. I may start a new thread once Im underway and have actual factual detailed questions. Please dont make me get out the flamesuit...this is real life, not bench racing. I appreciate the knowledge base here in a grand way, even if I dont always care for the opinion base

In reply to 4cylndrfury:

Get on Fastweb. They have tons and tons of scholarships from different organizations to apply to.

In reply to 4cylndrfury:

Great plan. Great attitude!

In reply to racerdave600:

Very well put.

Ok so just so people understand where I am coming from let me tell my life story. I went to high school in a small town in rural KY. In high school, I did soccer, track, academic team, Boy Scouts (and became an Eagle Scout) and BETA club plus working odd jobs like a janitor at a small office, mucking out an old pig barn, etc. I did Kentucky's Governor Scholar Program which you get into based on essays, SAT scores and grades and only 1000 students from KY get in. That program means that I could get "full" tuition scholarships any where in KY. I graduated with a 3.9 GPA and in the top 10 in my class of 400. I also got a 32 (out of 36) overall on the ACT with a 36 in science and 35 in math. I visited 19 colleges during high school and applied to 13 (most of them state schools with one school that was a stretch). My parents from my grandmother's estate had set up a fund for my college education which when I entered college had about $20k in it. I received scholarships from a number of schools including two "full" tutition scholarships (they cover 15 hours a semester). I decided to go to the University of Alabama Huntsville because at the time it was rated by US Newsweek as the best deal for college in the southest and they offered me a full tuition scholarship. I also entered college with 9 credit hours already done because of AP credit. During college, I majored in mechanical engineering and did the NASA Great Moonbuggy Race (we won best design and the safety award during my time as assistant team lead), Formula SAE (which I was assistant team lead of and then later team lead) and Baja SAE. I easily pulled at least 100 hour weeks every week on school work and my activities (generally with at least one all nighter a week). I worked an internship one summer and a research program another summer. By the time I was done, I had spent around $34k in between living cost, books, summer tutition (the scholarship didn't pay for summer classes), lab fees, etc. So I left school with $6k in debt.

I am not complaining about my debt it is small and I was able to find a job when I graduated. The point of this is that what if a student doesn't have $20k saved up before they enter college or if they don't get the opportunities I had. That debt can rack up quick even if they try to do things right ie chose a cheap state school. The simple fact is that education cost have skyrocketed, due to a number of things. One is a waste in the education system. Trust me there is a lot of it. Two is states cutting funding to schools. Three lack of grants being given. I know at UAH half the money that comes into the school comes from research grants which are either given by the national government or more commonly by private industry. Well in Huntsville with the recent defense cuts and NASA cuts guess what those companies can't afford to give grants to the university and therefore less money coming in and tuition goes up.

93EXCivic wrote: In reply to 4cylndrfury: Get on Fastweb. They have tons and tons of scholarships from different organizations to apply to.

Thanks, I had no idea it existed...

4cylndrfury wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: In reply to 4cylndrfury: Get on Fastweb. They have tons and tons of scholarships from different organizations to apply to.

Thanks, I had no idea it existed...

You will get a lot of email from them but I got a scholarship that I applied for off that site so I think it was worth.

Again, you don't go unless you can pay for it. You don't go to a restraunt expectingthem to feed you and not know how to pay for it. you don't fill up your car and not plan on paying the attendant. Same for college.

Choices have consequences. You make the best choices you can, and learn to live with those consequences. It's called life. Welcome to it.

Otto Maddox wrote: Here is my low cost plan - Go to junior college for two years and take every class possible that will count towards your intended four year degree. After two years, transfer to a four year college. Finish your degree. Work part-time, maybe even close to full-time when you are going to junior college. Do all this really close to your parents' house so you can live at home and minimize transportation costs. Assuming you spent your high school summers making money, this plan might just leave you with zero debt and a nice degree.

This is what I did and it worked for me. However, that was 35 years ago...I realize it isn't necessarily so simple anymore.

In reply to SVreX:

Look, I know this place has become increasingly hostile to all but the most right-wing views lately, but the truth is that the opinion presented by most of the people here is NOT anywhere near aligned with the general public. In polls, a majority of people consistently support universal health care. Approval numbers for the OWS movement are double that of the Tea Party. A majority support raising the top tax rates. Approval ratings for the current Congress are dismal. I might be the only person IN HERE saying things that you don't like but if you're going to accuse me of trying to shape the world to my personal desires you have got to look in the damn mirror, sir.

I'm done, maybe with this forum in general, but at least with this discussion, because more and more it's like talking to a wall that's trying to spit on you. You (and most conservatives lately) act as though you possess some sort of absolute truth about the way the world must be, and I don't think anyone has the right to act that way. But when one side isn't interested in reaching any sort of compromise or even understanding what other people have to say, nobody wins.

And then there's this: "Sure there's excess. $200 toilet seats, $500 hammers. But they exist in EVERY facet of government (NASA is certainly a terrible offender). There is no government effort that is without excess. If you are unwilling to cut from the arts or NASA, you are unwilling to cut their excess."

By this ridiculous logic, what ISN'T excess? You're talking about piddly, little tiny amounts of money in the grand scheme. Money that wouldn't even get noticed in other parts of the budget. And the returns from these investments have MADE the amazing world we live in. If governments don't do these things, they just don't get done, and we are ALL worse off for it. You can't put your head in the dirt and dismiss the real progress things like NASA create, just because it doesn't fit in your rigid dogma that defines anything you don't personally want right now as "waste". That attitude is short sighted, selfish, and more importantly stifles human progress. I thoroughly and proudly reject that definition of "excess". But I know you're not going to hear it. You're going to frame the debate not as reasoned, thoughtful choices about how to allocate our resources for our maximum benefit, but as a simplistic binary waste/don't waste choice as if ANY expenditure is on the verge of bankrupting the country (except for the much larger ones you want to ignore), because that's how this never-compromise style of argument works. It sucks. It seems like it might spell the end of the progress of an amazing nation (there are a lot of horrible things about China, but at least their government is investing all they can to ensure that they'll be our academic and technological superiors before long). And because it's so draining and pointless to interact with anyone who thinks this way, I give up, just like so many of our leaders have.

Just checked in on this thread since it built up a good page count. Interesting perspectives. For the less than wealthy, part of the college equation is working out some sense of leverage and risk. Beyond a parking lot for teenagers to mature for a while, the idea is prep for a career. My office mate is new to the workforce and close to 200k in debt. OTOH, he's an oncology surgeon and while he was suffering during internship, residency and fellowship, he'll probably clear $500k this year - point being he chose a path that while expensive, has a good payoff.

One poster made the point of careers where the payoffs are uncertain like creative arts and that throughout history mankind as done creative work... good sentiment, but mostly Joe Peasant wasn't the guy with leisure time for creative pursuits (unless he had a wealthy patron) - more likely, the wealthy folk had the time and resources for those kinds of things - Joe Peasant was more likely a subsistence farmer just trying to pay the rent and feed the family. Not that I'm opposed to creative pursuits - I'd love to have a patron who let me make self-propelled metal sculpture all the time.

My take on the US is that the original intent was for an equal shot at freedoms/success/pursuing our dreams. At one point that seemed to be about having a large, fairly well-educated middle class. That seems to be disappearing or at least there's a diminished expectation where we're now heading towards a society with much wider gaps in those who've made it and those who slog it out to scratch out a living.

I get it that there's a bunch of people pissed that they followed the formula and it isn't working as they were taught or expected, but pitching a tent in a park and whining about the man and your student loans is not the route to changing anything meaningful. Maybe they didn't learn anything - what's that saying, no government wants citizens so educated they are capable of throwing out said government.

Datsun1500 wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: The point of this is that what if a student doesn't have $20k saved up before they enter college or if they don't get the opportunities I had.

What do you do if the car is out of gas and you have no money? You figure it out. Look at all of the opportunity and help you had and you still think it is unfair.... I really don't get adding in the living expenses and somehow thinking that is part of the cost of college. That is a cost of life. So at this point we have people living off of student loan money instead of working and now think it is unfair that they need to pay it back. I will take that deal, give me a loan for 4 years worth of living expenses, I will travel the world with it, then ask the lender to "forgive" the loan...

I AM NOT ASKING FOR FORGIVENESS OF LOANS. I am just saying that we should as a nation reconsider what we think is important. We are willing to spend billions of dollars propping up nations, fight two wars, prop up lazy bums who don't do anything. Maybe it is time to take some time to look at our education system and try to do some reform (cut the waste and make sure there is adequate funding). We ARE already falling behind China and India in terms of science and math. How do you expect us to remain a competitive nation if we don't have educated engineers, biologist, physicist, etc? Let's just say berkeley the long term and worry about right now like we have been doing. That has worked so well for us. I am not asking for college for all. Hell college can stay at around the same price it is now but I know it won't. It will keeping rising much faster then inflation until only the super rich can afford to go.

oldtin wrote: My take on the US is that the original intent was for an equal shot at freedoms/success/pursuing our dreams. At one point that seemed to be about having a large, fairly well-educated middle class. That seems to be disappearing or at least there's a diminished expectation where we're now heading towards a society with much wider gaps in those who've made it and those who slog it out to scratch out a living. I get it that there's a bunch of people pissed that they followed the formula and it isn't working as they were taught or expected, but pitching a tent in a park and whining about the man and your student loans is not the route to changing anything meaningful.

This is exactly my point. The occupy wall street people are doing it wrong and have lot of stupid ideas but at the same time there does need to be change made to the education system.

I agree that we need to reconsider what is "important." Considering a MANDATORY college degree is not important. Wanna know why we're falling behind? Trade skills are disappearing. We're not MAKING anything.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but everyone isn't going to go to college for 4 years, get a degree and end up making $200k a year guaranteed. Guess what, not everyone gets the same shot. Not everyone takes the same choices. There are plenty of jobs, careers etc that are great choices for people not wanting to waste $30k and 4 years on a worthless degree taught by arrogant professors that understand theory, but have no clue how that equates to the real world.

In reply to Josh:

Compromise is a two-way process.

You claim that those who disagree with you have the conviction of their absolute truth. Yet, you steadfastly stick by your own position. If "conservatives" don't have the right to act that way, neither do liberals.

You should also post your definition of a conservative. It only confuses the issue when the baseline isn't precise.

Bobzilla wrote: I agree that we need to reconsider what is "important." Considering a MANDATORY college degree is not important. Wanna know why we're falling behind? Trade skills are disappearing. We're not MAKING anything. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but everyone isn't going to go to college for 4 years, get a degree and end up making $200k a year guaranteed. Guess what, not everyone gets the same shot. Not everyone takes the same choices. There are plenty of jobs, careers etc that are great choices for people not wanting to waste $30k and 4 years on a worthless degree taught by arrogant professors that understand theory, but have no clue how that equates to the real world.

I am well aware of that and I am not freaking asking for college for all. I think people need to be told they can learn a trade and still be successful. I have never once said that I don't think that. I also never said I was expecting to make $200k straight out of college. Yes we are lacking skilled tradesmen and we need that. But we also aren't graduating enough engineers, scientist, etc and we can't compete in a world market with a work force that is just lawyers, communications and arts majors. We need both the skilled tradesmen and the engineers and scientist. If we don't have an education system which provides both, then we as a nation aren't going to survive as the world's leading power. We NEED a top to bottom overhaul of the system.

Also your statement just comes across as though you hate colleges and all colleges are useless. I can say during my time in college I had many teachers who worked in the industry at one point or still were and were able to offer lots of teaching on not just theoretical stuff but also life in industry and for that matter life in general.

I have nothing against college. I am against the modern thought that unless you've been to college, you are an uneducated dolt that has no idea how the world works. In reality, about 70% of the "business" majors I see coming out of colleges have no clue how to actually run a business because they are taught out of date theory and ideas from professors that are more interested in selling their latest book than how things actually work. Most have never actually DONE what it is they are teaching.

That is my problem.

Bobzilla wrote: I have nothing against college. I am against the modern thought that unless you've been to college, you are an uneducated dolt that has no idea how the world works. In reality, about 70% of the "business" majors I see coming out of colleges have no clue how to actually run a business because they are taught out of date theory and ideas from professors that are more interested in selling their latest book than how things actually work. Most have never actually DONE what it is they are teaching. That is my problem.

If you can... Do.
If you can't... Teach.
If you can't teach... Teach gym.