Dear car sellers...

Would it be too much to ask to spend ten minutes cleaning out a vehicle in case the potential buyer doesn't quite enjoy wallowing in the same filth that you obviously need? And while you're at it, spend a little time to try and find the title?

I know that it's too much to expect properly working brakes on a truck that is listed for a good fivehundred bucks over KBB 'excellent' rating when it was mediocre at best.

What a waste of seven hours' driving time. I'm beginning to loathe car shopping out here.

What amazes me is when you CLEARLY see trash littering the inside of a vehicle for sale. I mean, a discarded cigarette pack (I guess that really makes me sound dated?) or a stray soda can I can almost forgive, but when it looks like the seller either lives in the car/truck or uses it as you substitute trash can....

And why folks think that it will be EASIER for you, the buyer, to get a title, when you, the seller couldn't just as easily get a replacement title....

But hey, the icing on the cake, when you question the seller about the condition of the vehicle or if the title is available, they act like an answer will endanger world peace. I bought my last 3 or 4 cars from the same guy, my mechanic, and while I have probably paid too much for a car from him more than once....I do have to hand it to the guy, I've NEVER had a problem with any car he sold me. No title "hiccups" or problems with a car that wouldn't pass the local smog inspection. ALL ran like champs for at least 12-18 months. Which isn't too bad for a SUB $3K dollar vehicle, if The People's Court is anything to go by.

Unfortunately, it isn't often you can buy a car from someone who really cares about cars.

integraguy wrote: And why folks think that it will be EASIER for you, the buyer, to get a title, when you, the seller couldn't just as easily get a replacement title.... But hey, the icing on the cake, when you question the seller about the condition of the vehicle or if the title is available, they act like an answer will endanger world peace.

Missing titles have been the #1 issue that has prevented me from buying cool cars. I live in MA, which requires all cars be titled, no exceptions. I live on the state line with NH, which is much more lax with titles and has more cheap, cool, late '80s/early '90s cars for sale than MA. I've had to let so many opportunities go because of missing titles, it's not funny. I always ask, "Is the car titled?" before I look at it. What grinds my gears the most is when the owner flat-out lies to me and says he has a title when he doesn't, or says he'll get a title AFTER I buy the car from him. Replacement NH titles can take months to get to the seller and MA won't issue replacement titles.

berkeley that noise.

I ALWAYS ask for additional pics of the interior among other things. If the car isn't clean, I'm not driving more than 20 minutes to see said turd.

I still don't understand this title thing.

I don't understand filthy cars period. Even if someone is not selling them, how can you concentrate on driving when you have thirty receipts and pieces of paper flying around in the back seat because of the wind? Everyone always gets into my car and says "Wow your car is clean." No it isn't, I'm just not lazy!

The PO of my G20 had it for one month.. in that time, she managed to fill the ash tray to the point that crap spilled everywhere when I opened it to look- turns out there was no room left in the tray because of the several dollars in change underneath the ash. Among all the Starbucks cups and receipts under the seats I found the plates and old insurance card from her previous vehicle.

There's a little plastic insert under the e-brake that she spilled nail polish on, then made it worse trying to remove it. I spent hours getting the coffee drink stains out of the carpet, and the sticky coffee drink residue out of the crevices on the console. To this day, the window switches remain a little bit sticky.

Her cousin installed a new cheap head unit, then left his tools in the center console. (Of course, the +12 power lead was just stretched straight across the engine bay and not secured) I guess you can never have too many cheap screwdrivers or pairs of side cutters.

I cannot believe it's possible to trash a vehicle this much in a month, but she showed me the paperwork to prove she really only had it for a month.

I love buying filthy cars.

Nothing sells a car like a clean interior, and anybody who has sold cars knows that's the #1 rule. Conversely, nothing kills a sale, and drives the price down like a filthy interior, and usually they clean up in under a few hours.

Twin_Cam wrote: I don't understand filthy cars period. Even if someone is not selling them, how can you concentrate on driving when you have thirty receipts and pieces of paper flying around in the back seat because of the wind? Everyone always gets into my car and says "Wow your car is clean." No it isn't, I'm just not lazy!

i pretty much live in my work truck, it is filthy inside. there is usually room for a passenger. one day i keep saying it will be cleaned out, but it's hard to get motivated to clean out the truck i am in all the time when i do not have to be in it.

i do clean out cars i am selling.

When I bought my M3 CPO from a BMW dealer back in '02 I went to pick it up and it was filthy inside. Like coffee gunk in the console filthy. I asked for it to be detailed and they told me that costs $150. They changed their mind and came running before I even got back to my car to leave but... seriously, who does that? Who drops almost $20k and does not expect a decently clean car?

I get pissed when I go look at any car that someone selling and didn't even bother to try to impress me. Unless its a parts car... then for the right price I'm cool with blood and teeth on the dash.

zomby woof wrote: I still don't understand this title thing.

Can one of you 'mericun's splain this title thing to us poor schmucks up north? I've honestly never understood how this works either. In Alberta, I can show up with a piece of paper saying the car has been sold to me (signed by the previous owner, this is know as a "bill of sale" up here) and the car becomes registered under my name when I pay $70. Of course, if the previous owner does not remove his registration, I can't register the car.

In Ontario, when you buy a car, the owner signs the ownership, and puts the mileage on it. You fill out your info, and take it to the ministry office, where you pay the sales tax on the wholesale value, or whatever you tell them you paid (office dependent) , and pay $10 to have it put in your name. If the ownership has been lost (extremely rare), you fill out the application, supply a bill of sale, and pay the $10, plus the $10 replacement fee.

My buddy once took his Contour in to be detailed, and it was so filthy, they told him the interior would have to be cleaned before they could detail it, and they didn't provide that service.

In most states, when the car is purchased new the DMV issues a title. The car cannot be transferred with the registration, has to be by title. Each new owner gets a new title from DMV. This is general and can vary from state to state. Old cars, not sure what year, don't always have titles.

Car titles are kinda strange here in America. Perhaps a lawyer type can explain it better, but from my understanding, the manufacturer issues you a Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin (MCO) on a new vehicle or trailer. You take that certificate, usually printed up real fancy like a stock certificate (if you've ever seen one of those) and go to your state, where you surrender this actual birth certificate to the state, never to see it again, for which the state gives you a "title" to your own vehicle. Some people argue that the state now owns your vehicle (MCO) and is just letting you use it. Now, when you sell the vehicle, the new owner has the "title" transferred to his name. The MCO is gone. Do states burn these? Shred them? Stick them in a file? Who knows, you'll never see it again. When you move out of state or buy a vehicle out of state, the new state transfers the title from the old state, near as I can tell. I think there's some inter-state communicaton like "we got your Cheby, VIN xxxxx and we're claiming it as ours now." Additionally, I think there are a few states that don't mess with titles on older vehicles. I'm not sure how they work it out, but it may be more of the BoS type thing. Here in AR, you can register an antique vehicle (25+YO) with a BoS, proof of insurance and proof of owning another non-antique vehicle (daily driver). They will give you a title with those items. Ask me how I know that one.

Oh, and continuing on boxhead Tim's rant, I hate it when they say they have a title, but what they have is a title from 2 owners ago that was never transferred down the line. That is almost worthless, except as a conversation piece.

Doc said: the manufacturer issues you a Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin (MCO) on a new vehicle

I got one of those when I bought a new bike in the states. I could take it to the ministry office to get an ownership. When you buy a new car here, you get an ownership. That's your registration paper. If you lose it, you just go the the ministry, and ask for a new one, and pay your $10. If you buy a used vehicle, and it hasn't been changed over by the previous buyer(s), it doesn't usually matter. You are supposed to change it within 6 days, but almost nobody does for parts, or project cars.

The title issue here ranges from silly in some states to utterly ridiculous in others.

And unlike Europe (where the realities of the body as a replacment part are recognized in the law), the obsession with tying the car identity to the body shell leads to really weird arguments between car guys (if a car is wrecked to the point of being unrepairable, it ceases to legally exist, you can replace every piece of a car's body one part at a time and it's legal, but do it all at once and it's grand theft... etc)

Here in MD, I went into see the title supervisor (the supposed expert on MD law who deals with all the little obscurities) and asked the simple question: I have a car with a notarized bill of sale, but no title, and it's not from a "no title" state. Assuming that I can't get a replacement title from some previous owner (deceased, etc), how do I title the car in Maryland?

You would have thought I'd just asked how I could teach myself to levitate. She just looked at me strangely and said "you have to have a title". I attempted to rephrase the question about four times... each time her answer was "but mine goes to 11".... I mean "you have to have a title".

She nearly ran from the room screaming "illegal!" when I said that I could have my Dad in NC simply post a title bond and get himself a NC title for the car then sell it to me for $1...

I clearly understand "zero tolerance" for auto theft and fraud but not to have a civil procedure to remedy what appears to me to be a common occurance is just stupid.

Bill

Zomby, an Ontario "ownership" and a Michigan "title" are the same thing. When I bought my Miata used here in Michigan, the previous owner simply signed over the title with the mileage and purchase price to me. I took that to the DMV and got a new title in my name. When I moved here there were no hassles changing my Ontario ownership papers to Michigan titles on the vehicles I imported at the time.

What if you lose it?

I think each state has some sort of provision for the current registered owner in that state to get a replacment copy of a title.

But only him. Not anyone else (with a few exceptions state by state)

I dated a girl once that had a new BMW. Got in it the first time and it had macaroni and cheese stuck to it everywhere inside! She really didn't care at all about keeping it clean. I had to clean it before we left, disgusting.

In reply to racerdave600: Ahh, Dave, ahh... that's not a "keeper." Or is that why you only dated her "once?"

Really, that one is kinda like:
Q: Why shouldn't you pick up girls at the laundramat? A: Because any woman that can't afford her own washing machine will never be able to support you.

In other words, mac and cheese all over the inside of the new bimmer, hate to see her housekeeping skills.

zomby woof wrote: What if you lose it?

Then you sell the car to some poor schmuck on CL and let him figure it out.

wcelliot wrote: And unlike Europe (where the realities of the body as a replacment part are recognized in the law), the obsession with tying the car identity to the body shell [...]

Yes and no. In the UK, a large part of the vehicle's identity was tied to the engine number to point that the oldtimers are still obsessing over engine numbers. Heck, some of my Italian bikes that were UK bikes from new had the frame number stamped into the engine by hand (making it look like a bad chop job) because back in the 70s/early 80s you couldn't register a vehicle without one.

The current European registration certificates have both in them but at least in the UK, the engine number has grown somewhat optional.

The part that I meant was more reasonable is that there are actually formulas to follow in determining whether you can keep the car's identity intact (or, in the UK tradition, get a "Q" plate which is essentially a kit car designation).

Even when the engine played a primary role, there was a legal way to replace it and retain the original car's identity. Or to replace the body shell (with new or used) if the old one was rusted or wrecked.

Heck, a good percentage of uber high dollar exotic cars don't have any of their original body left. Heck, even in the moderatly expensive world of Yenko's and Shelby's, how many of those cars actually have all of their orignal bodies?

In the US, there are no such provisions and that $3M car (or that wrecked Shelby) would have technically have ceased to exist...

A few years ago I was "stuck" behind a guy in the smog inspection line (in Memphis, you MUST get your car, of ANY age smog inspected). The first step in the "inspection" is that they match your car's VIN# to the registration. Well, his car was so old, they couldn't locate the VIN in any of the usual places so they wouldn't inspect it and he couldn't get a license.