Depression

Definitely be keeping you in my thoughts.

So sorry to hear this. I can't imagine what you and your family are going through. Our thoughts are with you and especially your nieces/nephews.

Thanks for the kind words, everybody. I'm okay, really. The main reason I posted was to hopefully elicit responses like Aaron's:

aeronca65t wrote: My extended family has been through some hard feelings recently. I've kept my distance from some of my relatives as a result. But some of the "difficult" members of our family may also be dealing with unseen issues. Your comments remind me that I have to go back and try a little harder to understand some of the family members I've avoided.

I understand the tenacity of depression and the futility in believing you could avert disaster with a couple of well-timed words or a different attitude. You can, however, change your own heart, and hopefully keep it open for the people who will need you. Start now--it's free!

Margie

As someone who has really been struggling with my own happiness lately, I've often thought about those who are not nearly as self-aware as myself. I'm not depressed, but I'm always looking for ways to adjust my outlook, or my life, so that I spring out of bed in the morning excited for the day.

Having known quite a few people who suffer from clinical depression, they get got stuck in that feeling of being stuck. They felt "this is my life, and there is no way to escape it." Kids, house payments, debt, bad marriages, or lack of day-to-day interest can really take its toll after 5-10-15-50 years of the same-old-same-old.

One thing I tell others, and one thing I continuely tell myself, is that we are not stuck. There is nothing keeping me from selling all my stuff, saving my paychecks, and riding my bicycle across the US. There is nothing stopping me from apologizing to my girlfriend and leaving her. There is nothing stopping someone from telling their kids "daddy is going to go on an adventure, but he'll be back in a month with good stories".

I hate that our corporate society needs a medical excuse to LIVE LIFE. If you have cancer, your boss will tell you to take as much time as you need. If you have a kid you get 3 months off. If you have depression, your employee health care will pay to keep you medicated for decades.

Why can't employers just understand that some of us need to stretch our legs sometimes. Sometimes it's a beautiful day and I want to enjoy it, damnit.

After years of being told, "no, you must work" your mind just denies you any joy. It become resistant to denial of what your psyche wants. Your mind has given up trying to be free.

In reply to PHeller:

Sorry man, but you don't understand depression. It's not a state of mind, it's an illness. A chemical imbalance in the brain. You can't talk your way out of it.

And you don't believe that our brains can't change as a result of our environment?

As someone suffering from ADHD, I'll bet that there are lots of people out there with ADHD who never notice it because of their environment. Try to sit me in front of computer and have me do data entry all day long and I sure as hell will notice my focus lacking. Other folks have no problems.

In reply to PHeller:

Depression isn't ADHD.

bravenrace wrote: Depression isn't ADHD.

Chemical imbalances in the brain.

In reply to PHeller:

Whatever. I have a lot of experience with depression, and know what I know. You can think whatever you want, but as long as you think that all people with depression can just snap out of it by their own will, you will be grossly misunderstanding the disease. That's what people though way back in the 70's. We know better now.

I have sympathy for your family. My FIL commited suicide 8 years ago, leaving my wife and her 3 sisters (one of which was 15 at the time) without a father. It was a lifetime struggle for him and all his family. Got to a point of the boy who cried wolf. I personally ignored a phone call and tear filled voice mail from him the day before. The grief and guilt on the family was tough to endure. My 15 yo SIL ended up moving in with my wife and I after that. That's way more guilt and emotion than a girl that age should ever experience

Not everyone that commits suicide has depression, and not everyone that has depression commits suicide.

I don't think that people can talk themselves out of depression, it's a chemical imbalance that isn't self correcting.

But you can't tell me that if you stuck someone in a cage their entire lives that by the end of it their brains would show considerable physiological differences from those that had spent the entire life traveling the world. Maybe we're passing those imbalances, or those genetic defects from one generation to the next.

I believe that our environment affects our physiology.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'll be damned if someone says "your just depressed, take some meds" when in reality its my desire to escape the cage.

I sympathize with Marjorie's loss. I've had friends and family members who suffered from depression and suicide.

But I'm not one to say "that sucks" and go back to my coffee. I guess I should...

PHeller wrote: Not everyone that commits suicide has depression, and not everyone that has depression commits suicide. I don't think that people can talk themselves out of depression, it's a chemical imbalance that isn't self correcting. But you can't tell me that if you stuck someone in a cage their entire lives that by the end of it their brains would show considerable physiological differences from those that had spent the entire life traveling the world. Maybe we're passing those imbalances, or those genetic defects from one generation to the next. I believe that our environment affects our physiology. I guess what I'm saying is that I'll be damned if someone says "your just depressed, take some meds" when in reality its my desire to escape the cage. I sympathize with Marjorie's loss. I've had friends and family members who suffered from depression and suicide. But I'm not one to say "that sucks" and go back to my coffee. I guess I should...

There is clinical depression due to chemical imbalances in the brain. But surely you can just be depressed, right? Your job sucks, your dad just died, you have no friends close by, etc. People commit suicide due to clinical depression and just plain old depression. Sucks either way.

I have to agree with PHeller. I am sure there are some people who have a chemical imbalance which leaves them in a bind, but from personal experience when things get really bad and overwheming depression is a very real thing, not connected with anything else.

bravenrace wrote: In reply to PHeller: Whatever. ...

Let's please not turn the thread about depression into an argument.

In reply to bravenrace:

Is it safe to agree with him about the general attitude toward mental health in the US isn't all that great? And that the "work ethic" we have also does a great job at exposing even marginal mental health problems with out wanting to fix them?

I can't relate to any mental health issues, but it sure seems as if we are not a very compassionate society about those issues.

JThw8 wrote: First, my condolences on your loss. Second, you're insights are very astute, having lived my life on both sides of the fence I have seen and experienced much of what you say. To many people I come off as a right shiny happy person, I'm ok with that, I went through the struggles earlier in my life and came very close to reaching a similar conclusion as your sister in law, some timely intervention means Im here today to annoy you all. But I've also had to change my attitude to keep going, I have little tolerance for anything which takes me to a negative state so if folks dont understand my history it just comes across as Im an ass, but hey, Im still an alive ass so Im ok with it ;)

Same, went through a really tough couple of years a while back, thanks to an understanding supportive wife and a lucky break in circumstances I'm still alive and kicking. Depression is rough, and it's really hard to understand from the outside looking in what is going on with someone suffering from it.

It definitely takes a change in mindset to keep from slipping back in to it. Looking back now I can't believe I let myself get as bad as I did. The biggest thing I learned is that no matter how much I want to I can't isolate myself, that just makes things worse in the long run.

JThw8 wrote: But I've also had to change my attitude to keep going, I have little tolerance for anything which takes me to a negative state so if folks dont understand my history it just comes across as Im an ass, but hey, Im still an alive ass so Im ok with it ;)

e_pie wrote: It definitely takes a change in mindset to keep from slipping back in to it. Looking back now I can't believe I let myself get as bad as I did. The biggest thing I learned is that no matter how much I want to I can't isolate myself, that just makes things worse in the long run.

For those of you that have dealt with this personally, was it clinically diagnosed? If so, did you take medications for it? If not medication, what lifestyle or attitude changes were necessary to help with it?

bravenrace wrote: In reply to Duke: Not to change the subject, but depression can be caused by a lot of things, some of which are treatable, but not curable, meaning you can't "power through it".

QFT

BTDT - it never ends, it just goes into hiding once in a while.

I understand what it feels like to feel hopeless

I understand what the emotional rock bottom feels like

I understand the desire to remove oneself from the Earth

I understand the mentality that "no counselor is going to tell me anything that will help my situation".

However, the collateral damage of actually going through with it is just horrible. It destroys way more lives than one.

Best wishes to your family, Margie. It's going to be a rough road in the next year.

PHeller wrote: For those of you that have dealt with this personally, was it clinically diagnosed? If so, did you take medications for it? If not medication, what lifestyle or attitude changes were necessary to help with it?

Yes Yes

In my case, the medication I'm on is enough to take the edge off (smallish dose, my choice). Without it, I'm not sure I'd have lived this long. The last 3 years has been very difficult for me and I'm only now seeing some light at the end of the tunnel. I went med free for the first 2 years of this "situation" and that was a major mistake on my part. It almost killed me - no joke.

Please get treated if you're depressed. I didn't say get medicated, but if it comes to that, don't be afraid to try it.

PHeller wrote:

JThw8 wrote: But I've also had to change my attitude to keep going, I have little tolerance for anything which takes me to a negative state so if folks dont understand my history it just comes across as Im an ass, but hey, Im still an alive ass so Im ok with it ;)

e_pie wrote: It definitely takes a change in mindset to keep from slipping back in to it. Looking back now I can't believe I let myself get as bad as I did. The biggest thing I learned is that no matter how much I want to I can't isolate myself, that just makes things worse in the long run.

For those of you that have dealt with this personally, was it clinically diagnosed? If so, did you take medications for it? If not medication, what lifestyle or attitude changes were necessary to help with it?

Yes, I was on Citalopram for 4 months, and for me the side effects were worse than the depression. It made the depression marginally better, but it did that at the cost of me caring about anything, I stopped caring about just about everything, started getting in trouble at work, house was a constant mess, etc. Also after I got on the meds was when the serious suicidal thoughts had started as well, they had been there before, but I had never seriously considered acting on it until I was on the meds. I think that was a side effect of the not caring any more. The thought of leaving my wife behind and how devastated she would be was honestly all that kept me going at the lowest point.

Luckily the situation that was at the root of my depression changed and I was able to get off of it. Even then it still took me over a year to bring myself back to normal afterwards. It's amazing how just one or two bad things can take over your life and spill over and compound on top of other minor things that would have normally never bothered you before.

But I made it out of the other end, and have definitely learned a lot about myself and depression in the process, so I guess it wasn't all for nothing.

bravenrace wrote: In reply to PHeller: Sorry man, but you don't understand depression. It's not a state of mind, it's an illness. A chemical imbalance in the brain. You can't talk your way out of it.

Huh? Actually talk therapy (ie, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) is one of the most effective treatments for depression. It's even more effective in the long run than anti-depressants. The protocol for major depression is to use anti-depressants short term and CBT or the like for the long term gain.

Maybe you meant you can't informally talk your way out of it, as in just say, this is dumb I shouldn't be depressed. In that case you are 100% correct. But CBT is very much a good treatment for depression, and that's all talk.

Sorry for the loss to your family Margie. I'm also sorry you're dealing with hindsight guilt. Thanks for the advice on avoiding that. I won't try to make you feel better with some internet "Chicken soup for the soul"-isms. Just please know that we all empathize. We also appreciate what you do and who you are.

Curmudgeon wrote: I have to agree with PHeller. I am sure there are some people who have a chemical imbalance which leaves them in a bind, but from personal experience when things get really bad and overwheming depression is a very real thing, not connected with anything else.

Very true, they're diagnosed differently though. Ie, depression in response to a negative life event can even be considered just normal, but if it persists you can be diagnosed with adjustment disorder. But if the depression wasn't triggered by a stressor there are diagnoses like major depressive disorder. It all depends on the cause, if any, how strong it is, and how long it persists. It's definitely something you should see a psychologist for! That's why they are around.

e_pie wrote:

PHeller wrote:

JThw8 wrote: But I've also had to change my attitude to keep going, I have little tolerance for anything which takes me to a negative state so if folks dont understand my history it just comes across as Im an ass, but hey, Im still an alive ass so Im ok with it ;)

e_pie wrote: It definitely takes a change in mindset to keep from slipping back in to it. Looking back now I can't believe I let myself get as bad as I did. The biggest thing I learned is that no matter how much I want to I can't isolate myself, that just makes things worse in the long run.

For those of you that have dealt with this personally, was it clinically diagnosed? If so, did you take medications for it? If not medication, what lifestyle or attitude changes were necessary to help with it?

Yes, I was on Citalopram for 4 months, and for me the side effects were worse than the depression. It made the depression marginally better, but it did that at the cost of me caring about anything, I stopped caring about just about everything, started getting in trouble at work, house was a constant mess, etc. Also after I got on the meds was when the serious suicidal thoughts had started as well, they had been there before, but I had never seriously considered acting on it until I was on the meds. I think that was a side effect of the not caring any more. The thought of leaving my wife behind and how devastated she would be was honestly all that kept me going at the lowest point. Luckily the situation that was at the root of my depression changed and I was able to get off of it. Even then it still took me over a year to bring myself back to normal afterwards. It's amazing how just one or two bad things can take over your life and spill over and compound on top of other minor things that would have normally never bothered you before. But I made it out of the other end, and have definitely learned a lot about myself and depression in the process, so I guess it wasn't all for nothing.

This is something I want to show/point out. You need to discuss this with your doctor. There are THOUSANDS of anti-depressants ot there. Citalopram was hardest for me because I couldn't (at all, nada, zip, zilch,sorry pal not today) find "happiness" in a sexual manner. I was on several before we got me to Lexapro (IIRC?) which seems to work best.

My point is.... if you are taking an anit-d and you experience side effects, talk to your doc ASAP. They can adjust and change to find what fixes your imbalance best.

as for CBT, I did that for about 8-9 months while figuring out my meds. To me it didn't help the symptoms/cause. Once I got regulated on meds, I stopped going. CBT, Meds etc are like anything else with mental illness. Some can get CBT to work for them, some need meds, some need both, some neither work. Each person is different in what makes them tick. So don't be suprised if what works for someone you know doesn't work for you.

Something else I want to add into this long ass post..... Depression is not something to be ashamed of. Don't be afraid to admit to it. Don't be afraid of how others willview you. Like anything else in life, if you ignore it or pretend it isn't there, you re only making it worse. Be proud of who you are. Be proud of what you have done. We all are different and some of us have had to fight a phyiscal obstacle. For some it's loss of limb, or debilitating infection. For some of us it's a chemical imbalance in the brain that messes everything up. Don't be ashamed or scared of it. There IS help out there. I know. I was there, afraid to tell anyone how I felt. Now I embrace it. I know that I have a limit, I know that I can't et past that limit without help and that is OK. We all need a little help from time to time.