Did the justice fit the crime?

trigun7469 wrote: In reply to thatsnowinnebago: I just think their are holes on both parts of this story. How would have the two eye witness known she was being raped, when she was on the ground passed out behind a dumpster? They were riding their bikes. I think there is a missing piece to the story, other then they stopped and he ran. How many women go to a frat party being completely innocent and in her testimony she accounts she was a deer in a headlights at the party. I don't agree with anything this guy did and believe that all fraternities and sororities should be banned and all students should live on campus.

You realize thinking like this is why something like less than 5% of sexual assaults result in convictions. Frat/Sorority parties are where lots of people go to get drunk and some of them choose to have consensual sex during/at/after them. A lot of rapists like to use this as an opportunity to commit assault . Attitudes like yours promote a rape culture that implies that this is somehow acceptable and the victims have some fault in this like they should have known.

As to what happens to the rapist I hope he serves his sentence and at some point takes responsibility for his actions and is not a threat to anyone else. I do not hope he "gets what's coming" in prison. Rape of a rapist is still rape and society should not tolerate it and definitely should not encourage it.

I hate predators.. of any kind

Also, do what you can to improve your own corner of the world: If you see something, say something; if someone needs help, get them to safety; and treat each other with some respect, dignity and fairness.

In reply to nocones:

an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, but it's amazing how people will reconsider doing things with just the threat it could happen to them in return. Really, the waste of lifes father should have "20 minutes of action" with Lexington Steele or Ron Jeremy, see how that 20 minutes of action really feels.

In no way do I want this following statement to sound like defense of anything at all occurring, but the words "frat party" just mean trouble. I've only been to 3 in my life, so it's not like I have tons of first hand experience, but in general, it's large groups of privileged douchebags all trying to out-douchebag each other. When their supervision always looked the other way growing up, being handed positions of power, even if imaginary inside the frat, and no current supervision or fear of repercussion, they go full retard. In general, these are worthless pieces of E36 M3 before they get there, it just multiplies once they're away from home and in packs. Whether its forcing freshman to drink themselves to death, tallying rapes, or parties turning into hundred person street fights, they have no repercussions.

Living near a pretty consistent top 10 party school in the country, that also held most rapes on campus for a few years as well, the shear volume of stuff that is never reported to authorities, or just blown off by authority figures is truly staggering. There were memos passed around near the end of the 90s even recommending anti-rape kits for people that just had to party constantly. A whistle, and a cork with a nail in it worn as a tampon. Should women need those things going out? No, they berking shouldn't. Should these "men" be raised to even remotely think this kind of behavior is ok? No the berkeley they shouldn't, and frankly their parents should be punished too.

Marjorie Suddard wrote: Misogynist E36 M3heads made me take a long break from here, but no more. I'll be right here when you have questions. I doubt you'll like the answers. Margie

i like this margie. i wish i could keep clicking +1 all night.

Thanks! And for anyone who is still confused about how sexual consent actually works, This should explain it.

I find this digusting, and I will confess I didn't read the whole thing, and won't. Can't.

I did notice, however, the frequent use of the words "intoxicated" and "unconscious", and saw the the victim referred to herself as having "blacked out".

I agree with the vast majority posting here, and also find the "What do you think happens at a frat party" comments repulsive. But it is also important to note that a true blackout is very different than being unconscious.

Blackouts are periods of amnesia caused by excessive alcohol consumption, where a person can actively engage in both normal routine behaviors and more aggressive behaviors like fighting or having sex. However, the person will have little to no recall of events that took place during the blackout period. The person is fully conscious, with no memory.

I have no idea whether she blacked out, became unconscious, or both. But a person who is experiencing a blackout can appear to be completely aware to people around them, which can make the issue of consent very "murky” at times.

It's a really important subject, and one we should teach our daughters (woman are significantly more prone to blackouts than men). We should be engaging in discussions about the dangers and frequency of alcohol-induced blackouts.

One of the best rising voices on the subject is Sarah Hepola, author of “Blackout: Remembering the Things I Drank to Forget”.

I am not excusing the jerk, but it is possible there is more to this story. As the science and understanding of alcohol-induced blackouts grows, I believe we will find the legal system being challenged in how we handle rape cases, and some will end in favor of the man.

My first inclination is to drag the guy from the bumper of my truck by his testicles. But my actual response is to teach my daughters about the dangers of alcohol abuse, the nature of blackouts, and the importance of understanding their self worth and strength is not measured in their capacity to down shots, or put themselves in compromising situations.

Marjorie Suddard wrote: Thanks! And for anyone who is still confused about how sexual consent actually works, This should explain it.

I like that, and will use it!

(but it doesn't cover blackouts)

I hate the whole "20 minutes of action" argument. In 20 minutes of action, I could go all Reservoir Dogs, rob a bank, and cap 3 fools in the head.

It doesn't matter the length of time it took to do something reprehensible. It matters how reprehensible the thing you did is. 20 minutes is more than enough to think "If I'm escorting this person out behind a dumpster, maybe I'm afraid of people catching me. If I'm afraid of people catching me, maybe I'm doing something I shouldn't be."

In reply to nocones: I do no agree with either of their behavior getting so drunk that you pass out at parties and rape, perhaps I didn't make it clear that rape is unforgivable. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt after watching the 30 for 30 about duke's team, after further reading and her account I was wrong, the judgment made on him is puzzling, based on his guilt. I believe that colleges that I have attended that do not have fraternities and sororities and require students to live on campus have a lower percentage of having these problems, and while this case has national attention, these situation still occur and often times are not reported, handled appropriately, or investigated at a professional level.

Marjorie Suddard wrote: And yet we raise our daughters to expect it, and blame them when they are.

I know you are speaking sarcastically to make a point. I have a 7 year old daughter and I'll not accept the argument that I am raising my daughter to expect or accept harassment in any form. I'm getting tired of the "dads enabling rape culture" undertones I am seeing. Some dads sure. This dad berkeley no. Not now. Not ever.

Threads like this where we see a pretty unanimous agreement on evil acts renew my faith in this group quite a bit. Glad to see we mostly agree on the level of evil involved here.

Anyone else find it heinous that both the dad and kid are STILL trying to paint this as two kids drunkenly, but consensually hooking up? How could ANYONE buy that!? I don't know about you guys, but my few mutually drunken hook-ups in college certainly weren't with unconscious women, behind a dumpster! And he was so sure she consented that he took off running when two guys showed up, and had to be physically apprehended? That the father sees such a clearly f***ed-up situation as "20 minutes of action" paints a pretty vivid picture of some deep issues at a family morality level. Kid probably never heard the word "no" in his entire life.

Huge props to the two grad students that stepped up and did the right thing, though.

In reply to pointofdeparture:

The victim's letter was to refute his BS testimony, which changed from his original statements when he found out she was unconscious and didn't remember anything. He could say anything and she could not refute it, which is exactly what his attorney said. Note that they had a go fund me type of page to raise money for the little E36 M3's legal defense. It was written very generically. I pity the fools that gave them money. Apparently some of the money was spent on private investigators trying to dig up dirt on the girl.

And to cloud the whole sexual assault situation up, don't forget the guy who had the girl make up a complete sexual assault charge against him. Turned out to be a complete fabrication, the school knows it and still won't rescind their ruling against the guy.

In reply to pointofdeparture:

Afluenza. The kid in Texas suffered from it as well and his parents seem about as clueless about their own culpability in making a monster.

View from an actual college age female: The blackout drunk argument is BS, that girl was raped. If you're fighting with a woman to the extent that she gets pine needles up her hoohah, you're not having sex. You're raping someone. If you feel the need to hide during and run afterwards, you're not having sex. You're raping someone. If you think that the woman "deserves this" or "should have expected this" during the act, you're not having sex. You're raping someone. If you're in a situation other than "Oh yes, I being of sound mind and body am agreeing to this," you're not having sex. You're raping someone. And if you excuse a rapist who was in any situation listed above, you're the reason why women carry pepper spray and knives. You're the reason we're afraid. A few of you don't seem to be getting that.

This entire terrible saga needs a little levity.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/TM2RUVnTlvs

Katie Suddard said: And if you excuse a rapist who was in any situation listed above, you're the reason why women carry pepper spray and knives. You're the reason we're afraid. A few of you don't seem to be getting that.

This is something that really frustrates me because it is so tragic. I belong to a local running club that is based largely on FaceBook, and there have frequently been discussions about where it is "safe" to run, fear of running alone, what kind of self defense items to carry (ranging from mace or small guns, up to large dogs). As a man, I feel "safe" everywhere, all the time. It is hard for me to not dismiss some of this as overly paranoid, but when I start hearing the first hand stories and see the statistics it is opening my eyes to the fact that women live in a somewhat different world of danger.

I start to understand why some women look afraid when I make eye contact with them while passing on a run. This makes me sad.

Ding ding ding! Yes, the fear is real. As are the reasons. Ask a female sometime if she personally knows or has known a woman who was raped. I have: One violently assaulted by a stranger (jumped in her car at an intersection), several molested by family members, and several more date-raped. I do not think I meet an unusual number of victims of sexual assault. It's just, you know, a thing.

I agree, though, levity is awesome--especially if it's provided by Amy Schumer. Though I hear she's fat, so not sure her opinion is valid.

Margie

trigun7469 wrote: In reply to nocones: I do no agree with either of their behavior getting so drunk that you pass out at parties and rape, perhaps I didn't make it clear that rape is unforgivable. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt after watching the 30 for 30 about duke's team, after further reading and her account I was wrong, the judgment made on him is puzzling, based on his guilt. I believe that colleges that I have attended that do not have fraternities and sororities and require students to live on campus have a lower percentage of having these problems, and while this case has national attention, these situation still occur and often times are not reported, handled appropriately, or investigated at a professional level.

You seem to still be confusing being charged with being convicted, although I'm not sure how.

The Duke players were charged and later the charges were dropped.

This case is about someone who was CONVICTED.

In reply to WilD:

You feel safe running EVERYWHERE? All the time?

LA Freeway? Industrial zone? Construction site? Prison yard? The Hood? I am absolutely confidant I can show you some neighborhoods in my town, and in yours, where you would not feel safe running.

I get your point, and I share your sadness.

FWIW, I never went to frat parties. Didn't feel safe there.

What the guy did was criminal, and the punishment was insufficient. Think I've been pretty clear about that.

But I also have a 25 yo daughter, and a 12 yo daughter. I have taught them not to go to places they feel unsafe, and most certainly not to go there when their judgement is impaired. If someone is likely to commit a criminal act, I'd rather they be in the best position possible that it not happen to them.

I have 7 different close friends or immediate family members who have been raped- some more than once. 5 of them are male. All but 1 of them were drunk or high when molested. The 1 (male- my best friend) was gang raped when we were 13.

My parents failed to tell me the horrors he had been through until I was nearly 50. I was furious with them- I felt betrayed, like they had put me at the same risk he had been in by not telling me anything.

Not on my watch.

This thread is a great reminder that 7 is a good time for my daughter to start karate or aikido. And my sons as well

I wholeheartedly agree that the guy in this case needs to rot for what he did. The actions of the woman leading up offer no excuses whatsoever for his actions, nor do they diminish the enormity of what he did.

I do, however, appeal to anyone and everyone to take care of themselves in all situations and protect themselves. Why? because there are terrible people. This is proof of it. Thinking about being overly drunk in public scares the hell out of me, as it should you.

Hell, I am a 6'2" Caucasian male and find drinking culture dangerous. I cant imagine adding rape culture to it. I just hope that the women I care about protect themselves well because I am pessimist enough to believe that there is no possible way that it is going to change overnight.

Huckleberry wrote: In reply to WilD: Same story here. I run in a group with a few women who will only run in a pack - and I consider the trail where we typically train to be a very safe area. Even one of my good female friends who is about as hardcore a female athlete kickboxer/mma type as it gets will only run alone in broad daylight when it's crowded or she calls for the buddy system. I wish it could be explained by paranoia or too much news but - it really can't. Girls go missing and turn up dead with alarming frequency. Maybe not RIGHT HERE TODAY but close enough that I wouldn't send my wife out alone either.

In general going out alone, whether it's for a run or to a late night party, is a lot like leaving the doors of your house unlocked to me. People do it all the time, and nothing bad happens, but it leaves the potential there for somebody to take advantage of the situation. It would be great if we lived in a world where people didn't have to lock their doors, and people (Not just women, plenty of young men go missing too) didn't have to 'buddy up' before going out but we don't.

Please don't think that any of this is an excuse for what the young man did, or placing any blame on the young woman. (She wasn't even alone at the party, she just got separated from her sister at some point.) Just a general statement about our world today, and the precautions that should be taken. We would all probably advise someone to lock their doors at night to avoid any danger. Unfortunately similar precautions need to be taken in other areas of life too.

In reply to Marjorie Suddard:

She gets drunk a lot too, so I hear.