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Hidinginplainsight
Hidinginplainsight
1/12/23 12:53 p.m.

Throw away account for obvious reasons, I have a real account on here, any mods please feel free to reach out and I'll confirm who I am in a non public way.

So, the Q.  What are your thoughts on defending yourself against a Disorderly person charge vs getting an attorney?  This is pre-trial or pre hearing, I'm not even sure of the right title.

Background.  I was involved in a situation recently.  I ordered some food from a well known chain.  Picked it up and got back into the car and found both the order was wrong, and there was no plasticware.  I went back in, the line was massive so I figured I'd skip the wrong order and just grab some flatware, specifically a knife for spreading.  None were out so I looked around, saw an employee (I found later they were the Manager on duty that day) and asked a couple of times for a knife.  He apparently didn't hear me so I was following him going 'Sir, sir, can I get a knife' or something similar.  I followed him through the gap in the counter/service area when he turned round and saw me.  He flipped out and started shouting at me that I couldn't be back there.  We got into an argument, I was wound up and pissed off at wrong order and no service so I was no longer acting politely by this point as this guy was shouting at me.  I turned round and saw some plastic knives so I grabbed one and was waving it saying I just wanted a knife and he was ignoring/couldn't hear me.  He and a woman on the checkout were yelling at me, I lost my cool, pushed over a couple of stacks of paper coffee cups (in one motion) and left.  I was sitting outside in the passenger seat of the car with the window down while sorting out the food.  My window was down.  Next thing I know, the guy from inside (Manager) came up and started punching and beating the E36 M3 out of me through the open window.  People were shouting at him to stop.  The only reason he stopped is because my wife threw the car in reverse and backed out with him still trying to lean through the window.  I had a black eye, cut nose and smashed glasses.

Cops were called and took statements inside and outside.  The workers inside are claiming I threw a knife at them (I didn't, I had the knife in the car and showed it to the police).  At least one witness I talked to is an ordained minister and witnessed both inside and outside.  She gave a statement with her details to the police, but didn't give me her details.  I know there is video from inside, but none from outside.

I heard nothing for a while, then I was stunned as I got a ticket and court summons for 'disorderly person' in the mail with a Zoom court appearance.  Now, I don't disagree I was a bit of an ass and lost my temper, but I'm not sure it counts as disorderly conduct and even though it's a misdemeanor, it's still a criminal charge.  I also want to make sure that the guy that beat me up is getting prosecuted somehow as in no way do two wrongs make a right, and no matter how much of an ass I was, I didn't deserve a physical assault, and anyone who loses his E36 M3 like that shouldn't be in a customer facing service managers position.  I have heard nothing about a case against the guy who beat me, I would have thought I'd be at least called as a witness, but I've heard nothing.

We have a lot of good friends, and some of them recommended good attorneys to represent me.  I figured $1,000-1,500 to make sure I was properly presented from a legal point of view would be a good idea.  I don't want to end up with a guilty charge for simply making a process mistake in a legal proceeding.  I talked to a couple of attorneys, one promised to call back and hasn't after a couple of follow up calls, so obviously not interested.  The other said he's as confident as can be, without making a promise, that I could get it pled down to a fine at most.  The thing is he operates on a flat $6,000 fee for anything and everything up to a trial, which it should never reach, but $6K seems insane.

Other info.  I've been on a quest to find the 'evidence', witness statements and video with no luck.  The trail so far has been:

  • Call the Sheriff's office.  They sent me to the court.
  • Call the court, they sent me to the Sheriff's records office.
  • Call the Sheriff's office, they will send me back to court records.
  • Call the Court records office and they tell me I need to file a FOIA request.
  • Fill out the FOIA request and it gets rejected.  Amazingly, a real person answered my email to the rejection email and told me the FOIA request needs to be filed with the Sheriff's office.
  • Filled a second FOIA request from the same court website for the Sheriff's office and currently waiting.

This all took long enough that I had to file an adjournment request as the original Zoom Court date was today.  I managed to get that figured out on my own.  Amusing aside, an adjournment needs to be signed by opposing counsel / prosecutor.  I called the prosecutors number on the County court website expecting to get an office, nope it was his cell and he was in the car.  I quickly explained the situation and he said no problem, sign for me.  I did, I got the paperwork in on Monday and called yesterday and they confirmed it's been put off to Feb 5th so I have some time to get the evidence and decide on an attorney.

So.  What does the braintrust, especially any attorneys think?  Should I get an attorney, hopefully at considerably less than $6K, or should I go it alone.  What are pitfalls or other things I need to do/not do?

P.S. I have never had any run ins with officialdom or the law previously other than a handful of speeding tickets over the decades, not even a new ticket in well over five years.  I do hold a reasonably senior position in my industry and travel abroad for business.  I was in an Asian country just before Christmas, and one guy who was part of our group has been at fault in a serious auto accident so had a criminal charge on his record.  He got pulled aside by customs there and had a ton of extra questions and had to sign extra paperwork promising not to commit any crimes while in the country.  I really don't want to have to deal with anything like that, or expose myself to professional issues if I end up with this against me.  

TIA

Duke
Duke MegaDork
1/12/23 1:10 p.m.

I know nothing at all about the legal situation, but $6000 at $250 / hour is only 24 hours' worth of legal time.  I wouldn't hold my breath for professional representation costing much less than that.

Good luck to you, whoever you may be.

 

Wally (Forum Supporter)
Wally (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/12/23 1:19 p.m.

If possible I would get a lawyer. Things rarely play out well without one. 

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia UltraDork
1/12/23 1:24 p.m.
Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

If possible I would get a lawyer. Things rarely play out well without one. 

I agree ,  it sucks but you need to keep this off your record whatever it costs.

And I assume there were security cameras rolling , will they make you look worse ?

Good Luck

93gsxturbo
93gsxturbo UltraDork
1/12/23 1:25 p.m.
Duke said:

I know nothing at all about the legal situation, but $6000 at $250 / hour is only 24 hours' worth of legal time.  I wouldn't hold my breath for professional representation costing much less than that.

Good luck to you, whoever you may be.

 

I would consider the $6k the cost of being a you-know-what.    

Was the other guy wrong? Sure.  Were you wrong as well?  Absolutely.  

It is not your place to determine/care what the other party is being prosecuted for or what the repercussions of their actions are.  That is between them, the district attorney, and their legal representation.  

RevRico
RevRico GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
1/12/23 1:25 p.m.

I would get one in this case. More because I don't trust the courts to actually charge the guy that assaulted you without one, but my experience has been that the court system is just entirely berkeleying useless, and if you're seeing a judge instead of a magistrate, a lawyer can't hurt getting it turned into a summary offense.

20 years ago my defense attorney was $150/hour. That $6k flat rate might not be a bad plan in the long run. 

mtn
mtn MegaDork
1/12/23 1:26 p.m.

Wait... You got beat up, while in your car? I would definitely be getting a lawyer, even at $6k, because I would want to explore suing the restaurant and manager. 

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/12/23 1:26 p.m.

If you work for a large company, check your benefits package.  A lot of them include a couple hours of free initial consultation with an attorney, which is generally enough to answer the "how serious is this, do I need real representation?" kind of question.

$6K sounds totally worth it to me.  I know someone who had (more serious) legal trouble and it went from "no big deal, just probation" at the beginning to him spending most of a decade in prison, due in part to inadequate legal representation.  That was a felony charge obviously, but this kind of thing is a minefield and facing it alone seems like a bad idea.  IMHO you want the best legal representation you can afford.

 

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
1/12/23 1:28 p.m.

So this guy followed you outside, and was punching you through your cart window? I'd be going after him.
 

In answer to your question, I definitely agree you need an attorney. I was already convinced before I got to the part where you have to travel to foreign countries.

matthewmcl
matthewmcl Dork
1/12/23 1:30 p.m.

I hope this does not come across as political, but in this country you will get all if the justice you can afford. An attorney may also be able to counsel you on the possibility of a civil case against the person that assaulted you, which may go towards lowering costs.

I am not an attorney nor have I been in your position.

Hidinginplainsight
Hidinginplainsight New Reader
1/12/23 1:30 p.m.

Interesting input guys.  Thanks.  I'm sure representation is a good idea, it's just that $6k seems steep.  Please keep the comments coming.

One note, this appears to have nothing to do with any charges the other guy is getting, and I don't know what they are.  The $6K  would only cover me and the disorderly conduct.  Note. I did say when the cops were there I wanted to press charges against him.  Big mistake.  I got told in no uncertain terms I cannot press charges, that is down to the prosecutor, not me.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
1/12/23 1:31 p.m.

Sounds like YOU need to press charges for assault and battery by the manager.

(edit for above comment)

You did file a complaint though right?  You are correct though, the prosecutor will ultimately determine if any charges are actually pressed.  I find it hard to believe he would charge you and not the manager though (if that makes any difference)

It may be a layman's mistake to refer to "pressing charges" (if it is a mistake?) but that is a very common term for "wanting to have the other person charged with a crime".... so that cop was a D.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa UltimaDork
1/12/23 1:36 p.m.
Hidinginplainsight said:

Big mistake.  I got told in no uncertain terms I cannot press charges, that is down to the prosecutor, not me.

Never listen to cops when it comes to the law.  They often do not know it and their ability to lie to those they are dealing with has been held up by SCOTUS.

If you want to press charges, you need to have someone that knows the law (aka, a lawyer) tell you if you can or cannot.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
1/12/23 1:37 p.m.

I'm also in the camp of $6k is worth it to keep a criminal charge off your record. And having a professional investigate suing the manager/restaurant for assault. 

I'm assuming the cops to pictures of your beat up face for the record?

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/12/23 1:38 p.m.
Mr_Asa said:
Hidinginplainsight said:

Big mistake.  I got told in no uncertain terms I cannot press charges, that is down to the prosecutor, not me.

Never listen to cops when it comes to the law.  They often do not know it and their ability to lie to those they are dealing with has been held up by SCOTUS.

If you want to press charges, you need to have someone that knows the law (aka, a lawyer) tell you if you can or cannot.

The cops are probably getting free lunches at that place now. 

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones SuperDork
1/12/23 1:41 p.m.
aircooled said:

Sounds like YOU need to press charges for assault and battery by the manager.

It does not work that way, he can not press criminal charges, the prosecutor can.  He can sue the manager for assault and try and get damages, but it will be tough as he started it. There is no way I would do this by myself, I would hire a Lawyer and STFU.

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
1/12/23 1:42 p.m.

Get a lawyer.

Get a criminal lawyer. Not one that does probate or writes real estate contracts for a living. Get somebody who has represented people like you in situations like this. He knows all the tricks and traps, including the ones that aren't written in the law books. Get one who knows his way around the court system and one the judges know and respect by reputation. Some of the better ones have actually worked as prosecutors before getting into criminal defense. I have seen guys represent themselves right into a jail cell on a case that could have been resolved with probation or a small fine. Some judges with busy dockets are annoyed by pro se defendants who slow their calendars down. It isn't hard to piss off a judge when you are emotionally involved and don't know what you are doing. A good legal team will prepare you for court and tell you when and where to shut up.

The problem is you are a defendant and emotionally involved in the case. It is one thing to go study the law and courtroom procedures and another to remember what you know when you are on trial and stressed out. Even lawyers hire other lawyers when they get in trouble. That's why.

I don't know the details of the situation, but if there is a big fast food chain involved, they just might have a big law firm on retainer to represent their people or to sit in on a criminal trial in case you decide to sue them in a civil court. You don't want to take those guys on.

Just my two cents. I'm not a lawyer, but I have worked for decades as a Paralegal, a Firm Administrator and a Process Server. I have seen lots of crazy crap go down in court.

APEowner
APEowner GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
1/12/23 1:48 p.m.

Personally, I wouldn't want to deal with this situation without an attorney.  You might be eligible for a public defender.  Check with your local public defender's office.  Even if you have to pay for it it seems like it would be worth paying for this considering the worst case possibilities.  Speaking of worst case possibilities, you might want to see what the maximum penalty is in your jurisdiction.

 

 

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
1/12/23 1:50 p.m.

How many times have you heard someone opine they wish they'd gotten a lawyer?

How many times have you heard someone opine they wish they hadn't?

 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa UltimaDork
1/12/23 1:52 p.m.
APEowner said:

Personally, I wouldn't want to deal with this situation without an attorney.  You might be eligible for a public defender.  Check with your local public defender's office.  Even if you have to pay for it it seems like it would be worth paying for this considering the worst case possibilities.  Speaking of worst case possibilities, you might want to see what the maximum penalty is in your jurisdiction.

 

 

I would get a public defender if I wanted to see the inside of a cell (or whatever the worst case is)

The public defender system is a shambles.  Overworked lawyers will sometimes get to visit with a defendant for a whole hour before they have to represent them.

The idea of it is awesome.  The reality of the P.D. system is terrible.

Datsun310Guy
Datsun310Guy MegaDork
1/12/23 1:53 p.m.

Five years we used a lawyer from my church that I knew well to finalize some of my dads estate.  He charged $300/hour but he's one of those big shot downtown Chicago lawyers.   I'm in the $6000 camp.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
1/12/23 1:57 p.m.

Pay the $6K. The cost of NOT paying it will be significantly worse to your career and future. 
 

Then ask your lawyer if he's willing to file a lawsuit against the manager AND the restaurant chain. THAT should make him salivate. 
 

Did you get medical attention for your injuries?

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
1/12/23 2:03 p.m.
Mr_Asa said:
APEowner said:

Personally, I wouldn't want to deal with this situation without an attorney.  You might be eligible for a public defender.  Check with your local public defender's office.  Even if you have to pay for it it seems like it would be worth paying for this considering the worst case possibilities.  Speaking of worst case possibilities, you might want to see what the maximum penalty is in your jurisdiction.

 

 

I would get a public defender if I wanted to see the inside of a cell (or whatever the worst case is)

The public defender system is a shambles.  Overworked lawyers will sometimes get to visit with a defendant for a whole hour before they have to represent them.

The idea of it is awesome.  The reality of the P.D. system is terrible.

Being a public defender is a good way to get a whole lot of experience real fast right after you get out of law school. Some of those guys have had a lot of courtroom experience and are pretty good. Others, not so much. In some jurisdictions you have to meet a certain financial standard to obtain a public defender, aka you have to be poor. Owning a house or  any assets, or having a salary that allows you to have expensive hobbies like messing with cars would bump you out of that category.

Hidinginplainsight
Hidinginplainsight New Reader
1/12/23 2:08 p.m.

I wouldn't request a public defender.  I don't meet any definition of not being able to afford representation.  I don't mind paying, but I was shocked at $6K for the initial hearing.  Again, if it ended up going to court for an actual trial, the $6K would be gone (flat fee) and I'd be onto a per hour rate.  I think I need to keep looking for someone else.

 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
1/12/23 2:09 p.m.

 

93gsxturbo said:

It is not your place to determine/care what the other party is being prosecuted for or what the repercussions of their actions are.  That is between them, the district attorney, and their legal representation.  

It is not entire his, but OP should still play a role in the decision of whether or not to press charges for assault.
 

mtn said:

Wait... You got beat up, while in your car? I would definitely be getting a lawyer, even at $6k, because I would want to explore suing the restaurant and manager. 

yup 

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

If you work for a large company, check your benefits package.  A lot of them include a couple hours of free initial consultation with an attorney, which is generally enough to answer the "how serious is this, do I need real representation?" kind of question.

yup

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