driver's in spring (rant warning)

walterj wrote:

ignorant wrote:

walterj wrote:

ignorant wrote: I'm a cyclist. I ride to keep myself safe, which means damn near in the middle of the lane. You better share the road.. If you hit me or pull anything aggressive.. I hope you have good lawyers..

My grandfather used to say "The graveyard is full of guys who thought they had the right of way".

copy from state law:

SC state law said: SECTION 56-5-3430. Riding on roadways and bicycle paths. Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, exercising due care when passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction.

Oh, I'm sure you are right. I am also sure that you will not be able to quote that from the grave. After 20yrs of riding motorcycles without dying... I can say that looking out for your own ass like you had spider sense is much more effective that expecting anyone else to pay attention at all. Stay frosty.

You missed my edit.. I agree with you. You have to watch out for #1, period.

wow did I raise a E36 M3 storm here...

It was never my intention to cause this much of a ruckis.. but I see some people had to chime in with the wrong choice of words.

I am a little sore today and I have a nice mirror shaped bruse on my left hip and some scabby roadrash.. nothing too major.

This was not meant to be a bicyclists/drivers thing. During the last week (first full warm week) I have noticed all sorts of idiocy on the roads. From people tootling along at 10under the limit while a mile of cars stacks up behind them (literally), a guy who came to a halt at a green light on a busy state highway because the turning left lane next to him had stopped (at a red arrow) to the lady who bumped the back of my saab because I took my foot off of the brake and she thought I was moving.

There is something about bright sunny warm weather that either brings out the idiocy in normal drivers, or brings the idiot drivers out of hibernation

ignorant wrote: I'm a cyclist. I ride to keep myself safe, which means damn near in the middle of the lane. You better share the road.. If you hit me or pull anything aggressive.. I hope you have good lawyers..

Then you do the damn same and we'll all be happy. That means no lane splitting, no "pause and go" through red lights, no cutting across traffic to ride the wrong way up the street for 20 yards before making a left turn, no zooming out of side streets or swinging wide without looking, no iPod cranked so you can't hear, etc.

We all obey the rules, you all obey the rules, no problem. Let's see it happen. Maybe it's just because I live in a college town, but all those things are the regular MO of cyclists around here.

That being said, someone please explain why, in a county with a huge park system full of nice trails and paved paths, not to mention hundreds of miles of quiet, scenic back roads, do so many joggers and cyclists insist on using the already-overstressed 2-lane arteries with no shoulder? Is it so that we can all be impressed by your physical fitness?

Don't be morons. Plot your course somewhere where you don't have to be self-righteously indignant about sharing the road all the time. You'll get better excercize, be safer and more relaxed, and not have to suck cubic yards of car exhaust all in the bargain.

I don't understand why riding in the middle of the road makes you safer?

I think there is a difference between the way "wherethefmi" and myself ride (courier style if you will)

and the way the suburbanite "we are the cyclists" types rides. I think too often these types of riders believe that they are a motor vehicle and are entitled to all the same abilities as a say...an Amish Buggy.

In my early post I said "I ride like I own the road", but I want to rescind that statement.

I ride like I'm damn scared of the road and the drivers on it...and like a rabbit in a tiger's pen, I try as hard to stay away from the big heavy metal objects as possible, but that doesn't mean I'll give up my spot on the berm.

Duke wrote: That being said, someone please explain why, in a county with a huge park system full of nice trails and paved paths, not to mention hundreds of miles of quiet, scenic back roads, do so many joggers and cyclists insist on using the already-overstressed 2-lane arteries with no shoulder? Is it so that we can all be impressed by your physical fitness?

I do not know about the others... but like driving, I do enjoy riding. If I am just riding for the fun of it, I have hundreds of miles of semi-quiet (for NJ) roads to choose from.. and I use them.

I also use my bike to go to the store 5 miles down the road, to the mall 7 miles the other way, to my landlords... etc etc.. those small trips that really do not require a car, do require me to use more heavily used roads.

Just because I am out "riding" does not mean I am not being productive too. Taking the bike means that even the worst trip (paying rent) can seem like a nice one

I can vaguely understand the "getting from here to there" cyclists, though I'd probably plot a course that let me avoid major roads for that as much as possible. And I'm not really talking about commuter cyclists, either.

But joggers have no excuse that I've ever been able to imagine. 99 out of 100 of us live in suburbia. 999 out 1000 times they are running a loop that starts and ends at their front door, so why do they run on crowded streets and roads that are already handling too much vehicular traffic?

To put a bicycle in the middle of a lane of a major road is complete lunacy. That's why the Interstates and some connector roads have these signs:

Even the gubmint recognizes that it's not a real good idea.

So if someone wishes to ride in the middle of a lane of a busy road which does not have this sign, be my guest. Or if they choose to whip out into traffic to teach those big ol' nasty car drivers a lesson, again be my guest. Just be aware you are stacking the deck against yourself. At least your next of kin can say 'but he/she had a right to be there' as they chunk dirt on your coffin or they scatter your ashes.

I'll try to go back OT: I don't know if it's the pollen or what, but I've noticed more jackassery than usual, too. Specifically, lots of "I'm doing 65. I'm doing 65. I'm doing 65. OH, you want to pass? I'm doing 85...until you tuck behind me. Now I'm doing 70" lately. That E36 M3 drives me insane.

Duke wrote:

ignorant wrote: I'm a cyclist. I ride to keep myself safe, which means damn near in the middle of the lane. You better share the road.. If you hit me or pull anything aggressive.. I hope you have good lawyers..

Then you do the damn same and we'll all be happy.

I follow the rules. go troll someone who else.

let me edit that.. I missed that you were in a college town. Dude.. I understand your position now. Bicycle, motorcycle, ATV, whatever.. They're all squids.

Had a co-worker last year that looked down to adjust his IPod (while riding), and rear-ended a Uhaul trailer. Got a reckless for his trouble, along with some nasty facial scars, and headaches for some time afterwards. I'm still confused by the lane splitting that I see cyclists do at intersections. Why can't I do this on the motorcycle? At least when the light turns green, I can get away AHEAD of the cars (not many can do 0-60 in less than 4 seconds, my motorcycle can). Cyclists, well, now all the cars get to pass them again. I rarely ride my bicycle anymore, since everyone thinks I'm going to be like so many of the cyclists in this town.

"Here lies the body of Michael O'Day, who died maintaining the right of way. He was right, dead right, as he sailed along, but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong."

mad_machine said: my bike is a C/F Trek... I did not see any marks on the frame, but now I got to give it a good going over

The best way to check a Carbon frame is to feel the tubes for any soft spots. Sometimes they can splinter internally without any outward signs. Especially check the center sections of tubing as those are the weakest parts, the joints are typically VERY strong. If you check the tubes and don't feel any soft spots, then you are good-to-go.

mad_machine wrote: wow did I raise a E36 M3 storm here... It was never my intention to cause this much of a ruckis.. but I see some people had to chime in with the wrong choice of words. I am a little sore today and I have a nice mirror shaped bruse on my left hip and some scabby roadrash.. nothing too major. This was not meant to be a bicyclists/drivers thing. During the last week (first full warm week) I have noticed all sorts of idiocy on the roads. From people tootling along at 10under the limit while a mile of cars stacks up behind them (literally), a guy who came to a halt at a green light on a busy state highway because the turning left lane next to him had stopped (at a red arrow) to the lady who bumped the back of my saab because I took my foot off of the brake and she thought I was moving. There is something about bright sunny warm weather that either brings out the idiocy in normal drivers, or brings the idiot drivers out of hibernation

I drove about 300 miles today. I bet 25% of the drivers had their heads in the clouds. Usually the full moon does this to them. It does seem to go in cycles. Everyone goes brain dead at the same time. Main thing on the interstate is people driving like a yo yo. They run 65 until you pass them, then they speed up and won't let you complete the pass and trap you in the hammer lane. One car I must have passed 4 times. I would pass him at 75, he would pass me at 80. Ten miles later he would be running 70 again and I would pass him again.

Glad nothing major was injured. Last time I crashed a bike it was my sons. He left in the the yard and I tripped over it. Ended up with one leg through the frame and me piled on top of it. Took forever to extract my self from that tangle. I was sore for a week.

I had my bike checked out today... frame was fine.. I am happy.

As for Driver's yoyoing.. I hate that. I often run at about 70ish on the highway with the CC set. It is annoying when people play games like that around you. One was a guy in an S class Merc... I passed him at 70.. and as soon as I completed my pass.. he sped up, passed me, got in front, and slowed down again... after over a dozen times I finally stayed in the "hammer" lane until faster traffic came up behind me, then I moved over, having trapped him behind the faster cars

Yeah, Clear roads and sky tend to bring out stupidity in many. Just because you dont have to be extra carfull because the snow is gone... shiny happy people

Toyman01 wrote: Maybe you missed the point of the whole post. I'm not going to watch out for bikers. Never have never will. If I hit a biker even when the biker is in the right, I might go to jail, but the biker might be dead. It isn't a fun fact, but it is a fact. Therefor it is the everyone else's responsibility to stay the hell out of my way . Assume every car is out to kill you. If you try to force your right of way on a bike, you will lose. I ride my bike only in my neighborhood or on bike paths. Even then I know cars aren't going to see me and ride accordingly. Riding on a main road is like playing Russian Roulette with someone else loading the gun especially if it's any road that I use. I do own it, after all.

Fixed.

PHeller wrote: I don't understand why riding in the middle of the road makes you safer?

When you take the lane you are often safer because the overtaking motorist sees you sooner and then gives you the whole lane while passing. When you're squeezed against the right, they "think" they can squeeze by you, even in a no-passing zone with oncoming traffic.

Frankly, even knowing this I tend to stay to the right unless the lane is really narrow, so that people can get by me and traffic can keep moving (and tempers of the ignorant can remain under control). My only request is that they slow down a bit while they go by. The total impact to their schedule is maybe 30 seconds, at best.

PHeller wrote: I think too often these types of riders believe that they are a motor vehicle and are entitled to all the same abilities as a say...an Amish Buggy. In my early post I said "I ride like I own the road", but I want to rescind that statement. I ride like I'm damn scared of the road and the drivers on it...and like a rabbit in a tiger's pen, I try as hard to stay away from the big heavy metal objects as possible, but that doesn't mean I'll give up my spot on the berm.

I ride defensively, too, but that means taking my lane at the stoplight. (Yes, I stop and obey all the laws.) If I rode like I was scared all the time, I'd probably get run over. Taking the lane at the light (or to turn left) ensures that 1) I'm seen, 2) that I "take my turn" through the intersection, and 3) that I don't get "right hooked. All this without costing the cars behind me anything. (I can go 0-12 mph a lot faster than a car can.) As soon as the light turns green I'm already moving back to the right so I don't hold anyone up.

poopshovel wrote: I'll try to go back OT: I don't know if it's the pollen or what, but I've noticed more jackassery than usual, too. Specifically, lots of "I'm doing 65. I'm doing 65. I'm doing 65. OH, you want to pass? I'm doing 85...until you tuck behind me. Now I'm doing 70" lately. That E36 M3 drives me insane.

Oh yeah. I meant to reply to the OP, but...

I noticed the same thing on Tuesday. I've been riding all Winter and nobody complained. We all just got along and everything was fine.

Tuesday, it's warm out, and I get buzzed and honked at. Somebody yells something unintelligible as they pass. It was weird, as if people had had their cars hanging in the garage all winter, and had just pulled them out for the "nice day."

Duke wrote: That being said, someone please explain why, in a county with a huge park system full of nice trails and paved paths, not to mention hundreds of miles of quiet, scenic back roads, do so many ...cyclists insist on using the already-overstressed 2-lane arteries with no shoulder? Is it so that we can all be impressed by your physical fitness? Don't be morons. Plot your course somewhere where you don't have to be self-righteously indignant about sharing the road all the time. You'll get better excercize, be safer and more relaxed, and not have to suck cubic yards of car exhaust all in the bargain.

Can someone explain to me why the 2-lane artery has no shoulder? Or lacks the capacity to handle non-motorized traffic (which takes up a lot less space than any 4-wheeler)? Or why the county spends so much money on nice trails and paved paths that don't really go anywhere?

I'm not a moron, but the safest route to work for me involves a 2-lane rural 55 mph road, followed by a 4-lane suburban 45 mph 4-lane. Neither road is really provisioned for non-motor vehicles. I mitigate the risks, here by carefully choosing the timing of my passage to avoid the traffic surges. People are generally courteous and safe, as am I (except for this past Tuesday).

I'm not just out for exercise, even though that is a benefit, and I don't care to impress anyone. I also don't "whip" out in front of people.

I love cars or I wouldn't read GRM or visit this site, but consider this. Should car ownership be some kind of acid test for acceptance in this country? If we built our communities and roads to accomodate more non-motor traffic, there would be fewer cars on the road to get in your way. Seems win-win to me.

You talk about rude car drivers but then you claim to do rude things yourself? Am I missing the point?

When you take the lane you are often safer because the overtaking motorist sees you sooner and then gives you the whole lane while passing. When you're squeezed against the right, they "think" they can squeeze by you, even in a no-passing zone with oncoming traffic.

Frankly, even knowing this I tend to stay to the right unless the lane is really narrow, so that people can get by me and traffic can keep moving (and tempers of the ignorant can remain under control). My only request is that they slow down a bit while they go by. The total impact to their schedule is maybe 30 seconds, at best.

I also think you might want to look at ignorant's post of SC law where it specifially states that bicyclists are required to stay as far to the right as possible.

SC state law said:

SECTION 56-5-3430. Riding on roadways and bicycle paths. Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, exercising due care when passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction.

I don't see anything in there about getting in the middle of the lane to make sure they see you.

No, car ownership is NOT an 'acid test'. It's a fact of life. People live in a house in suburbia because they are tired of urban life and want a yard so they can play with their kids and a driveway for their project car. People buy cars because they have to get to work, the grocery store whatever and they don't want to ride bicycles or horses. (It's kinda hard to carry a week's groceries for 4 on a bicycle.) Whether that is right or wrong is not the subject here. The fact is that MANY more people drive cars for transportation instead of riding a bike and the roadways are designed accordingly. The cost of land in urban and suburban areas in many cases means no bicycle lanes. Again whether or not that is right or wrong is not the subject.

So it comes down to the thing that's been hammered ad nauseam in this thread: we all gotta share the roads and it is incumbent on EVERYONE to share. That means: some jerk on a bicycle who whips out in the middle of a lane of traffic to prove that he/she has the same rights is just as stupid and just as much at fault as the guy driving a Lincoln who crowds a bicyclist into a light pole because he thinks bicycles should be banned from the roads. The common thread in both of these is that in the event of an accident in both cases the bicyclist is very probably dead and the driver walks off without a scratch.

we all gotta share the roads and it is incumbent on EVERYONE to share. That means: some jerk on a bicycle who whips out in the middle of a lane of traffic to prove that he/she has the same rights is just as stupid and just as much at fault as the guy driving a Lincoln who crowds a bicyclist into a light pole because he thinks bicycles should be banned from the roads. The common thread in both of these is that in the event of an accident in both cases the bicyclist is very probably dead and the driver walks off without a scratch.

You forgot the "end thread." part.

Oops.

/ thread.

Jensenman wrote: I also think you might want to look at ignorant's post of SC law where it specifially states that bicyclists are required to stay as far to the right as possible. SC state law said: SECTION 56-5-3430. Riding on roadways and bicycle paths. Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, exercising due care when passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction. I don't see anything in there about getting in the middle of the lane to make sure they see you.

The KS law contains many exceptions, which are pretty common. I can't speak to SC law, specifically.

"8-1590. Riding on bicycles or mopeds; riding on roadways and bicycle paths. (Bicyclists must ride to the right)

(a) Every person operating a bicycle or a moped upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, except under any of the following situations when: (1) Overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction; (2) preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway; or (3) reasonably necessary to avoid conditions including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or moving bicycles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or narrow width lanes that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand edge of the roadway.

(b) Any person operating a bicycle or a moped upon a one-way highway with two or more marked traffic lanes may ride as near to the left side of the roadway as practicable.

(c) Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway shall not ride more than two abreast, except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles.

(d) Wherever a usable path for bicycles has been provided adjacent to a roadway, bicycle riders shall use such path and shall not use the roadway.

(e) For purposes of this section, "narrow width lane" means a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side-by-side within the lane.

History: L. 1974, ch. 33, § 8-1590; L. 1995, ch. 188, § 7; July 1."

Within this law, there is a lot of interpretive room. First of all, "practicable" and "possible" have different meaning. If a cyclist feels, in his own judgement, that he needs to ride down the middle of the lane to avoid the hazard of not being seen, then he is within the law.

"Usable Path" also leaves room for interpretation. Who decides what is "useable?" A sidewalk is certainly not a safe alternative to the road, and presents hazards to pedestrians. Even a wide path made for bicycles doubles a cyclist's hazard at every intersection. Much safer to move with traffic. Anyway, this is the infamous "mandatory sidepath" provision and is getting struck from the books in most places that have it. Around here, the municipality ignores it.

Note, again, that I don't advocate "whipping" out in front of people, or taking the lane all the time. I do advocate taking my proper turn through the intersection and obeying the same traffic law as everyone else. Then I get the heck out of the way. I don't mind sharing a 12 foot lane with cars and trucks, even on a 55 mph road. I ask only that they slow down a bit to reduce the speed differential.

I have no illusions about who "wins" in a car-bicycle collision.

Oh, and I totally agree with you on "share the road." It goes every which way whether I'm driving or riding.

sorry jensenman. It says practicable. Sometimes in unsafe situations it is practical to ride in the middle of the lane. I'll bet I could prove that easy in court.