My 2017 Accord was 19,900. No leather. Damn I guess I missed out.
My 2017 Accord was 19,900. No leather. Damn I guess I missed out.
In reply to wae :
Good point, as well. Quality used to be a selling point. These days, not so much. Maybe in cars, which do seem to last longer (average age of cars on the road today is at an all time high), but exactly the opposite in most other consumer goods.
Luckily, those old appliances aren't hard to keep going. We have a 30 year old dryer that requires a new belt and some other odd part every few years, which takes me about as much time to fix as it would take me to go shop for a new dryer. TVs and radios and cell phones are less rebuildable though, and unlike a 30 year old dryer, which still dries clothes acceptably well, a 30 year old cell phone is mostly useless except as a paperweight.
At work, we have some locomotives that were originally built in the 1960's. They've been overhauled twice since then, and we're sending them out for overhaul #3. It's cheaper than buying new, most of the overhauled equipment is still done in the U.S.A. so the quality is good, and we can expect another 20 + years of use out of them post-overhaul.
So, perhaps I should amend my theory to add "disposable design" to "offshoring" and "automation". I sense a thesis here.
Single income family here as well, buy stuff with cash (mostly) save towards retirement and future awesome living. Enjoy now just fine, without a new Accord.
Heyo, same horrible WSJ article made it to the front page of LinkedIn
In reply to FuzzWuzzy :
I would love to have the dumbass that wrote that define "the most basic of cars".
wae said:STM317 said:Here's median household income over time:
The median household income in 1990, when you were "coming of age", starting a career, starting a family, etc was $55952. Again, it was $63179 in 2018. If we put that 1990 median income into an inflation calculator, you know what it would be equivalent to today?
If I read that correctly, doesn't the chart show the median household income in 2018-adjusted dollars? So that 55,952 doesn't need adjustment?
Uh, maybe so. It does say "real" median income which I took to mean nominal, and I saw "not seasonally adjusted" and overlooked the "2018 adjusted" part. But the numbers probably make more sense if those are already adjusted for inflation. Guess I need to look into it a bit more for some clarification.
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
I'm sure they meant relative to what is currently offered. Is a Nissan Versa basic compared to a Model T? Of course not.
Is it basic compared to the new Audi RS4 wagon? Most defintely.
Too many people want to live beyond their means.
Easy credit.
People buy more than they can afford to satisfy their ego.
Oh, and then they can't afford the maintenance because they never learned how do simple things like oil changes, brake pads, air filter changes, cabin air filter changes, battery changes, etc.
I am dealing with a blown engine in Mrs. Jharry3's 2017 Ford Edge(cracked block, factory defect). Out of mileage warranty but Ford is kicking in some help out of a good will gesture, which is appreciated. Meanwhile the dealer does a full inspection on the car for maintenance items. Finds the rear brake pads are getting thin and offers to do that brake job for $300. New pads and mandatory rotor turning. No thanks. I rarely get rotors turned when I swap pads, like almost never, and pads are under $50 at the local auto parts store.
z31maniac said:In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
I'm sure they meant relative to what is currently offered. Is a Nissan Versa basic compared to a Model T? Of course not.
Is it basic compared to the new Audi RS4 wagon? Most defintely.
Of course my post was tongue in cheek. But is anyone taking out a 6 year (or longer) note on a Versa? My point was that these longer notes are naturally skewed heavily towards pricier cars, and the author was, in fact, full of E36 M3.
Unrelated, most states do cap interest rates on car loans. 20-25% is pretty common. And before you ask "Who the hell gets a car loan at 20%??", I will tell you I personally know more than one.
Do the math on a ten thousand dollar car note at 5 years and 20 percent. You'll die a little inside.
The Olds comparison hits home. My parents bought a 1984 Chevy Celebrity new and passed it to me in 1992. I sold it to a roommate in 1994 with 187k miles on it. He got past 200 and sold it to someone else. It was still running when it got creamed by a bus in Baltimore.
Cost in 1984: 10,000. $24740 in today's dollars. My dad can't recall if the $10k included tax or not.
On Monday, I bought a new Golf SportWagen, the last AWD 6MT wagon I can buy in the US. $22,340 out the door, $9000 in 1984. The comparison between the two is crazy. 88 pushrod HP vs 170 DOHC turbo. 13" steelies w/hubcaps vs 16" alloys. Disc/drum vs discs all around. All wheel drive. Hand crank windows vs power. 3 speed automatic with a lockup converter (4sp manual was standard) vs 6MT (6 speed DSG is a $1000 option). On and on and on. The Chevy didn't even have reclining seats!
Perhaps I'm easily impressed but I'm blown away by the value of this car.
Fueled by Caffeine said:Will said:nutherjrfan said:Accord is the better panty dropper.
There are only so many words in the English language and only so many ways to put them together. I congratulate you, sir, on creating a sentence that has truly never existed before this day.
Now ain't that some E36 M3.
Hey what happened to the Hanes her way post? That was hilarious.
volvoclearinghouse said:z31maniac said:In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
I'm sure they meant relative to what is currently offered. Is a Nissan Versa basic compared to a Model T? Of course not.
Is it basic compared to the new Audi RS4 wagon? Most defintely.
Of course my post was tongue in cheek. But is anyone taking out a 6 year (or longer) note on a Versa? My point was that these longer notes are naturally skewed heavily towards pricier cars, and the author was, in fact, full of E36 M3.
Unrelated, most states do cap interest rates on car loans. 20-25% is pretty common. And before you ask "Who the hell gets a car loan at 20%??", I will tell you I personally know more than one.
Do the math on a ten thousand dollar car note at 5 years and 20 percent. You'll die a little inside.
Yeah. No idea on taking out a loan that long on less expensive car. I suspect if stretching it out to 6 years is the only way to afford it, that's what some will do.
That's crazy, I can't imagine paying that interest level on anything!
z31maniac said:volvoclearinghouse said:z31maniac said:In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
I'm sure they meant relative to what is currently offered. Is a Nissan Versa basic compared to a Model T? Of course not.
Is it basic compared to the new Audi RS4 wagon? Most defintely.
Of course my post was tongue in cheek. But is anyone taking out a 6 year (or longer) note on a Versa? My point was that these longer notes are naturally skewed heavily towards pricier cars, and the author was, in fact, full of E36 M3.
Unrelated, most states do cap interest rates on car loans. 20-25% is pretty common. And before you ask "Who the hell gets a car loan at 20%??", I will tell you I personally know more than one.
Do the math on a ten thousand dollar car note at 5 years and 20 percent. You'll die a little inside.
Yeah. No idea on taking out a loan that long on less expensive car. I suspect if stretching it out to 6 years is the only way to afford it, that's what some will do.
That's crazy, I can't imagine paying that interest level on anything!
According to the Nissan website, with a 620 credit score you can get a 75 month loan at 11.8% on a Sentra with $0 down. Which is simply insane.
In reply to mtn :
Someone out there is thinking how awesome that apr is.
FuzzWuzzy said:In reply to mtn :
Someone out there is thinking how awesome that apr is.
Probably someone with a 620 credit score that can't put anything down (so can't buy a used car with cash) and "needs" a car.
I think it's twofold. Society is becoming more debt-tolerant in how it lives its life, and society is also becoming less informed while things get more complicated. Smart people at banks come up with all kinds of solutions to make money on a loan and the average person can't do the math. Most people revert to "I can afford this much per month" and don't really do the math to realize that "this loan will cost me three times what the car is worth."
I got out of the car sales business partly because of this phenomenon. I didn't do the math stuff, I just sold the people on the car and the bank-y guy in the office did the numbers. We had one lady who bought a used Buick for $279/mo because it was what she could afford. She didn't look at the fact that it was a really long-term loan and she was going to owe her left arm. Turns out, we discovered that the profit we were making on the deal was actually illegal in PA and we had to call her with "good news, we found better financing and it's only 239/mo." We were heroes in her eyes and had a customer for life. It made me want to vomit, so I got out. She probably died still owing twice what the car was worth.
I don't understand all the math, but I understand enough to know that I buy used cars for cash only. Of course, I'm blessed with mechanical knowledge and skills, so I can buy a $4000 Mazda and know how to keep it on the road. Same thing went for my house. I have a tiny mortgage which I'll pay off in a total of 5 years, but I wasn't going to give a bank $150k over 30 years for a house with a pricetag of $87k.
mtn said:z31maniac said:volvoclearinghouse said:z31maniac said:In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
I'm sure they meant relative to what is currently offered. Is a Nissan Versa basic compared to a Model T? Of course not.
Is it basic compared to the new Audi RS4 wagon? Most defintely.
Of course my post was tongue in cheek. But is anyone taking out a 6 year (or longer) note on a Versa? My point was that these longer notes are naturally skewed heavily towards pricier cars, and the author was, in fact, full of E36 M3.
Unrelated, most states do cap interest rates on car loans. 20-25% is pretty common. And before you ask "Who the hell gets a car loan at 20%??", I will tell you I personally know more than one.
Do the math on a ten thousand dollar car note at 5 years and 20 percent. You'll die a little inside.
Yeah. No idea on taking out a loan that long on less expensive car. I suspect if stretching it out to 6 years is the only way to afford it, that's what some will do.
That's crazy, I can't imagine paying that interest level on anything!
According to the Nissan website, with a 620 credit score you can get a 75 month loan at 11.8% on a Sentra with $0 down. Which is simply insane.
Guy who worked for me back in 2000 or so always wanted a Corvette so he bought an 86 at an amazing 17.9apr. I could not believe how proud of himself he was.
In reply to chandler :
Can I interest you in the age-old joke about young military members buying 10+ year old v6 Mustangs at dealerships right next to the base with19% apr?
On the way home at lunch today I heard an ad for a Kia dealer here in the OKC area.
"If you take home at least $350/wk, we can get you into a new Kia!"
Crazytown.
FuzzWuzzy said:In reply to chandler :
Can I interest you in the age-old joke about young military members buying 10+ year old v6 Mustangs at dealerships right next to the base with19% apr?
Friend's dad bought cars at 29% APR.
His financial advisor also told him to refinance his house every year. Imagine still having a 30 year mortgage when you are 62.
Perspective:
That Model T Ford was priced so that the average single income family could afford it on a year's salary. The Ford cost around $500 and a year's salary was considered to be around $500
A basic, entry level sedan is now around $25k new (I'm spitballing, I haven't priced new cars in years) and I believe the average yearly salary is better than that now.
Seems like cars are actually more affordable now.
mtn said:z31maniac said:volvoclearinghouse said:z31maniac said:In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
I'm sure they meant relative to what is currently offered. Is a Nissan Versa basic compared to a Model T? Of course not.
Is it basic compared to the new Audi RS4 wagon? Most defintely.
Of course my post was tongue in cheek. But is anyone taking out a 6 year (or longer) note on a Versa? My point was that these longer notes are naturally skewed heavily towards pricier cars, and the author was, in fact, full of E36 M3.
Unrelated, most states do cap interest rates on car loans. 20-25% is pretty common. And before you ask "Who the hell gets a car loan at 20%??", I will tell you I personally know more than one.
Do the math on a ten thousand dollar car note at 5 years and 20 percent. You'll die a little inside.
Yeah. No idea on taking out a loan that long on less expensive car. I suspect if stretching it out to 6 years is the only way to afford it, that's what some will do.
That's crazy, I can't imagine paying that interest level on anything!
According to the Nissan website, with a 620 credit score you can get a 75 month loan at 11.8% on a Sentra with $0 down. Which is simply insane.
|
The math on that. Pretty sure they came up with that % rate so they could advertize the payments as "UNDER $300 PER MONTH!"
Duke said:America's Middle Class Can't Afford Its Cars
Sorry, but poor buying decisions and lack of self control on the part of consumers are NOT failures of either the industry or the economy. There has never been a better bang-for-the-buck time to buy a new car.
I particularly like the irony of the personal example they give in the second or third paragraph.
Discuss?
Duke, you're right that (mostly, with an exemption I'll get to) these people shouldn't be spending all this money on new cars, but the article isn't wrong in its basic premise that new cars are becoming too expensive for today's middle class. Recently I read that the median income of today's new car buyer is $80k/yr. It's worth considering that maybe being "middle class" doesn't mean being able to comfortably afford a regular new car anymore. The bang for buck on new cars is good, but the new car price to middle class income ratio is, at best, unimproved over the last few decades.
There's also the phenomenon to consider at the bottom of the income scale where the large and lengthy but predictable payments on a new car are preferable to the low but highly unpredictable payments on a used car. That new car payment plan will absolutely get you a conveyance to get yourself to your circa-livable-wage job with for the entirety of the warranty period for a price that's set in stone. If you have a single used car on the other hand and something fails on it, a few hundred dollars of unexpected expenses could be enough to initiate a financial death spiral, and the time needed to get parts from the junkyard and put them on the car yourself could be incompatible with your continued employment. If you go the GRMer route and get multiple used cars...then you're eating up more and more of the cost advantage vs. a single new car and you're still not totally safe from a loss of personal transportation and surprise expenses, as we all know.
It's a dangerous game that the growing precariat is forced to play - unless they'd like to take what I call "the Unabomber option" and opt out of the economy and society by hiding in a shack in the woods and living off the land.
On the topic of living like a family in the '50s, I don't think it's really possible. First of all you can't buy a '50s-sized house today for inflation-adjusted '50s-house money. Next, technology prices haven't increased so drastically: The little bit of technology the average person used in the '50s probably didn't represent a much smaller slice of their income than a person spends today, since each item was relatively more expensive. And finally, that technology isn't a luxury, it's part of the increasing overhead cost of participating in the economy: that includes an internet connection and a smartphone now, at the very least. So let's say you ditch your TV service and live in a '50s-sized house with an Internet connection and a smartphone (low-end or used) for each member of the family, with data plans for at least the adults to fill in the wifi gaps, and a single new car. Maybe a small used TV/monitor with an Android box to stand in for the old wood-sided B&W CRT with rabbit ears. I think you would've blown past your "1950s living" budget with the house and car alone.
Read the whole thread and now all I’m thinking about how easy my life would be if I moved in next to my grandfather. He has been in the same house since 1955.
Andy Neuman said:Read the whole thread and now all I’m thinking about how easy my life would be if I moved in next to my grandfather. He has been in the same house since 1955.
A lot of folks my age or older express some level envy when I say my house is paid off. Then I tell them I've lived in the same house since 1992. 27 years ago. Even if I had maintained a 30 year mortgage, it would be paid off in less than 3 years in 2022.
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