Education vs The Job

Flight Service wrote: I guess to be succinct about my question is this: Why do companies require a generic bachelors degree for people to be qualified for a job?

I can't tell if you don't understand the answers folks have given to this question, or if you simply disagree with them.

To distill this thread down to a few pithy answers:

pres589 wrote: I think it's because HR isn't really that smart. Easy way to determine if you'll see something through to the end and can be teachable? Make sure they have a college degree that is of a level which would require the candidate to take multiple classes that "aren't fun"

mndsm wrote: I think what they're trying to do is weed out the goobers

alfadriver wrote: Finishing a college degree is tough. And some degrees are tougher than others- so the more responsibility, the tougher the requirements for the degree. And that nets jobs that have more responsibility as part of it.

02Pilot wrote: I'll sum it up in two words: critical thinking.

SVreX wrote: A college degree is a standard of measurement. It shows you can complete something, even if it is unpleasant. While it is obviously a mediocre standard of measurement, it's still a hell of a lot better than getting a bunch of people with zero official qualifications alone in a room trying to convince you they know what they are doing.

peter wrote: Diluting the applicant pool just doesn't make sense.

In reply to peter:

Nope I am asking opinions I'm sure there are other answers out there.

Any HR pros on here?

I just remembered I have a friend that is married to a HR pro just dropped an email see what i get back

I have a part time job teaching electrical theory to apprentice union electricians. In my experience 50% have a degree and a further 35% of them have some University. It's simple supply and demand. The union local receives ten applications for every job opening. A degree isn't a requirement but it does show that the applicant can be taught.

As a side note it's challenging teaching people who come in with varied backgrounds and education levels. In my last class I had a 54yo ex factory worker, who hadn't taken math since high school, and an electrical engineering grad. Hard to keep everyone's interest and not leave anyone behind.

Flight Service wrote:

z31maniac wrote:

Flight Service wrote:

z31maniac wrote: The amount of disdain, conjecture, and hyperbole in this thread regarding education............absolutely stinks of people with no college education. /troll

Define Education.... /Iliketotrolltoo

I did, by prefacing it with college. A college education. I'll wait for you to look up preface............

I understood you were talking about 13-16 grades, I just meant define "education" I understood your preface, you didn't understand my subject.

Absolutely I did.

It's a kind of schooling, acquisition of knowledge, etc. I know exactly the point you're trying to make. There are many different kinds.

Real talk? You obviously have a huge chip on your shoulder because you feel like you're just as capable for certain jobs as those who have a degree and you don't get a chance because you don't have the piece of paper. Sorry, that's how it works. You may be, or you may be underestimating the general knowledge and theory that you gain in a Bachelors-level degree.

z31maniac wrote: Real talk? You obviously have a huge chip on your shoulder because you feel like you're just as capable for certain jobs as those who have a degree and you don't get a chance because you don't have the piece of paper. Sorry, that's how it works.

^ Flight Service has two degrees.

I don't get his beef then.

Flight become a hiring manager and start hiring those without degrees?

One of our Tech VP's is a PhD in Physics. He hated Physics.

Our job postings state a experience requirement with and without a college degree. We'll hire you if you have significant experience without a degree. Good luck getting hired though, It's a damn tough company.

ProDarwin wrote: ^ Flight Service has two degrees.

Right.

And at the moment, they don't seem to be helping him with his critical thinking.

For better or worse, a post secondary diploma serves as a common denominator for the people who hire. If you have a degree, I can expect that you can read and write in full sentences. I figure you can problem solve and time manage to some degree. It also means that you are used to interacting with people who might represent the core socioeconomic profile of the client base; ""Yo" and "Bro" don't work here." is the message I got.

Hiring for a good position is a difficult task. You need to start somewhere to cull the herd, and in today's world, there are not lack of degreed people. So, as the person who does the hiring, you are pretty safe in not doing the company a disservice by putting in the requirement.

That said, most jobs trade hands as part of a contact network. If the right candidate gets a referral from the right person, I bet the degree thing falls off the table.

Hahahahahaha university teaching critical thinking??

Oh my, haven't laughed like that in a while. Especially the mention of the BA degrees teaching it.

Teh lulz is real in this thread. Note, I've been in two different degree programs. But some people in this thread seems to think their degree means E36 M3 all besides "I sat through classes and wrote some opinions down on paper". Oh man hahahahahaha

Note, there are some degrees that most certainly teach you a lot of things. " finding yourself" while coasting through some psych courses in your BA psychology degree isn't one of them.

z31maniac wrote: I don't get his beef then. Flight become a hiring manager and start hiring those without degrees?

I just get twisted when I don't understand something and this is something I remember when I was looking for jobs. I have seen retail companies demand a bachelors degrees to get minimum wage. Didn't effect me but I just see people struggling and see something that seems to be the hitch and can't figure out why they do it.

I have noticed for years that companies do a horrendous job of maximizing their human capital and not only is it at the companies determent by hiring another person, but they also add some disgruntled current employees because they get passed over for a job they are capable of and just get ignored, I know some HR excuses on this one (we have you trained for your position so we would just rather hire someone else, or some BS excuse. Ignore the fact they have someone that can not only do the open position but also train the new person, but that is a separate issue all together.)

SVreX wrote:

ProDarwin wrote: ^ Flight Service has two degrees.

Right. And at the moment, they don't seem to be helping him with his critical thinking.

I do have two degrees, and some other crap on paper from different places that people think something of.

I thought about something, I couldn't come up with a reasonable answer, I asked a question.

Apparently my critical thinking skills are flawed...

Although, sarcasm aside, the more high level schools I go through, the less I think of those that go by that brand. I believe education is extremely important, but I am not sure the prestigious names are deserving of the praise they receive. We will see on the next one if that cynicism holds.

WTF do you want?

You asked a question, and got several answers. Not good enough?

You just here to point out how inadequate everyone else is?

In reply to SVreX:

Your post is as useful as my rambling thoughts. I have several great insights on here as to what is going on. I appreciate everyone. My retorts come from people asking questions or drift. Nothing else.

I do find it amusing that you think that I am trying to be superior when I am far from it. But you take issue to most of what I post so I see no need for you to be considerate now.

The "degree in ANY field" thing, in general, irks me as well. College wasn't an option for me so a lot of doors are automatically closed when I look for a job.

I will single out flyin' miata and say I assumed they forgot a word and the ad should have read, "degree in any RELATED field".

I was temporarily peeved by the verbage in their ad simply because I hold them in such high regard. When the ad was placed it made them sound like every other company out there. I firmly believe they are a much better place and have much better people than the vast majority of custom/race car shops.

In reply to novaderrik:

Our company has the same problem finding press setup techs. They also ask for a degree or equivalent experience. What they've started to do is take entry level millwright students (non apprentice) from the local college for their co-op, then lure them with the money. It's a dirty and totally irresponsible trick on behalf of both the company and the schools.

As for the original question, in this case it's some misguided HR policy. If somebody with a degree applied for a press setup position, I'd think there's either something wrong with him, or he's going to leave as soon as he can get a real job.

Ive met an awful lot of people over the years who's credentials aren't worth the paper they're printed on...

Just because someone manages not to fail their chosen degree doesn't automatically mean they are competent in a practical situation or that they have a good work ethic.

Because education is a business, there's a vested interest in people passing their chosen course. Would people be so readily accruing huge education related debt if there was a good chance of coming out of it empty handed?

Some people do well on an academic environment, some don't, some do well in a practical situation, others not so.. It makes it very hard to cut the wheat from the chaff

I have no degree. Never went to college as it would have been money wasted at that age (I'd have just partied and flunked out). I do have many years of practical experience now and in my relatively narrow niche of work the lack of a degree hasn't been much of a deterrent.

I can tell you this: I've worked for several managers (a degree is required to have that title) who were horrifically incompetent and couldn't critically think how to operate a pull tab on a soda can. Corporations will refuse advancement to guys like me based upon the lack of a degree in flower arranging but give these guys positions who are clearly incapable of handling them.

Too much emphasis has been placed on degrees in the more 'generic' jobs. I get that someone designing bridges needs to be educated in mechanical engineering. Someone supervising a half-dozen people at an insurance company who went from dealership wash boy to degree'd idiot has no place being in charge of anything. Yet the requirement remains, passing over competent people who actually know the job.

Coupled to this is the constant emphasis on going to college as a save-all for everyone. Young people really need to consider the return on investment of going to school. Being tens of thousands of dollars in debt to get a job that pays $30k a year is bad business, yet we've been cranking them out into the world with no thought about the long term consequences.

But I shouldn't think about these things since I've never been taught 'critical thinking' which makes me too stupid to debate such topics.

Pretty well said^

I'm a drop out. I ran out of money; coupled with the situation where I realized what I had spent three years and countless buckets of money on was not for me. When I go to an interview for management and I don't hold a degree in history they seem peeved. I understand the requirement and the reasoning but cutting off a HUGE amount of the public for lack of diploma seems to be shorting them and the company.

There was a commercial on TV the other day that actually pointed out that real world experience is not being recruited, saw it in passing and can't remember who it was for.

Ive been on both sides and Ive had a lot more opportunities since graduating. Those are the rules of the game.

Saying that there are lots of managers with degrees that suck isnt 100% fair. Pretty much every service manager I ever had was insane and should never have been in charge of people and customer service. They didnt have degrees. I had a parts and service director try and talk me out of going to college because he didnt go and thought it was a waste.

ddavidv wrote: I have no degree. Never went to college as it would have been money wasted at that age (I'd have just partied and flunked out). I do have many years of practical experience now and in my relatively narrow niche of work the lack of a degree hasn't been much of a deterrent. I can tell you this: I've worked for several managers (a degree is required to have that title) who were horrifically incompetent and couldn't critically think how to operate a pull tab on a soda can. Corporations will refuse advancement to guys like me based upon the lack of a degree in flower arranging but give these guys positions who are clearly incapable of handling them. Too much emphasis has been placed on degrees in the more 'generic' jobs. I get that someone designing bridges needs to be educated in mechanical engineering. Someone supervising a half-dozen people at an insurance company who went from dealership wash boy to degree'd idiot has no place being in charge of anything. Yet the requirement remains, passing over competent people who actually know the job. Coupled to this is the constant emphasis on going to college as a save-all for everyone. Young people really need to consider the return on investment of going to school. Being tens of thousands of dollars in debt to get a job that pays $30k a year is bad business, yet we've been cranking them out into the world with no thought about the long term consequences. But I shouldn't think about these things since I've never been taught 'critical thinking' which makes me too stupid to debate such topics.

This is me, except that I started college and had to leave due to circumstances far beyond my control. For the longest time, it was possible to apply at pretty much any company, take an assessment test and they'd thin the applicant herd out with those. Now an applicant needs a generic bachelor's to be able to take that same assessment test? Makes no sense to me. In some ways, I think the real deal is that the various colleges have puffed up the worth of their diplomas to the point where a lot of companies actually believe the bullE36 M3. In fact, I once considered going into the insurance adjuster field; I've worked with many of them and it seemed quite interesting. I was told nope, no application without a bachelor's and to make it even better the starting salary would have been about $15k a year less than I was already making. The math just didn't add up; spend a wad of time and $ on a bachelor's to get a job where I'd have to work ten years to be able to get to where I was already financially? I guess them's the 'critical thinking' skills they are allegedly looking for.

Also, I have met some really smart people who never went to college and I've met some real idiots with sheepskins hanging on the wall. Of course, the reverse is true too.

For HR it's safer to cover their own asses and hire inferior employees who look good on paper than to take any of the risks involved in getting the best people.

I have to wonder if companies also think people carrying student debt will be more "reliable" than people who are debt-free.

And it's only going to get worse for the foreseeable future, this hell is just the beginning.

The degree opens doors in many fields, similar experience would have to be in a similar field probably with more time involved.

TRoglodyte wrote: The degree opens doors in many fields, similar experience would have to be in a similar field probably with more time involved.

I dont think anyone is arguing that.

I may go back and finish a 4 year degree program if I get laid off. My associates (equivalent In canuckistan) just isn't cutting it. I'd like to be in management eventually. I'd like to be in a different industry. And most of all, I'm getting tired of people looking down on me and my apprent lack of "critical thinking" because I didn't listen to a prof drone on for 3 hours about Freud.

Soeaking about degrees vs other paths, I've never faulted anyone for doing a trade, especially if you are ticketed in anything you are getting paid $40+/h anywhere in this province.

However, we have this thing called winter 6 months a year. Pretty big difference being a tradesman down in California vs one in Alberta. I always ask someone when they say they want to do a trade if they want to be working outside in -30*c weather when they are 55? Because that is reality for most tradesmen.

HiTempguy wrote: And most of all, I'm getting tired of people looking down on me and my apprent lack of "critical thinking" because I didn't listen to a prof drone on for 3 hours about Freud.

I get students with this attitude every semester (for the record, I do not teach philosophy, but other areas of the humanities). Outcomes are mixed.

Some eventually recognize that they do not, in fact, know everything they need to know already, and begin to work toward filling knowledge gaps they didn't know existed. This is always an uphill battle, because they've spent years feeling they'd already learned all they needed to. Non-traditional teaching methods (I'm a big advocate of game-based learning, but there are others as well of course) often help to demonstrate the issues at hand to students that don't respond well to traditional classroom environments.

Others refuse to accept that they actually need to learn anything, or in fact that there is anything worth learning beyond what they already know. Of course, this means that they spend the semester feeling that the whole exercise is a waste of time, and as such they get nothing from the experience but frustration, debt, and usually a failing grade.

How you approach education has a lot to do with what you get out of it. One of the purposes of a liberal arts education is to teach a reasoned, objective approach to understanding across different fields of study, in other words, critical thinking. This is not, of course, something that all students achieve equally, but the chance that it has been acquired goes up with a degree, which is one of the reasons why employers look for them as a sign of suitability for employment.