Education vs The Job

Wally wrote: My time in high school was pretty much useless. I did very well in English and science without any effort, and terrible in math no matter how much effort I put into. I should have gone to a vocational school but never considered it because our school only sent behavior problems there. Everyone else was destined for college and then greatness. I was talked into engineering because nearest my guidance counselor could figure that would get me working on cars without getting dirty. You don't want to end up dirty, you've got a 1300 SAT score. Labor is for idiots. I got accepted to New York Institute of Technology where my nonexistent study habits and short attention span did me in. Had I known at the time what other options were out there I would have made different and probably better decisions.

Wally, you and I went to different high schools together.

I was a 'gifted' student (that term still makes me want to hurl). Destined for greatness of course, yet the public education system couldn't figure out what to do with me. This was before everyone was diagnosed with ADHD and drugged out on Ritalin. I wanted to take auto shop; I mean c'mon...my entire life revolved around cars and I spent every spare minute reading magazines about them and browsing the Auto Locator. But noooo, I was too smart for that. Teaching me a trade would have been a 'waste'. So I graduated, didn't go to college (for reasons noted before) and then stumbled around in mediocre paying auto parts jobs until I found insurance appraising. If not for that 'accident' I'd still be behind a parts counter making $35k and wondering what went wrong.

This guy is one of the few people that understands folks like me. The education system sure doesn't.

Knurled wrote:

SVreX wrote: I am a much stronger fan of traditional family owned businesses as a model for ethical business conduct, where the owners try their best to treat their customers, employees, and competitors with dignity and respect.

"Family owned business" can also mean "there is a lot of stupid/shiny happy person in the company and we can't get rid of them because family".

That was my experience, twice. I just happen to like the shiny happy people at on of those jobs.

02Pilot wrote:

Knurled wrote:

02Pilot wrote: Rather than go into a long rant about the current state of higher education in general and liberal arts education in particular, I'll sum it up in two words: critical thinking. A good liberal arts education teaches people to analyze information and form logically-derived conclusions across a variety of disciplines.

That sounds like work. Can't I just have some guy on AM radio shout to me what I should be thinking?

Yup, you sure can. Life is all about choices.

and in some areas, a few on FM too!

ddavidv wrote: Wally, you and I went to different high schools together. I was a 'gifted' student (that term still makes me want to hurl). Destined for greatness of course, yet the public education system couldn't figure out what to do with me. This was before everyone was diagnosed with ADHD and drugged out on Ritalin. I wanted to take auto shop; I mean c'mon...my entire life revolved around cars and I spent every spare minute reading magazines about them and browsing the Auto Locator. But noooo, I was too smart for that. Teaching me a trade would have been a 'waste'. So I graduated, didn't go to college (for reasons noted before) and then stumbled around in mediocre paying auto parts jobs until I found insurance appraising. If not for that 'accident' I'd still be behind a parts counter making $35k and wondering what went wrong. This guy is one of the few people that understands folks like me. The education system sure doesn't.

Dude, thank you for saying it. I had the same kind of thing happen in high school, except my school didn't even have an auto shop. I've been muddling through learning all that junk on my own. Luckily (?) for me I'm still making it through college okay and I should graduate in another 2.5 years, and even luckier I'll have some job experience under my belt. While I can't say going to college has been the only thing that's made me think (far from the truth), college has opened up doors to learning experiences that I never thought I would have. I almost went to trade school despite the label of being "gifted", and in many ways I think I would know more had that been what I did. But, I picked my path and I'm happy to be sticking with it. My engineering degree will help me design and build better cars, for myself or consumers (or so I tell myself )

Same here. We had tech schools when I was a teen, but I wasn't allowed to go. My best friend wasn't so bright and was a bit of a trouble maker, so he was. He was also doing a co-op in a shop at 15 and working full time as a mechanic when he was 17.

Our current school system is the biggest waste of my tax money that I know of. The whole time my kids were there, I told them, don't worry about your grades, just pass and get out.

Hi all, late to the thread (vacation time). My take on the education front is slightly different. I went to a terrible high school back in the 80's where we were just pushed through and never really learned "how to learn".

Then joined the army where I learned a huge amount by having it crammed down my throat.

Followed by my first attempt at college at a wildly liberal northeastern university where the majority of the professors were more interested in grinding their particular political axes on the impressionable skulls of their students. I lasted three semesters there.

A few years later I tried college again thinking that nursing would be a good career choice and discovered it was very similar. In 6 semesters of a BSN program I learned about as much about the medical arts as I had in 10 weeks of medic school in the army. I did learn how to appreciate art, write a paper, and so on but it was so slow and so spread out that I found the process very frustrating.

Then a few years ago, frustrated by having over 200 hours of college and no degree I went back to night school and basically bought one in biomedical engineering (just in time to find out that while I was pursuing it my employer changed the rules and now require a year of experience before I even qualify for an interview*)

So my take away from higher education is this: unless you are an intelligent, free thinking individual to begin with the only thing accomplished by years of university is a polishing of your edges and making you a well formed cog to fit into most generic machines.

*ask me sometime about my ranking of professions I can do without. Lawyers and HR drones are near the top of that particular E36 M3 list.

mtn wrote: You want to get into a job that requires a college education without one? Work up from within the organization. You want to jump organizations? Have good references and someone recommending you from within. From a cold-start hiring from outside a company, the "degree required" weeds out a lot without any effort, and the remaining were at least smart enough or hard workign enough to get a degree. Are you missing qualified candidates that way? Certainly. Is it worht the time to find those ones? Probably not.

Yeah, good luck with that. I've seen far too many employers who either only fill higher-level positions from outside the organization or only promote from within based upon ass-kissing as opposed to merit. And asking a coworker to be a reference sounds like a great way to alert your current employer that you're looking for a new job and are a perfect candidate for downsizing.

SVreX wrote: Why should a business actaully care that a person gets out of debt? Debt makes an employee more reliable and dependent on their paycheck. I realize this sounds ridiculously cynical, and I could probably word it better if I took the time, but it is still how many businesses think these days. It's NOT what I believe in, nor how I have ever run my business, but it is how many (a majority?) think these days.

So I was right:

GameboyRMH wrote: I have to wonder if companies also think people carrying student debt will be more "reliable" than people who are debt-free.

I wish I wasn't...

SVreX wrote: In reply to PHeller: I don't think Uber has taken the high road in any way related to their business dealings. They recognize loopholes, and attempt to exploit them. For profit. That's pretty much it.

+1, Uber is a particularly nasty business, like something out of a cyberpunk novel. They're not David taking down Goliath, they've become the monster to beat the monster.

Zomby Woof wrote: Our current school system is the biggest waste of my tax money that I know of. The whole time my kids were there, I told them, don't worry about your grades, just pass and get out.

Everyone says that, and nobody seems that interested in fixing it. Get the kids through it, and walk away.

Instead of fixing it, we call it a waste of money, and cut the funding. Which is one reason higher education is so expensive- I went to the University of Idaho, and back in the 80's, most of the funding came from the state- so my tuition was just $500 a semester to start, $650 when I ended. Now that the state source of funding is less than half of what it was back then, tuition is much, much higher- and they still struggle keeping good professors. Michigan is the same way- but instead of struggling along like that, we have the alumni and donor base to do a pretty good job offsetting the tuition increases for many students.

This is a very fixable problem. If anyone was interested.

Your system is completely different than here, and so are the reasons for not fixing it. I only wish they would cut the funding. In half.

Zomby Woof wrote: Your system is completely different than here, and so are the reasons for not fixing it. I only wish they would cut the funding. In half.

Why? To make the future generation suffer more through a poor system? Would it make more sense to fix it?

Some US right-wing politician recently said something in a way that came off as anti-intellectual but was sadly correct - the core of the problem of skyrocketing higher education prices is that colleges have learned to abuse the accreditation system, effectively forming a cartel.

It's a really hard problem to solve...I think the same politician recommended abolishing the accreditation system which would be the end of any meaningful education, since MIT would now be competing on a level playing field with ITT Tech - it would be a race to the bottom where every college eventually becomes a useless diploma mill. This was the problem the accreditation system was made to prevent. But the accreditation system was destined to fail in exactly the manner that it now has - the potential and motive existed from the beginning (since colleges aren't run by angels), it was just a matter of time.

The other potential solution (which all the Americans on here will vehemently disagree with ) is for the government to step in. Giving the colleges the power to self-regulate has led to this cartel situation. Giving that power to an impartial 3rd party instead could take the self-interest out of the equation. Of course in practice the government is never going to be a perfectly impartial 3rd party - but it could well result in a better situation than what we have now.

The amount of hyperbole and conjecture in this thread is hilarious.

And terrifying.

z31maniac wrote: The amount of hyperbole and conjecture in this thread is hilarious. And terrifying.

Indeed.

Sky_Render wrote:

mtn wrote: You want to get into a job that requires a college education without one? Work up from within the organization. You want to jump organizations? Have good references and someone recommending you from within. From a cold-start hiring from outside a company, the "degree required" weeds out a lot without any effort, and the remaining were at least smart enough or hard workign enough to get a degree. Are you missing qualified candidates that way? Certainly. Is it worht the time to find those ones? Probably not.

Yeah, good luck with that. I've seen far too many employers who either only fill higher-level positions from outside the organization or only promote from within based upon ass-kissing as opposed to merit. And asking a coworker to be a reference sounds like a great way to alert your current employer that you're looking for a new job and are a perfect candidate for downsizing.

Gotta find the right employer, for sure. But I've been at a fortune 50 company where there were supervisors who started as temps, became phone reps, case specialists, then supervisors or analysts (analyst was lower ranking, but better pay). One even became a manager. At that point most of them either had hit their desired level of income and didn't care anymore, or they enrolled at the local colleges to get a degree--while it was possible, it was hard to move up without it.

As for the reference, you missed my point. Don't have a current co-worker recommend you, have a future co-worker. Both of the companies I've been at I was only looked at because someone internal to the company told someone to interview me.

z31maniac wrote: The amount of disdain, conjecture, and hyperbole in this thread regarding education............absolutely stinks of people with no college education. /troll

z31maniac wrote: The amount of hyperbole and conjecture in this thread is hilarious. And terrifying.

In reply to z31maniac:

so is your double posting from the cheap seats, hows the view?

Knurled wrote:

SVreX wrote: I am a much stronger fan of traditional family owned businesses as a model for ethical business conduct, where the owners try their best to treat their customers, employees, and competitors with dignity and respect.

"Family owned business" can also mean "there is a lot of stupid/shiny happy person in the company and we can't get rid of them because family".

Right. It can mean a lot of things in practice.

I didn't say it always works well. I said I was a fan of the model (aka: theoretical) when compared to Uber (which is an ethical quagmire, even in the theoretical).

alfadriver wrote:

Zomby Woof wrote: Your system is completely different than here, and so are the reasons for not fixing it. I only wish they would cut the funding. In half.

Why? To make the future generation suffer more through a poor system? Would it make more sense to fix it?

Like I said, our system is totally different than yours. Our teachers make big money, get a ridiculous amount of time off and still do a lousy job. Part of fixing the problem would be removing some of the excess. The system here is VERY fat and we get unbelievably poor value for our money.

I would warn people who might be quick to dismiss some of the complaints in this thread that if they are not careful, this is one of the starts of how unions get formed to gain a monopoly over the worker supply...

Is it me or does it sometime seem like more Americans are timid about self-employment? Even with all disruption of technology allowing contractors to connect with clients its still incredibly difficult to make a living as a freelancer.

Part of it could be that Americans are better educated and trained as part of the team rather than becoming experts in one specific thing, but its hard for well educated folks to work on their own terms. Conversely, if your uneducated but skilled labor, working when you feel like it seems much easier.

Perhaps the contractors of the community could correct me.

In reply to PHeller:

I'm not sure I understand your question.

Do you mean, "It seems like more highly educated Americans are timid about self-employment"?

That's an interesting thought. You might be on to something.

I can tell you in my own experience, I take the biggest risks when I have nothing to loose. The most entreprenurial moments of my life have always been when I had little at risk.

I currently have a good job, good benefits, kids at home to take care of. I'm not too interested in risk-taking.

My formal education level is not high. I have a degree which would not impress Flight Service.

My education in the school of hard knocks has been extensive.

I'd bet your skills are more self-employable than mine are, are probably more so than even Flight Service, despite the two of us even having degrees (I have an Associates in Business and Bachelors in Geography). Maybe I shouldn't speak on his behalf, but I currently don't have the skills I'd like to be self-employed.

I've posted about it before, but I really do see the value in having skills in a trade for this reason. So much of our white-collar job market can't exist outside of corporate employment.

Well, I apologize for some of my ranting. My day job (career) is in a very hostile work environment that I've been trying unsuccessfully for quite a while to get out of.

In reply to PHeller:

i get what you're saying; that some people's training and creds are to an institution where self-employement is likely impossible compared to most others.

are you self-employed? curious, myself...

I know for one I would not know how to conduct myself as self employed, it would be a huge risk for me as the person I am now. But it always appealed to me the idea of self employing.