Education vs The Job

I don't have much to add, but this is an interesting discussion. I've been considering this very question for my kids. They have a robotics program in the school he is going to next year, and he is really excited about it. They didn't have that kind of thing when I was in middle school, but if he decides that is what he wants to do, he's going to absolutely have to get a degree unless he invents and patents something impressive.

Sorry in advance. I didn't realize this would turn into a novel. It's not a pity party, I'm just telling some personal history to give a different, apparently lacking, perspective.

The fact that I am looked at as lazy, stupid and un-teachable due to my lack of a degree really pisses me off. I am none of those. A lot of people in my position are none of those things. I would rather not get into specifics on a public forum but berkeley it, I'm just a random guy on the internet, right?

Up until age 10 my childhood (predominantly addressing the financial aspects of my life) was close to average, we were on welfare but we had clothes, a house, a beater of a car and food. Then my parents split and I lived with one while the other disappeared for a bit and things got rough.

I grew up with a lack of what most people would call necessities; electricity and running water. We lived in a run-down house just outside of a tiny town with a E36 M3ty high school and very few job prospects for "our kind". Starting at age 12 I picked peaches and bucked hay bales during the summer for $5/hour. Rent was $250 per month and when I left at age 18, we were a few months behind.

(Foreshadowing: I destroyed my left shoulder the day I graduated High School trying to show off on the incline bench. This, like most of my other childhood injuries went untreated because "doctors are too expensive".)

Upon moving out I shared a rented house with my brother and was suddenly free in the world having had very little guidance as far as money or a career was concerned, but I was ecstatic at the prospect of having utilities after living nearly 8 years in the 1800's during the 1990's.

I had a low-paying job that covered my rent, food, a gym membership and put gas in my $200 Thunderbird. I had rehabbed my shoulder to about 70% range of motion with some pain and I was quite muscular and strong. I thought life was good. I thought I had achieved "life", that I was "living". My formative years had ground down my ambition quite a bit. "Aim low to succeed." So this was "it".

Then my car blew up on the way to work and I, being young and dumb, stopped at a stealership and paid waaayy too much for an '86 300ZX. I just HAD TO HAVE IT!!! My uncle co-signed since neither of my parents had decent credit or income. I was now making $6.75 per hour, paying just over $200 per month for my car payment and just over $200 per month for my insurance. I thought I was so grown up! This is what people do!

Then that car started having issues that gobbled up all of my money. I now said, "Hey, I need to increase my income!". I went on a job hunt for a few months and found precisely nothing. This was 1999, I was a 19 year old idiot with just under 1 year of experience as a security guard and a high school diploma. My car needed tires and I was hosed financially while still bumbling through life.

I needed a secure job that didn't require a commute and could lead to a college education, so I enlisted. I was overweight (215 lbs at only 5'7" tall) but since my only hobby was weight lifting I easily passed the tape measure test, 20" neck, 52" chest, 32" waist, 27" quads, FTW!!! About two months into boot I re-injured my shoulder and, upon examination by a Corpsman, was told I have a genetic laxity in my shoulders, that they dislocate very easily. Since the military wasn't the cause of the injury they didn't offer surgery or rehab, they just saddled me with an entry level separation, general non-punitive discharge and an RE3F re-enlistment code. Hosed.

There goes that plan...

So now I'm back sharing a house with my brother, worse off than I was before. I can't get my old job back so I take a minimum wage job at a local water park, do odd jobs on the side and sell scrap metal. Things get quite rough for a while until I sign up for a low limit credit card. After keeping this card in good standing for a while I somehow snag a $7,000 limit platinum card. I transfer the balance of the low limit card to the platinum card but apparently missed a charge or two and that later comes back to bite me on the ass.

At this point I'm 21 but, due to childhood experiences, I don't do any drugs or drink alcohol. I waste money on cars, weight lifting gear and supplements. At this time I was very loud, aggressive and vocal in my disdain for people who do drugs and drink alcohol. Including friends and family. This lead to some static with family members but I gave exactly zero E36 M3s. To my friends I was just that weird straight edge, violent berserker.

After a while the odd jobs and scrap metal dried up which lead to me defaulting on the 300ZX. (Unknowingly giving my uncle's credit a big hit.)

So, having very little money and no car, I did the dumbest thing possible and bought an '86 Mustang GT with my credit card. (This is the kind of thing I will prevent my children from doing, regardless of their age.) I decided NOW is the time to go to college. It's now or never!

I get a couple of grants through fafsa that pay for most of my books and tuition for a local community college and I am able to scrape together the rest of the money to attend. After a semester or two I'm really digging this college thing. My uncle (the same one) is going to the same school as me and we share a few classes for a while, until he takes a new job and drops out. Then, in the same week my clutch cable snaps and my fuel pump goes out. I am officially berkeleyed.

Pick two:

College

Car

House (still renting with my brother)

After dropping out things got REALLY rough for a while. Like wake up in the morning and wonder if you're going to eat that day rough. Then my neighbor, an old diesel mechanic, took a chance on me. He had seen me working on cars in the past and told me to apply at a particular diesel shop in St. Louis. He vouched for me and I landed the job. I couldn't believe my good fortune, $14.70 per hour! The people I knew just didn't make that kind of money! We were minimum wagers. I didn't care that my credit was absolutely wrecked and I couldn't get a loan to save my life, I was on cloud nine!

I worked at that shop for just under 2 1/2 years when some crooked E36 M3 went down and 7 of us, including my neighbor, were fired. (last I knew he had won a wrongful termination suit.) The new supervisor brought in a new crew... On the way home that day I pulled over and rage bawled. It probably took about 10 minutes to pull my E36 M3 together. I felt like I had been robbed and I was certain that I would never work with that kind of tight-knit crew or make that kind of money again. I was up to $17.15/hour. That was unheard of in my circle of friends.

Back to square one... again.

A family member had used their credit to finance 20 or so trucks for a local trucking company then, things went south. They split and said family member had trucks, a connection to a freight company but no mechanics. I was contacted and informed that I could be a partial owner of the company eventually if I got in now and made it through the low pay at the beginning. I reluctantly accepted and began working 70-80 hour weeks for a $300 per week salary wrenching on trucks in a gravel lot.

My brother came on board too but had no diesel experience so I trained him on a few things but, overall he has great mechanical aptitude and took to it like a duck to water. My step brother had automotive shop experience and was brought up from Georgia, all expenses paid, to join our little shop. This set off a few alarms with me and I started asking questions. Turns out I was being shafted. My brother had been making $500 per week all along and my step brother was also brought in at $500 per week. I "called a meeting" with all concerned parties and made it clear that the E36 M3 had come to an end and I was leaving immediately with the back pay that I was owed. I left, cash in hand. That's the only job I've ever quit without giving two weeks notice. My wife (girlfriend at the time) was 8 months pregnant.

I moved to central Illinois, landed a job at a local diesel shop and started looking to move up the financial ladder again. I was hired and trained by a local machine shop (A really great company that invests in their workers and sees them as a valuable asset.) in the machining trade and the rest is a much more pleasant history. These days my schedule sucks and occasionally the work environment sucks (I bitch about both frequently) but the pay is good. I tell my kids on a daily basis that they need to study hard and do well in school so they can go to college and earn degrees and, hopefully, not wind up an under-educated, bitter shiny happy person like their dad. The fact that they are already dis-advantaged due to my lack of achievement is another source of rage.

TL;DR:

I have made some foolish mistakes in my life but I am not lazy, stupid or un-teachable. I work hard, I am intelligent and I learn very quickly. I'm bitter that I had less opportunity at a higher education than most and carry a huge chip on my shoulder because of it.

In reply to The_Jed:

I appreciate you sharing. There is a lot in there.

How long ago was that $300 per week salary job? That was completely illegal- they owe you a lot of back pay and overtime, and it is usually an easy win.

I hear your frustration. Things have not gone well.

You are still a young man, and it's still possible to get that degree (though you may no longer need it). You could do it- you are obviously a hard worker.

In reply to SVreX:

I started with that company around August of '05 part time (went full time at some point in the spring of '06), IIRC and left in October of '06. They payed me an additional $200 for every week I worked full time before I left. I was satisfied with having retroactively been given equal pay.

Not surprisingly, that company went bankrupt several years ago.

Edit: The wife reminded me that after separating from the company I received a 1099 for the back pay and regular full time salary since neither had been taxed.

SVreX wrote: Businesses do not run themselves. Anyone who takes 2 months off from their business is getting ready to close, voluntarily or involuntarily.

From what I am inferring, you're thinking "I'm open from August to May. June and July I'm closed". You're absolutely right, in probably 99% of cases.

But think of it more as "I am going to take 3 day weekends for most of July and August, as well as a few in September. I'll also have the entire week of Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, and will take a week off in June for a family vacation, and half days on any day before a day off"

Just doing that gets you to 33 days of vacation. That doesn't seem like that much to me, assuming that you're not leaving the company completely out to dry. Sure, it is impossible the first few years, but after awhile you should have people in place or else processes in place that the company won't flounder if you're away for a week. Especially if you're checking in while on vacation.

Knurled wrote:

ProDarwin wrote: Probably a subject for another thread, but the prospect of 1-2 months off a year is one of the biggest draws of self employment.

I have problems with 3 day weekends. I can't stand being away from work for that long. There's WORK TO BE DONE.

Whoa, what kind of awesome job do you have!? Are you a photographer for a "men's magazine?"

The_Jed wrote: I tell my kids on a daily basis that they need to study hard and do well in school so they can go to college and earn degrees and, hopefully, not wind up an under-educated, bitter shiny happy person like their dad. The fact that they are already dis-advantaged due to my lack of achievement is another source of rage.

Point of view from a priveledged, college educated kid working a college educated job, from a college educated family: You have the right idea, but don't pigeon hole them to "college". They need an education--you got it, but later than you should have. The most important thing, IMHO, is a solid understanding of how personal finance works.

I have a lot of friends who are doing just fine not having gone to college, friends who are doing fine that did go to college, friends who are not doing fine who didn't go to college, as well as a lot who are not doing fine and did go to college. The common factor between those who are doing fine? They live below their means. Keep the break even low, save as much as you can.

Think about it, if you knew now what you knew then, would you have been OK? Don't buy that Nissan, don't buy that Mustang--that is at least $400 a month back in your budget. Almost $5,000 a year. Put that all to savings/investings. Then when the E36 M3storms hit, they aren't really that bad, are they? Obviously you know that now, but if you knew it then would your song be slightly different?

I just don't always think that college is the right answer. If it is for your kids, wonderful. But don't force them into what isn't right for them.

SVreX wrote: Potters are Artisan Contractors, but so are many lawyers and some doctors (among many others). So, IF you are an Artisan Contractor, AND happen to have value in what you offer that is enormous (like can charge $2K for an hour of your services with no overhead), AND are not married to growing the business, you can choose to take 2 months off and still have a business when you come back. That is an EXCEEDINGLY RARE combination.

I would argue that you have to make nowhere close to 2k per hour to be an artisan contractor. You just need to be ok with not making 100% of what you 'could' make.

I believe that any person with a skill can be an 'artisan contractor'. A plumber. An electrician. A software designer. A project manager. A fisher. A ski instructor. A corporate educator. A truck driver. Anyone with any skill. If you choose to be an artisan contractor, you can be one.

So its not the 2k per hour that makes it rare in the US, its the "married to growing the business" stipulation that makes it rare.

You guys are all talking like we don't live in the richest freaking country in the world in the richest freaking time in all history, and we are all somehow held with our noses to the grindstone by someone else's choices.

rcutclif wrote: the richest freaking time in all history

Richest in total. It's absolutely not the best time to be a lower/middle class worker.

mtn wrote:

The_Jed wrote: I tell my kids on a daily basis that they need to study hard and do well in school so they can go to college and earn degrees and, hopefully, not wind up an under-educated, bitter shiny happy person like their dad. The fact that they are already dis-advantaged due to my lack of achievement is another source of rage.

Point of view from a priveledged, college educated kid working a college educated job, from a college educated family: You have the right idea, but don't pigeon hole them to "college". They need an education--you got it, but later than you should have. The most important thing, IMHO, is a solid understanding of how personal finance works. I have a lot of friends who are doing just fine not having gone to college, friends who are doing fine that did go to college, friends who are not doing fine who didn't go to college, as well as a lot who are not doing fine and did go to college. The common factor between those who are doing fine? They live below their means. Keep the break even low, save as much as you can. Think about it, if you knew now what you knew then, would you have been OK? Don't buy that Nissan, don't buy that Mustang--that is at least $400 a month back in your budget. Almost $5,000 a year. Put that all to savings/investings. Then when the E36 M3storms hit, they aren't really that bad, are they? Obviously you know that now, but if you knew it then would your song be slightly different? I just don't always think that college is the right answer. If it is for your kids, wonderful. But don't force them into what isn't right for them.

I think you may have glossed over part of the situation. I had no car. And there was no budget, lol, part time work and scrap metal sales doesn't pay very well. I had enough money to exist, none to save. It's a phenomenon we former and current impoverished people refer to as "survival mode". Unless you've been there for an extended period of time you can't understand it. Moment to moment life, nothing exists in the long term.

I certainly could have shopped around had I been more proactive but, in that kind of situation lots of things get put on the back burner. I saw that one for sale when I needed a car, I wanted it so that was my car.

I appreciate the advice but a frequent stumbling block for me has been a lack of higher education. I don't want my children hung up by that as well.

Bottom line is that relatively speaking, we all won the birth lottery by being born in North America. Beyond that, life has no concept of "Fair Play" and we are on our own.

Most people figure this out early and develop a coping mechanism that suits their situation. Other people go though life demanding that life should be fair. Most people are too busy working their plan to even listen to the others.

NOHOME wrote: Bottom line is that relatively speaking, we all won the birth lottery by being born in North America.

It's possible to piss away this lottery prize, ask me how I know...

Knurled wrote:

ProDarwin wrote: Probably a subject for another thread, but the prospect of 1-2 months off a year is one of the biggest draws of self employment.

I have problems with 3 day weekends. I can't stand being away from work for that long. There's WORK TO BE DONE.

When my two businesses take off, I'd like to hire you. Name a price

GameboyRMH wrote:

NOHOME wrote: Bottom line is that relatively speaking, we all won the birth lottery by being born in North America.

It's possible to piss away this lottery prize, ask me how I know...

Ironically, most people who win lotteries piss away the prize. People who do not know how something was made can seldom maintain it. North America is kinda going though this problem.

The_Jed wrote:

mtn wrote:

The_Jed wrote: I tell my kids on a daily basis that they need to study hard and do well in school so they can go to college and earn degrees and, hopefully, not wind up an under-educated, bitter shiny happy person like their dad. The fact that they are already dis-advantaged due to my lack of achievement is another source of rage.

Point of view from a priveledged, college educated kid working a college educated job, from a college educated family: You have the right idea, but don't pigeon hole them to "college". They need an education--you got it, but later than you should have. The most important thing, IMHO, is a solid understanding of how personal finance works. I have a lot of friends who are doing just fine not having gone to college, friends who are doing fine that did go to college, friends who are not doing fine who didn't go to college, as well as a lot who are not doing fine and did go to college. The common factor between those who are doing fine? They live below their means. Keep the break even low, save as much as you can. Think about it, if you knew now what you knew then, would you have been OK? Don't buy that Nissan, don't buy that Mustang--that is at least $400 a month back in your budget. Almost $5,000 a year. Put that all to savings/investings. Then when the E36 M3storms hit, they aren't really that bad, are they? Obviously you know that now, but if you knew it then would your song be slightly different? I just don't always think that college is the right answer. If it is for your kids, wonderful. But don't force them into what isn't right for them.

I think you may have glossed over part of the situation. I had no car. And there was no budget, lol, part time work and scrap metal sales doesn't pay very well. I had enough money to exist, none to save. It's a phenomenon we former and current impoverished people refer to as "survival mode". Unless you've been there for an extended period of time you can't understand it. Moment to moment life, nothing exists in the long term. I certainly could have shopped around had I been more proactive but, in that kind of situation lots of things get put on the back burner. I saw that one for sale when I needed a car, I wanted it so that was my car. I appreciate the advice but a frequent stumbling block for me has been a lack of higher education. I don't want my children hung up by that as well.

But that is my point--you didn't think to shop around, you just jumped at it. Put yourself in the exact same situation, but give yourself the knowledge you have now--Do you buy that car, or do you find another one or bum rides from a friend or what? You had money to exist but not to save, why were you buying something you couldn't afford?

A lot of your stumbling blocks could very well have still been there with higher education, only with the possible additional burden of student loans.

Please note, I'm not trying to talk you out of encouraging college. I will more than likely do the same for my kids, and value my college education extremely highly. But I also was educated by my dad at an early age on finances, and I think that has helped more than anything. Well, that and a thorough understanding of Microsoft Excel--but that came from high school.

rcutclif wrote:

SVreX wrote: Potters are Artisan Contractors, but so are many lawyers and some doctors (among many others). So, IF you are an Artisan Contractor, AND happen to have value in what you offer that is enormous (like can charge $2K for an hour of your services with no overhead), AND are not married to growing the business, you can choose to take 2 months off and still have a business when you come back. That is an EXCEEDINGLY RARE combination.

I would argue that you have to make nowhere close to 2k per hour to be an artisan contractor. You just need to be ok with not making 100% of what you 'could' make. I believe that any person with a skill can be an 'artisan contractor'. A plumber. An electrician. A software designer. A project manager. A fisher. A ski instructor. A corporate educator. A truck driver. Anyone with any skill. If you choose to be an artisan contractor, you can be one. So its not the 2k per hour that makes it rare in the US, its the "married to growing the business" stipulation that makes it rare. You guys are all talking like we don't live in the richest freaking country in the world in the richest freaking time in all history, and we are all somehow held with our noses to the grindstone by someone else's choices.

Yep- missed that forest.

It has nothing to do with $2K per hour.

It has to do with maintaining business momentum, and unless all 3 of those stipulations are in place, it doesn't happen.

So, a plumber can make a decent wage. But, if he takes 2 months off, he will loose business momentum, and there will be no business.

The hardest times I generally work is when I have no work. That's when I have to call prospects, bid jobs, worry and stress, and shake every tree I can to try to drum up some business.

mtn wrote:

SVreX wrote: Businesses do not run themselves. Anyone who takes 2 months off from their business is getting ready to close, voluntarily or involuntarily.

From what I am inferring, you're thinking "I'm open from August to May. June and July I'm closed". You're absolutely right, in probably 99% of cases. But think of it more as "I am going to take 3 day weekends for most of July and August, as well as a few in September. I'll also have the entire week of Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, and will take a week off in June for a family vacation, and half days on any day before a day off" Just doing that gets you to 33 days of vacation. That doesn't seem like that much to me, assuming that you're not leaving the company completely out to dry. Sure, it is impossible the first few years, but after awhile you should have people in place or else processes in place that the company won't flounder if you're away for a week. Especially if you're checking in while on vacation.

That doesn't sound like a vacation to me. It sounds like a flexible work schedule.

I'll bet he has his cell phone turned on during those times, and takes business calls.

And you are forgetting to add back in the 14 hour workdays, the lost Sundays, the weeks he puts in 80 hours, the nights he has to stay up late doing taxes...

I am not complaining. It's a pretty good life for some people. I would choose no other if I had a choice, regardles of the pay or lack thereof. But the general idea of people who are not self employed who think "Gee, if I start a business, I can make as much as I want and take off as much time as I want" is simply a fairy tale.

I really don't think what you described is what pheller was talking about.

The worst business decision of my life is one I made to try and keep a crew running when times were slow.

I really liked the crew I had, and wanted to keep them together. I cared for their families, and had a strong desire to make sure they were all well provided for. I had always paid them well, and consistently encouraging them to grow and develop.

But we had no work. Times were really tough.

I had a pretty nice little house that was 100% paid for.

I figured I would start building a bigger house, and use it to keep the crew busy during the slow periods.

I built a monster. 5500 SF.

What I didn't realize was that we were not going to have any work for 8 months straight, and once I was in the commitment to build this monster, I kind of had to keep going downstream. I kept the entire crew together, and they drove every nail in that house.

But the soft market also meant I couldn't sell it. I sold my own (paid for) house, and moved in in late Fall.

I traded my nice little paid for house for a $375,000 mortgage, just to keep that crew together.

When Christmas came, bonuses were a little skinny. We had gone deeply into the hole that year, and the debt I'd taken on was a heavy burden. There was no money, and no credit line.

Even though I had told them every detail along the way, the crew interpreted the skinny bonus checks as greed on my part. They figured, "He's making enough money to build this giant house, and all we get is a pittance".

They all quit within the next month.

That was 15 years ago. I'm still in debt.

The smart business decision would have been to lay them all off, and keep my debt-free life.

I am sharing this to simply say, things are NOT always as they appear.

mtn wrote:

The_Jed wrote:

mtn wrote:

The_Jed wrote: I tell my kids on a daily basis that they need to study hard and do well in school so they can go to college and earn degrees and, hopefully, not wind up an under-educated, bitter shiny happy person like their dad. The fact that they are already dis-advantaged due to my lack of achievement is another source of rage.

Point of view from a priveledged, college educated kid working a college educated job, from a college educated family: You have the right idea, but don't pigeon hole them to "college". They need an education--you got it, but later than you should have. The most important thing, IMHO, is a solid understanding of how personal finance works. I have a lot of friends who are doing just fine not having gone to college, friends who are doing fine that did go to college, friends who are not doing fine who didn't go to college, as well as a lot who are not doing fine and did go to college. The common factor between those who are doing fine? They live below their means. Keep the break even low, save as much as you can. Think about it, if you knew now what you knew then, would you have been OK? Don't buy that Nissan, don't buy that Mustang--that is at least $400 a month back in your budget. Almost $5,000 a year. Put that all to savings/investings. Then when the E36 M3storms hit, they aren't really that bad, are they? Obviously you know that now, but if you knew it then would your song be slightly different? I just don't always think that college is the right answer. If it is for your kids, wonderful. But don't force them into what isn't right for them.

I think you may have glossed over part of the situation. I had no car. And there was no budget, lol, part time work and scrap metal sales doesn't pay very well. I had enough money to exist, none to save. It's a phenomenon we former and current impoverished people refer to as "survival mode". Unless you've been there for an extended period of time you can't understand it. Moment to moment life, nothing exists in the long term. I certainly could have shopped around had I been more proactive but, in that kind of situation lots of things get put on the back burner. I saw that one for sale when I needed a car, I wanted it so that was my car. I appreciate the advice but a frequent stumbling block for me has been a lack of higher education. I don't want my children hung up by that as well.

But that is my point--you didn't think to shop around, you just jumped at it. Put yourself in the exact same situation, but give yourself the knowledge you have now--Do you buy that car, or do you find another one or bum rides from a friend or what? You had money to exist but not to save, why were you buying something you couldn't afford? A lot of your stumbling blocks could very well have still been there with higher education, only with the possible additional burden of student loans. Please note, I'm not trying to talk you out of encouraging college. I will more than likely do the same for my kids, and value my college education extremely highly. But I also was educated by my dad at an early age on finances, and I think that has helped more than anything. Well, that and a thorough understanding of Microsoft Excel--but that came from high school.

Given the benefit of hindsight it's easy to pick apart the decisions I've made and see where I went wrong.

One thing you need to realize is poor people have the same desires as their affluent counterparts. Nice clothes, flavorful food, nice cars and nice houses, etc. We (in the past tense, if there is such a thing) just have to do it on a smaller scale and a much shorter term. That's why you see clapped out Mustangs and Camaros, old rusted out trucks with big mud tires on them and old sedans with huge rims all being driven by people who can barely afford to put $5 worth of gas in them. Buying the car isn't what landed them in poverty. That's just them "chasing the dream".

I needed a car but I didn't have the cash to buy one outright. Not even another $200 E36 M3ter that would blow up in 6 months. I couldn't get a loan either but, what I did have was this magical card full of buying power.

I wanted and had the means to get it so I did just that. Short term thought processes. The Mustang was a superfluous if not idiotic purchase. I was fulfilling a want that satisfied a need. It was the same story with the 300ZX, I needed a car to replace the dead Thunderbird but I didn't have the funds to pay cash. I needed a car I could rely on and it being in great shape with only 64,000 miles on the clock, made me think that car was it. Also the Z struck a cord with me and I just plain wanted it. At the time of the purchase I could afford the Nissan, until unexpected problems cropped up.

I'm sure no one here has ever bought a car simply because they wanted it. Especially when they were in their late teens.

I've completely gone off on a tangent and, while down in the rabbit hole of introspection writing my long-winded post, lost the original point of my little novella, which was this:

Anyone who looks down on those lacking a degree and makes the prejudicial assumption that they lack intelligence or are unteachable or are just plain lazy should take a good, hard, objective look at their own lives and the advantages they were born into, even if they may not consciously recognize them.

Remove the college educated parents.

Remove the upper crust grade schools and high schools that have passionate, motivated teachers, an up to date curriculum and proper college prep courses.

Remove the vehicle your parents bought for you or helped you buy. (If you bought it while living under their roof, they helped you.)

Remove the job you had, if that job was in any way related to your family or any connections they may have had.

Remove any financial help that came from your family.

Remove any housing assistance that came from your family. (Stayed with them, they payed for a dorm, etc.)

Remove any food they may have provided for you or bought for you.

Now, would you still have been able to attain that degree?

Datsun1500 wrote: My children have a choice when it's college time. If college is not for you, don't make me waste the money. I'd rather take that money and help you open a business, so see if there is something you would like to do for a living, and let's do it. None of my employees have graduated college, and they make a good living. My best guys are the ones that don't know what they want to do, but know what they don't want to do, ie: college and a cubicle. College used to be more "special" than high school. You got a better job with a degree. I don't think that's true as much anymore, a college degree is not "special" anymore. You know what is? Knowing how to fix stuff. HVAC/Plumbing/Electrical/Paving etc. There will always be a demand for that stuff. If you have the ambition, and a little smarts, you can start with a trade while you're young, and own the company at one point.

You tell your kids that?

Funny you bring up HVAC repair as an example of a good job without a college degree- and it is- I'm not saying that it's not a good career- our HVAC guy for home is a great guy and does well for himself.

But to even be able to work on HVAC requires engineers to design a system that works. And those engineers are required to get a college degree. So without a special college degree, new HVAC systems would not be designed.

And to do 90% of the jobs in the building I work at, it requires a college degree that is quite special.

Downplay college degrees all you want- they are your kids afterall.

But as an engineer who is involved in recruiting, I ask you to change your message. The world needs more engineers. We have a lot of technical problems that need solved.

The_Jed wrote: I've completely gone off on a tangent and, while down in the rabbit hole of introspection writing my long-winded post, lost the original point of my little novella, which was this: Anyone who looks down on those lacking a degree and makes the prejudicial assumption that they lack intelligence or are unteachable or are just plain lazy should take a good, hard, objective look at their own lives and the advantages they were born into, even if they may not consciously recognize them. Remove the college educated parents. Remove the upper crust grade schools and high schools that have passionate, motivated teachers, an up to date curriculum and proper college prep courses. Remove the vehicle your parents bought for you or helped you buy. (If you bought it while living under their roof, they helped you.) Remove the job you had, if that job was in any way related to your family or any connections they may have had. Remove any financial help that came from your family. Remove any housing assistance that came from your family. (Stayed with them, they payed for a dorm, etc.) Remove any food they may have provided for you or bought for you. Now, would you still have been able to attain that degree?

Yes.

My dad was the first in his family to go to college and got an engineering degree. His younger brother also got a degree.

My wife was the first in her family to go to college and get a degree (went onto get a PhD). Her younger sister also got a degree.

Neither was brought up in an affluent background. The only thing they had were parents that recognized the importance of an good education, and the encouragement that went with it. My grandfather was a janitor in a tiny school in the middle of nowhere, and yet my dad got an engineering degree from one of the better engineering colleges in the US (happens to be within 20 miles, which helped).

I'm pretty sure I could if they could.

As a tangent- it drives me crazy that people without degrees constantly think that people with degrees look down on them. Some do, sure- just like people without degrees bash smart people- which happens on a pretty regular basis. Stop. We all don't do that.

For me, The answer is still yes I would have gotten that degree. Because I got it without much of any assistance from my family.

They paid for the first semester then my mom and dad got divorced and the money was no longer there. So, I worked my ass off and had 2-3 jobs at all times or 1 full time 50 hour a week job to get that degree. Did I have some debt when I was done? Yeah. About as much as a nice new car. Was my 30K of Debt worth it? Oh heck yes.

I found ways to lower the bills a lot though. I CLEP'ed out of 21 credit hours. I took 2 semesters at a local CC at $33 a credit hour. I only took what I had to at the more expensive school and not an hour more. I ended up graduating with 2 credit hours more than the minimum I could have at the school and get a degree from them.

Everyone needs some sort of training outside of HS to have much more than a burger flipper life. It can be OTJ training, CC, Voc-Tech, or traditional college. Companies as less likely to do OTJ training anymore so It's becoming more and more the responsibility of the job seeker especially with the lack of good apprentice programs out there in the trades.

Oh and I would never look down on anyone without a degree. Most of my family does not have one and my 2 best friends never got one either.

NOHOME wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote:

NOHOME wrote: Bottom line is that relatively speaking, we all won the birth lottery by being born in North America.

It's possible to piss away this lottery prize, ask me how I know...

Ironically, most people who win lotteries piss away the prize. People who do not know how something was made can seldom maintain it. North America is kinda going though this problem.

I didn't really piss it away myself. My parents pissed it away for me by accident...an understandable mistake at the time really (even they admit that it wasn't smart in hindsight).

Now I'm just like any other broke-ass Caribbean local, except I have a funny accent, I don't like my women big, and a winter-free climate and slow-paced lifestyle don't provide all the satisfaction I need in life (in fact I really hate the slow-paced lifestyle. That E36 M3 cuts both ways). I don't know how people do it around here...sometimes I think the prospect of moving away is the only thing that keeps me going.

GameboyRMH wrote:

NOHOME wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote:

NOHOME wrote: Bottom line is that relatively speaking, we all won the birth lottery by being born in North America.

It's possible to piss away this lottery prize, ask me how I know...

Ironically, most people who win lotteries piss away the prize. People who do not know how something was made can seldom maintain it. North America is kinda going though this problem.

I didn't really piss it away myself. My parents pissed it away for me by accident...an understandable mistake at the time really (even they admit that it wasn't smart in hindsight). Now I'm just like any other broke-ass Caribbean local, except I have a funny accent, I don't like my women big, and a winter-free climate and slow-paced lifestyle don't provide all the satisfaction I need in life (in fact I really hate the slow-paced lifestyle. That E36 M3 cuts both ways). I don't know how people do it around here...sometimes I think the prospect of moving away is the only thing that keeps me going.

Where the heck are you? Sounds like Barbados or some such?

I grew up in Puerto Rico and I kinda know what you mean about the Island life; its great if you can afford to milk it for the good stuff and fly out when you need a break. Pretty sucky if you are not on that loop. Most of the locals who are out of the fast life slide into "Island Pace" meant to let the days and life go by.

I thought you were just here in Canada taking a driving test? Are you a permanent resident?