Education vs The Job

NOHOME wrote: I grew up in Puerto Rico and I kinda know what you mean about the Island life; its great if you can afford to milk it for the good stuff and fly out when you need a break. Pretty sucky if you are not on that loop. Most of the locals who are out of the fast life slide into "Island Pace" meant to let the days and life go by. I thought you were just here in Canada taking a driving test? Are you a permanent resident?

That's an interesting perspective of Puerto Rico. The people I know who grew up there all focused on a career- my wife got a degree, and then followed that up with a PhD. Her friends did the same- some went onto technical work on the island, some ended up doing technical work in on the mainland. But I saw their lives more of a hot version of any US lifestyle- they didn't do what we see as tourists of an island lifestyle.

And now- when people get impressed that we are going to Puerto Rico- I remind them that what we are doing is just going to visit parents- it happens to be really hot and humid all the time. Just like everyone else.

All of my wife's friends were very driven- one is an exec at a pharma company, one was on the exec path in the government, etc- typical driven people, as I see it.

NOHOME wrote: I thought you were just here in Canada taking a driving test? Are you a permanent resident?

Yeah I'm in Barbados, was in Canada on vacation taking a driving test a few weeks ago, I have dual citizenship. Around here jobs are hard to come by, and it doesn't really matter how driven or educated you are, if you don't have the right connections you're never going to make first-world money. You have to be connected to an old-money family or political power to be gifted those kinds of jobs. My sister once went to a job interview where they asked her practically nothing other than what "connections" she had.

I also thought of Puerto Rico as an American city with a tropical climate, from my short visit there.

The fast life is madly expensive here by the average local's perspective. It requires things like fast shipping, fast service from the government (requires connections or maybe a little palm-grease), hiring professionsals that do fast service (again, above the Average Joe's pay grade) and of course plane tickets.

GameboyRMH wrote: (in fact I really hate the slow-paced lifestyle. That E36 M3 cuts both ways).

Tell me about it. I'm not on an island, but the south can be pretty bad. I enjoy it 90% of the time, but other times its just infuriating.

For me I find it infuriating 90% of the time, enjoyable 10% of the time.

The_Jed wrote:

I understand what you're saying, and it sucks; but, I'd like to share part of my story.

Without going into depressing details, my childhood was worse, and I still got my BS. I had to work very hard and sacrifice pretty much all of my free time to do it. I had academic scholarships that paid for school, but I still had to work full-time 3rd/second shift at a gas station to do it. There were times when I only got to sleep every two days. I did have a pretty clean 1985 RX7 that I paid $1200 for, though.

I burned myself out after a 21 credit hour semester, and decided to join the National Guard as a break. I finished my degree, then got to hang out in a desert for a year. I used the post 9/11 GI Bill to pay for grad school.

My younger brother isn't like me. He uses our childhood as an excuse for why he's still working in restaurants cleaning dishes at 29 years old. He's constantly complaining about people treating him as if he's stupid. Thinking about how much time and money I've spent trying to help him turn his life around frustrates me to no end; I could have bought a lot of cool stuff with that cash. Life isn't fair, and some people have to work harder for what they want.

Having worked retail, it really pisses me off when someone treats a person like an idiot because he or she is running a cash register or lawnmower.

alfadriver wrote: But to even be able to work on HVAC requires engineers to design a system that works. And those engineers are required to get a college degree.

39 years in construction says that is often not the case.

80% of Residential HVAC work is designed by the installer. The balance is designed by HVAC "Engineers" who do not have a degree in the field, and rarely even reviewed by a Mechanical Engineer with a degree.

60% of Commercial HVAC is designed by the installer. 30% is designed by un-degreed in-house "Engineers" who get the plans rubber stamped by someone with a license. The remaining 10% is actually designed by Mechanical Engineers with degrees.

That is by job quantity. If judged by dollar volume, the stats change dramatically, because all of the biggest and most expense jobs are designed fully by Mechanical Engineers.

The point is, HVAC Technician is a pretty good job. HVAC Diagostic Technicians are worth their weight in gold.

I know several HVAC Mechanical Engineers who are having a very difficult time finding jobs.

In reply to SVreX:

So you are saying the pumps were designed by the technicians? The cooler packs were designed by techs? On the heater side, they are the ones who designed the heater? They are also the ones who spec'ed the ranges of what cooler size to use, what piping sizes to use, etc?

I'm not talking about what size to use for your house, I'm taking about the guts of the system. Or who designed the assembly line where the HVAC systems are made. You say all of that design were done by technicians?

Someone had to come up with the basic system that tech work with. Those are the engineers. And that's the irony I was pointing out.

If not for those engineers, the tech would have nothing to install.

In reply to alfadriver:

You said system design. HVAC systems are designed like I said. Equipment design is different.

Everybody can't be in the manufacturing sector.

I think you could turn it around just as easily. If there were no good HVAC Techs, we wouldn't have any need for HVAC Engineers.

In reply to alfadriver:

I think you are used to the automotive industry whose products have a very short life cycle.

I've been an Mech Eng in the following industries: Aluminum smelters, bulk material handling, municipal/industrial water treatment equipment, plastic piping manufacturing and industrial automation. Except for industrial automation, all those industries advance at a glacial pace, technology wise. Most of the equipment used has been designed 50+ years ago and hasn't really changed.

And while I haven't worked in HVAC myself, I have friends who do/did and they tell me it's basically the same.

And such a long life cycle means very little work for engineers in product development.

And product application design isn't much better. Most equipment is chosen with tables and charts that require little to no math and can easily be done by a good technician. So most big engineering firms will let the technicians do the grunt of the work and have one engineer look over and stamp the work if needs be.

With that said, I don't regret my engineering degree. I was a Mechanical Tech before I went to university for my BA. I think I learned quite a bit by doing so, but then I went to a special university that only teachs to students that already have a college degree. That makes a LOT of difference.

I've met enough incompetent engineering graduates to know that a diploma is NOT a good indicator of people's aptitudes. But the way things are, the people doing the hiring are often under-qualified to be good judges. So they rely on a piece of paper.

You are both missing my point.

HVAC tech was used as an example of a job that seemed to illustrate that college degrees are not special.

My point is that a special degree part of the engineer who designed the components of the system. An engineer designed it at some point in it's life, whether it was 100 years ago for the electric motor or a month ago for a new pump design.

If you want to argue the semantics of that for the sake of argument, go for it.

It's not anything about competencies, or anything about that. Just a simple irony of choosing an example of how college degrees are not special.

geez.

In reply to alfadriver:

What irony?

If you want to trace back processes, you can find an engineer in the process for most products and services.

Engineers designed vacuum cleaners and Port-O-Johns too.

Somewhat humorous but the president of the company I work for was in my shop today and told me straight forward "go finish your degree". /thread

ProDarwin wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: (in fact I really hate the slow-paced lifestyle. That E36 M3 cuts both ways).

Tell me about it. I'm not on an island, but the south can be pretty bad. I enjoy it 90% of the time, but other times its just infuriating.

It's infuriating 100% of the time for me. It bugs the E36 M3 out of me when people drive slow, walk slow, do things slow... THERE ARE THINgS TO BE DONE PEOPLE! GET A MOVE ON!

I pass the time by making strawman arguments about why the methhead welfare king scrap thiwf in the pickup is driving 65mph in the right lane. Clearly they don't have a job, after all anybody who is that slow in life would be fired in a day by any self respecting employer...

In reply to rotard:

My hat is off to you for overcoming your circumstances and achieving success, I wish I were as driven as you. It's too bad we're so far apart, I'd like to hear your story over a coffee, if you were inclined to share it. There's more to mine as well but nothing I'm willing to put on a public forum, despite the supposed anonymity of the internet.

Betcha can't guess what my major was during my short stint in college!

Huge job market there!

The_Jed wrote: Betcha can't guess what my major was during my short stint in college! Huge job market there!

When I was in university, a lot of my classmates switched their majors to psychology when they felt that they couldn't take the Science Death March any longer. Not me though, I tried to stick it out...

My sister wanted to be a child psychologist after she saw the Sixth Sense once (???) and went in to do that. Never used it, but she makes lots doing interior design & management for a high-end furniture shop. Her bosses are dicks who work her really hard though.

Hey Jed, one more peice of unsolicited advice for you and your parenting skills from a 25 year old without kids (is there a better source out there?)... Whatever you encourage your kids to do, make sure that they are understanding Math at the very least. Preferably everything else, especially science, but especially mathematics. Get them tutors in it (I can probably find you cheap tutors in Peoria if you need help with that).

Then, teach them how to balance a checkbook, and teach them to keep their break even low. Work on a zero sum budget, and you always pay yourself first.

Neither I nor my roommate grew up terribly, however, when it came it getting a degree?

He worked 55-60 hours a week to pay for college, which he attended full-time while also working. Just depends if you're willing to work for what you want.

alfadriver wrote:

NOHOME wrote: I grew up in Puerto Rico and I kinda know what you mean about the Island life; its great if you can afford to milk it for the good stuff and fly out when you need a break. Pretty sucky if you are not on that loop. Most of the locals who are out of the fast life slide into "Island Pace" meant to let the days and life go by. I thought you were just here in Canada taking a driving test? Are you a permanent resident?

That's an interesting perspective of Puerto Rico. The people I know who grew up there all focused on a career- my wife got a degree, and then followed that up with a PhD. Her friends did the same- some went onto technical work on the island, some ended up doing technical work in on the mainland. But I saw their lives more of a hot version of any US lifestyle- they didn't do what we see as tourists of an island lifestyle. And now- when people get impressed that we are going to Puerto Rico- I remind them that what we are doing is just going to visit parents- it happens to be really hot and humid all the time. Just like everyone else. All of my wife's friends were very driven- one is an exec at a pharma company, one was on the exec path in the government, etc- typical driven people, as I see it.

Sounds like your family falls into the first group: Good careers and incomes that allow them to interface with the mainland when they want and to hang out at home when they feel like it.

PR does have a very different flavour. I just went back a few times after a 40 year absence, and I instantly fell back into it. I like it, wife feels out of place!

One effect of living there is that I do not like "All Inclusive" resorts. Or tourism in general. The people attending often treat the locals like crap and the locals tend to have a disdain for the tourist.

Gameboy:

I do know of one Barbados rags to riches success story that did not require a degree. A friend of mine from University (she is a Bajan) married a guy who got into refrigeration via a tech course in Miami. Seems he did a great job of taking over a lot of the ice industry on the island. So there is hope if you can find a niche. But I agree, the islands are a closed society for the most part.