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93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
2/1/11 4:30 p.m.
wbjones wrote:
SVreX wrote: - Are we sure we want the Fed meddling in education?
and it's not now ? ever heard of "no child left behind" ? according to my teacher friends that is the worst thing that's happened to public education in an awfully long time... they say that the only way they can keep their jobs is to teach the test...... no more creative teaching, just make sure the kids pass the end of yr test..... as for everyone wanting a college education...... I'll acknowledge up front that I'm an old fart ... back when I was coming along ( que the really old grandpa's voice here) not everyone even wanted to go to college.. 'course you could make a decent living with a high school diploma ... many of us went to tech school (or more commonly called trade schools back then) + some actually worked their way through school... 'course they didn't go to Duke or (as mentioned) Davidson or schools of that level.. (notice I didn't say quality) nor did they go to NCSU or UNC ... there are LOTS of small public and private colleges out there that don't cost an arm and a leg (cost to attend Duke: About $48000/yr, including tuition, fees, books) the education might not be as "good" or as prestigious, but really the only thing that the diploma does is get you your first job....... after that it's more about you performance (for the most part) than where you went

Show me a college which doesn't cost an arm and leg. I mean my college was ranked as one of the best colleges for value and it still cost $740 per a credit hour plus either $600 a month for dorms or $500+ a month for apartments plus books and other fees. It is still expensive and it is getting harder to get a job without a college degree.

Otto Maddox
Otto Maddox HalfDork
2/1/11 4:54 p.m.

This isn't directed at anybody in particular but I've never understood the adding the cost of housing to the cost of college. People regularly refer to room and board. Do they figure they won't need food or a place to live from the age of 18-22 if they skip college? Sure they might be able to mooch off their parents, but the same holds true for going to college. Most kids have a college within commuting distance from their parents' house.

I think some of this is a sense of entitlement - I should be able to go to the school I like. I don't care if it is out of state or a private school. I don't care if it is located in an area where housing is expensive. And I want a car to drive around when I am there. And I need to be in a Greek organization. And I need to go to the beach for spring break. And all this should be really affordable. And if I can't have all these things, it is because the people of this nation are too stupid to fund education.

If college is too expensive, if you can't recoup its cost in a reasonable amount of time after you graduate, then change your plans. Live at home, get a part-time job, join ROTC, go to junior college, take only a few classes at a time or failing all else, skip college and get a job. I went through this whole process over 20 years ago and it worked out fine for me. It just required a lot of hard work and planning.

Is that too harsh?

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/1/11 5:10 p.m.

(Okay, sorry, another long post. Skip it if you like, but some ideas you’ve maybe not heard before if you suffer through the whole thing.)

Just my opinion.

Schools were better not too many years ago than they are now. They weren't good, but they were better. NCLB is a disaster. The testing doesn't work. Teaching to the test isn't teaching. Educators should solve the problems in education. And, yes, the solutions involve spending money.

I don't believe NCLB was ever intended to work. I think it was a step in a long term plan to privatize education. Along with “school vouchers” and “charter schools”, there is a movement to drastically cut the education offered to American children. I also think the "the more we spend the worse it gets" language is designed to that end. Of course, that's an absurd thing to say. It's crafted to imply a causal and inverse relationship between spending and effectiveness, which, of course, defies logic. Taken to its ultimate conclusion, we can only assume the very best education system will be the result of zero spending.

But look at the private schools that perform better. Do they spend less per student than the public schools? (Depends on what you measure- services provided etc., but regular student in regular classroom they spend more on the student. Bear in mind the parents bear more responsability for many costs at private schools, teachers make less, for a number of reasons, one of which I'll touch on in a minute, and they can refuse service to problematic students... which leads me to.) What they have going for them is the same thing the schools in China have – the kids that are a problem aren’t there. And the teachers who are there want to be there. The work environment for them is so much better than it is for teachers in many public schools.

In my opinion, the solution is not to abandon the problem children. Allll kinds of things going on there that schools shouldn’t have to address. I completely agree with that. But fewer resources make it worse, not better. My solution? Kids cause problems or don’t show up for school, they’re removed from the “regular” school and are put in the “problem child” school. This is not a dead end school. This is a school with a much lower student to teacher ratio. Teachers with a lot more training. These schools would have a much longer school day that would include a fair bit of counseling. More time at school means less time getting into trouble somewhere else. For the real, real had cases, which would be a very few kids, there’s a boarding school.

It would cost a lot. We’d have to (gasp!) raise taxes. But think of the pay-off. Think how much better our neighborhoods would be. Think how many kids who would have ended up in jail will now end up with jobs. In the long run it would pay for itself many times over. Fewer people in jail. A largely effective solution to the “gang problem”. Much less crime. Many more people working and paying taxes.

A lot of these kids made one mistake- they picked the wrong parents. And I think it’s completely within our rights as a society to say “you failed as a parent and you have lost that privilege.” Really, the parents of the few kids who would end up in the “boarding school” option are likely not going to get too bent out of shape about them being taken away. If they really cared that much, we wouldn’t have gangs of unsupervised kids running around the streets of our cities selling drugs and shooting each other.

This would work in conjunction with my plan to put a lot more police on the streets (How many? As many as it takes) and almost completely defund the gangs by legalizing drugs. But those are for a different thread. I’ll stop before I pie myself.

MitchellC
MitchellC Dork
2/1/11 6:35 p.m.
93EXCivic wrote: Show me a college which doesn't cost an arm and leg. I mean my college was ranked as one of the best colleges for value and it still cost $740 per a credit hour plus either $600 a month for dorms or $500+ a month for apartments plus books and other fees. It is still expensive and it is getting harder to get a job without a college degree.

My in-state tuition at the University of Florida is about $125/hr. I work full-time to pay off my part-time education costs, which is doable, but barely. I don't have any student loans at the moment, but I am perpetually broke.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
2/1/11 6:39 p.m.

In reply to fast_eddie_72:

Private schools here do elementary education for $1000 per student less per year. They tend to get more problem children because the parents are looking for solutions the public school system won't offer. Testing performance is perfectly reasonable. Schools were not succeeding in teaching basic skills and now they bitch about being tested on those skills. Bah!

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/1/11 7:19 p.m.
MrJoshua wrote: They tend to get more problem children because the parents are looking for solutions the public school system won't offer.

Look at what you just said. Parents who care enough about their children's education chose to take them out of a free school and put them in one they pay for. I'm not a teacher, but if I was, I'd take a classroom full of "problem" students who had parents who cared that much.

Private schools do not educate children for less. The vast majority are religiously based and operate at a loss. in other words, what parents pay for education is not what it costs. Not the same thing. The propaganda about private schools magically educating children for no money is overstated. If you look at non religious private schools, they spend a good deal more.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/30/AR2009083002335.html

I went to Catholic schools. Many of my teachers and school administrators were nuns. There is an enormous saving on staffing in Catholic schools.

wcelliot
wcelliot HalfDork
2/1/11 7:24 p.m.

I fully concur that parents are the #1 problem.

I mentioned my parents were both public school teachers. At the beingging of their career, the fastest way to get a student to behave was to threaten to call their parents. Whatever the punishment at school, the kids got it MUCH worse at home.

At the end of their career, it was the kids threatening to call their parents who could always be counted on to defend their kid no matter what the situation, threaten to sue, etc.

That necessarily causes a change in the way teachers handle things... and not for the better.

Bill

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
2/1/11 7:36 p.m.

In reply to fast_eddie_72:

The parents of these problem students expect the private educator to fix what the public school system calls a medical condition. Many of these kids are in dropped off at 7:30 AM and picked up on the parents way home from work. The parents are often successful people, but they are not teaching the children at home. They expect the educator to do it or they "fire" the school and go somewhere else. Amazing what happens when your funding relies on results. My child is in a private school, I pay the bill every month. It is not religious and is not operating at a loss. It is $1000 less a year than the public schools around here get per student.

BTW-those kids dropped of early and picked up late are in an education setting no more hours a day than those in public schools. The hours before and after are spent on the playground.

Edit-The problem students at private schools are not just the over medically diagnosed set, they include every other problem behavior. It baffles me that people think private school parents are somehow easier to deal with. They/we are a very very demanding bunch who is paying lots of money and has a skewed view of how brilliant and good our little angel is. If the student does poorly in any area of academics or behavior it is the parents expectation that the school will work hard to fix it.

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
2/1/11 7:38 p.m.

I am a homeschooling parent with 5 excelling students. 2 are college aged, 1 has earned a Fulbright Scholarship for post graduate work and worked in 4 different countries in 4 different languages.

They got NOTHING in the way of the free public propaganda education. They also got almost nothing from me in the way of finances for their college education.

I'm the wrong guy to get into a debate about how much more education you get when you pay more.

We do not need to throw tax dollars at a failing system to have successful education. We need to get involved in the process of learning.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/1/11 7:42 p.m.
MrJoshua wrote: In reply to fast_eddie_72: The parents of these problem students expect the private educator to fix what the public school system calls a medical condition. Many of these kids are in dropped off at 7:30 AM and picked up on the parents way home from work. The parents are often successful people, but they are not teaching the children at home. They expect the educator to do it or they "fire" the school and go somewhere else. Amazing what happens when your funding relies on results. My child is in a private school, I pay the bill every month. It is not religious and is not operating at a loss. It is $1000 less a year than the public schools around here get per student. BTW-those kids dropped of early and picked up late are in an education setting no more hours a day than those in public schools. The hours before and after are spent on the playground.

You seem to have found a very special place for your child. I'm happy to hear that.

I was one of those children with two working parents who got dropped off very early and picked up very late. I know a thing or two about it. I also did not make up the figures in the article I posted above. You may have anecdotal evidence of a school somewhere that is outside the norm, but I stand by my statement.

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
2/1/11 7:43 p.m.

On the issue of ADHD:

I have coached community sports teams for 11 years (22 seasons of regular season soccer and baseball, plus about 7 years of post season).

Of the 29 teams I've coached, it is pretty consistent. On average, 10 out of 13 young players will be medicated into numbness.

Don't get me wrong, there is clearly a real issue known as ADHD, and it is a big struggle. But there is no way it is possible that many kids need medication. Something is wrong.

Lazy parents, lazy teachers, lazy administrators who just don't know how to deal with energetic creative kids, or want to.

My apologies to those who struggle.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/1/11 7:44 p.m.
SVreX wrote: We do not need to throw tax dollars at a failing system to have successful education. We need to get involved in the process of learning.

"Throw money"? No. Spend wisely? Yes. Get involved in the process? Absolutely, 100% agree.

It's not fair to let our society fail a huge number of our citizens, then when their unwanted, undisciplined children don't do well in school blame the school.

wbjones
wbjones Dork
2/1/11 7:46 p.m.
93EXCivic wrote: <b Show me a college which doesn't cost an arm and leg. I mean my college was ranked as one of the best colleges for value and it still cost $740 per a credit hour plus either $600 a month for dorms or $500+ a month for apartments plus books and other fees. It is still expensive and it is getting harder to get a job without a college degree.

here's a site that'll list a few...one of them even in Ky......

http://www.walletpop.com/2009/11/09/cheapest-colleges-13-standup-schools-that-cost-less-than-5-000/

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/1/11 7:49 p.m.
SVreX wrote: On the issue of ADHD: Of the 29 teams I've coached, it is pretty consistent. On average, 10 out of 13 young players will be medicated into numbness.

I don't think it's accurate to imply that 77% of children are being medicated for ADHD. Reports written to show how over-diagnosed the condition is (which, I agree, it is) claim something on the order of 8%. And if you met my daughter, the word "numbness" wouldn't leap to mind. If a child seems "numb" on the medication, the don't have ADHD.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
2/1/11 7:50 p.m.

In reply to fast_eddie_72:

Your evidence in anecdotal as well. That article references one School District and cherry picks data out of that district to make a point.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/1/11 7:54 p.m.
MrJoshua wrote: In reply to fast_eddie_72: Your evidence in anecdotal as well. That article references one School District and cherry picks data out of that district to make a point.

Probably. Still, a sample larger than "one".

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
2/1/11 7:54 p.m.

I didn't say 77%. I said for 11 years I have had the vast majority of my students on medication.

I make no representations to national averages. I'm just sharing my experiences.

Don't forget, I live in one of the poorest districts in the country. I'm just saying...

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
2/1/11 7:54 p.m.

In reply to fast_eddie_72:

Cherry picked data.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/1/11 7:57 p.m.
SVreX wrote: On average, 10 out of 13 young players will be medicated into numbness.
SVreX wrote: I didn't say 77%.

Well, like I said earlier, I'm not so good with math. Maybe I misunderstood the 10 of 13 to mean something other than you intended.

SVreX wrote: Don't forget, I live in one of the poorest districts in the country. I'm just saying...

I understand. I'm just sharing my experience as well. There is some hard data on the subject. My understanding, which may well be wrong, is that children in more affluent communities are more likely to be diagnosed and treated for ADHD. There is also a high correlation between insurance coverage and medication for ADHD. To be honest, if I didn't have insurance, I don't think I'd pay the full price for even the generic medication for myself. I would probably try to for my daughter, but it would be very expensive.

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
2/1/11 7:59 p.m.
93EXCivic wrote: Show me a college which doesn't cost an arm and leg. I mean my college was ranked as one of the best colleges for value and it still cost $740 per a credit hour plus either $600 a month for dorms or $500+ a month for apartments plus books and other fees. It is still expensive and it is getting harder to get a job without a college degree.

Your experience is not representative of all places.

In the state of GA, any student can get essentially free tuition if they pick the right school and keep their grades up.

My daughter didn't do it that way. She earned hundreds of thousands of dollars of scholarships through nothing more than sheer determination and darned hard work.

If a college education is an entitlement, it can get pretty expensive. If it is something you have an intense passion for and want more than breath itself (like my daughter), there are plenty of ways to get through school.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/1/11 8:00 p.m.
MrJoshua wrote: In reply to fast_eddie_72: Cherry picked data.

Probably. Still, a sample larger than "one".

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
2/1/11 8:04 p.m.

Come on, fast_eddie_72. Is this pissing match necessary?

You said "77% of children". I did not. I made no representations of any nationwide or large group of children. I specifically referred to a very small group of particular people with whom I have personal experience.

I am not claiming to be a sampling. I am sharing my experience with over-diagnoses.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
2/1/11 8:05 p.m.

In reply to fast_eddie_72:

Quoted article says:

"Per-student spending in the Washington region's public schools ranged from $10,400 to $19,300"

"The secular private schools analyzed in the study spent $20,100 on each student in the 2007-08 school year vs. $10,100 in public schools."

Is it $10,100 or $10,400? I like how the average cost for public schools is lower than the lowest amount given in the range quote. The article is all over the place and doesn't agree with itself on even the basic figures. Find something better if you hope to convince me.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/1/11 8:09 p.m.
SVreX wrote: Come on, fast_eddie_72. Is this pissing match necessary? You said "77% of children". I did not.

Seriously, I'm not trying to get into a pissing match. Honestly, did I misunderstand what you meant with the 10 of 13 number? I just find it difficult to believe there is a school with that many children being treated with medication for ADHD. I understand you're talking about one place and not a national average, but it would be really unusual for one area to have such a huge difference from the national norm.

I'm pissing everyone off again and I don't mean to, so I may need to get out of this one. Looks like I've pied myself after all. Not my intent.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/1/11 8:13 p.m.
MrJoshua wrote: The article is all over the place and doesn't agree with itself on even the basic figures. Find something better if you hope to convince me.

Well, look, I'm just sharing what I found. Could be wrong. Dunno. Like I said, you're almost certainly right that they are presenting the data in a way that makes their point and it isn't an unbiased view. I just don't think it's any more biased than the opinion often stated on the other side of the argument and the article does at least try to show another view. That's all.

Is it right? Dunno, I didn't do the research.

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