My withdrawn 11 y.o. daughter has expressed some interest in learning keyboard on my old, out of tune piano. It'll cost much less to get a keyboard to assess how serious she is than to get the piano tuned. Any recommendations? We're looking for cheap, here, just in case her interest fizzles quickly...
Something by Yamaha.
1988RedT2 said:Something by Yamaha.
I looked closely at the Yamaha Clavinova digital pianos years ago, but ended up choosing a Kawai CA series digital piano. I'm pretty happy with it, but it was about $4000 CDN.
https://kawaius.com/pianos/digital-pianos/
The big question is how realistic you want the action to be. If you're just dipping your toes into the pool to see if you like the feel of water, there are keyboards all over Craigbooks. FB even has a musical instrument section. Or swing by Goodwill or a reStore or a local music store.
Took a quick look on my local FB and found a bunch under $100. And an LS1 944 Turbo for sale.
Very few manufacturers have mastered the ability to make an electric feel like a real piano. The Yamaha Clavinova is the best you'll find. That will make the transition to real piano a little easier, but still not a slam dunk.
A true-weighted keyboard will help, but there is also processing, accelerometers, and pressure sensors at play. No computer algorithm can really accurately represent the sounds created by felt hammers and fingers. In order for the digital processing to be fast enough that you don't notice lag between the keystroke and the sound, it has to give up accuracy.
Yamaha does it best. One of my pit musicians at the theater is a concert pianist. She complains the least when I put a Clavinova in front of her, but she will not play synth for my shows. She's just so trained on a piano that she can't transition well to something that doesn't feel the same.
But, to be clear, transitioning from a keyboard with semi-weighted keys or non-weighted keys to a real piano is like transitioning from a flight simulator to a Cessna. I think if she wants to test the waters and plunk, any old Casio will do, but if she actually gets into it, get her on a good machine fast so she doesn't have trouble with muscle memory.
What I'm saying is... if she wants to play, it makes little sense to start her with something that doesn't represent what she'll actually be learning. That's like wanting to dip your toes into racing Camaros so you buy a cheap Berlinetta and one of two things happen: 1) you hate the car so much that you ditch the idea, or 2) you like it and transition to a 2018 LS/6 speed Camaro and realize that the Berlinetta has nothing in common with the fine instrument you ended up with. I would recommend buying something relatively good that you can sell for the same money if she bails.
$500 Clavinova. Great deal. Going rate around here is $500-900 depending on the model.
You guys are getting sidelined by the (piano) in the subject. If it gets to that point, just tune the one already in the house :)
How about teaching the kid on the out of tune, existing piano?
Its like a car with a slight misfire. No reason you couldn't learn to drive in a car with a misfire
John Welsh said:How about teaching the kid on the out of tune, existing piano?
Its like a car with a slight misfire. No reason you couldn't learn to drive in a car with a misfire
Well, that's possible except I'd like her to be able to take the keyboard to her room and listen with headphones instead of her learning experience being heard by the whole house... I'm not so much interested in her being able to transition to an actual piano as trying to foster her desire to learn to play a musical instrument of some kind.
FYI, consider this if you're getting lessons for her: Some (many?) teachers will require their students to use an actual piano.
I have a Roland keyboard. I like it. Works fine.
We have a Korg B1SP, which is a weighted key electronic piano. If I recall, it was about $650ish new from the local music shop. To a novice, it sounds like a real piano and the keys feel good to me (and apparently good enough for my wife & 3 kids to not complain). I dunno, but it seems to be holding up well :)
Much like autocross to track, apparently it's an easier transition from piano to keyboard (due to the weight and lack-thereof of the keys) than the other way around, a few piano teachers we talked to suggested learning on a real piano or weighted key electric one instead of "just" a keyboard, as you'll learn all sorts of bad habits about finger action if there's no resistance.
stroker said:John Welsh said:How about teaching the kid on the out of tune, existing piano?
Its like a car with a slight misfire. No reason you couldn't learn to drive in a car with a misfire
Well, that's possible except I'd like her to be able to take the keyboard to her room and listen with headphones instead of her learning experience being heard by the whole house... I'm not so much interested in her being able to transition to an actual piano as trying to foster her desire to learn to play a musical instrument of some kind.
I can ask around, but I don't know of any portable keyboard that will come close. In order to get fully weighted keys it needs space and weight. My Clavinova probably weighs 125 lbs. Korg does a B-series of weighted-key boards that is technically portable... as in a wheeled case. Still weighs 75-80 lbs but it's at least gig-portable.
Some companies offer semi-weighted keys as a function of friction and a little flywheel, but they are a very poor simulation of actual key feel.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:I can ask around, but I don't know of any portable keyboard that will come close. In order to get fully weighted keys it needs space and weight. My Clavinova probably weighs 125 lbs. Korg does a B-series of weighted-key boards that is technically portable... as in a wheeled case. Still weighs 75-80 lbs but it's at least gig-portable.
Some companies offer semi-weighted keys as a function of friction and a little flywheel, but they are a very poor simulation of actual key feel.
I'd guess my Korg entry level model (B1 mentioned above) is probably about 35-45lbs, but it is unweildy because it's a full sized 88 key board, and the stand isn't an easy-on/off thing, it's bolted into place.
WonkoTheSane said:Much like autocross to track, apparently it's an easier transition from piano to keyboard (due to the weight and lack-thereof of the keys) than the other way around, a few piano teachers we talked to suggested learning on a real piano or weighted key electric one instead of "just" a keyboard, as you'll learn all sorts of bad habits about finger action if there's no resistance.
But just like autocross to track, it's possible :) I originally learned on an organ and a piano teaching friend was always quite happy with my finger action. It didn't really hold me back much when it came time to move to a real piano, it seems. Playing something, anything is better than not playing at all.
stroker said:John Welsh said:How about teaching the kid on the out of tune, existing piano?
Its like a car with a slight misfire. No reason you couldn't learn to drive in a car with a misfire
Well, that's possible except I'd like her to be able to take the keyboard to her room and listen with headphones instead of her learning experience being heard by the whole house... I'm not so much interested in her being able to transition to an actual piano as trying to foster her desire to learn to play a musical instrument of some kind.
I know I'm going to sound like a purist.
This is a fine plan of action... just know that it may handicap her ability to play piano if she decides to continue with that instrument. A keyboard is as different an instrument from a Piano as a Trumpet is from a Trombone.
As a musician myself, if she wants to learn piano, get her a piano (or tune the one you have if it's serviceable). I get that you don't want to always hear her playing, but you have one. It's right there. To your original assessment of cost to tune vs cost of a keyboard, I disagree. Any keyboard that will actually give her a piano experience is going to cost way more than a tuner.
So, a cheapy keyboard is a fine investment to see if she likes playing keys. My only warning is that it won't help her play piano, if that makes sense. Like my earlier metaphor... learning to race in a 1982 Camaro Berlinetta 4 cylinder will teach you nothing about racing new Camaros but it can make you a better driver. In the same way, getting her a keyboard might make her a better musician, but it won't teach her much about piano.
Keith Tanner said:WonkoTheSane said:Much like autocross to track, apparently it's an easier transition from piano to keyboard (due to the weight and lack-thereof of the keys) than the other way around, a few piano teachers we talked to suggested learning on a real piano or weighted key electric one instead of "just" a keyboard, as you'll learn all sorts of bad habits about finger action if there's no resistance.
But just like autocross to track, it's possible :) I originally learned on an organ and a piano teaching friend was always quite happy with my finger action. It didn't really hold me back much when it came time to move to a real piano, it seems. Playing something, anything is better than not playing at all.
Aye.. That's where ya gotta plan/gamble on exactly how much use it's going to get..
Yamaha makes some great electric pianos. I wouldn't teach her on the out of tune piano because you want her to actually like the noises she's making and an out of tune piano is not the path to that.
I've played some of Guitar Center's cheaper lines, Williams? I think, and didn't feel the urge to vomit while playing. The Yamahas were better but I thought they were serviceable.
Not only will an electric allow silent playing but she'll also get to have other sounds like organ than she may like. I'd stick with an 88 key too
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:stroker said:John Welsh said:How about teaching the kid on the out of tune, existing piano?
Its like a car with a slight misfire. No reason you couldn't learn to drive in a car with a misfire
Well, that's possible except I'd like her to be able to take the keyboard to her room and listen with headphones instead of her learning experience being heard by the whole house... I'm not so much interested in her being able to transition to an actual piano as trying to foster her desire to learn to play a musical instrument of some kind.
I know I'm going to sound like a purist.
This is a fine plan of action... just know that it may handicap her ability to play piano if she decides to continue with that instrument. A keyboard is as different an instrument from a Piano as a Trumpet is from a Trombone.
As a musician myself, if she wants to learn piano, get her a piano (or tune the one you have if it's serviceable). I get that you don't want to always hear her playing, but you have one. It's right there. To your original assessment of cost to tune vs cost of a keyboard, I disagree. Any keyboard that will actually give her a piano experience is going to cost way more than a tuner.
So, a cheapy keyboard is a fine investment to see if she likes playing keys. My only warning is that it won't help her play piano, if that makes sense. Like my earlier metaphor... learning to race in a 1982 Camaro Berlinetta 4 cylinder will teach you nothing about racing new Camaros but it can make you a better driver. In the same way, getting her a keyboard might make her a better musician, but it won't teach her much about piano.
I think you're taking it a little too far there. A keyboard will teach her a lot about the keys, and that is probably 90% of playing the piano. I'd say it is probably closer to an inline hockey player switching to ice. There will be an adjustment period, but it won't be that long, compared to a lifetime of enjoyment. The end result is going to be pretty damn close.
Get a decent keyboard with weighted keys- Yamaha or Korg or whatever is the best your budget allows - and don't think too far into it.
I missed the portable bit in my first post.
At that point any Casio or whatever "toy" keyboard might be best. If she really likes it you can upgrade. It'll be like.....$20
I was once talking to a woman who was a piano teacher and a very high level pianist herself (like national symphony orchestra of an eastern European country or something). I told her that I had an electronic keyboard laying on the ground at my house so my 2 and 3 year old (at the time) could plug away on it if they wanted. She was aghast - "the piano is NOT a toy, you cannot let them use it like one".
Well, now they are 5 and 6 and they still treat it like a toy, but at least now I have the treble clef and the bass clef drawn on the respective keys (two different colors of masking tape) so my 5 year old can decode music when she likes.
There's a difference in attitude between someone who has devoted their life to mastery of an instrument and someone who plays music as a hobby. At a young age, it's okay for an instrument to be something fun instead of just work. My little nephew is learning piano (on the out of tune piano his non-musical parents picked up for free because grandma had a piano) and I like to let him play with my synths because of the crazy noises. It opens his eyes to other things beside practicing the songs his teacher has put down for him. He's a big fan of my "robot drummer" too.
Also, you can do terrible things to a cheap keyboard that you don't do to an expensive and finicky piano.
Curtis73 said:
As a musician myself, if she wants to learn piano, get her a piano (or tune the one you have if it's serviceable). I get that you don't want to always hear her playing, but you have one. It's right there. To your original assessment of cost to tune vs cost of a keyboard, I disagree. Any keyboard that will actually give her a piano experience is going to cost way more than a tuner.
I'm with Curtis on this.
Being a former musician and raising daughters that play multiple instruments too, IMO get that piano you have tuned and find her a portable keyboard to keep in her room. One that has the most keys you can find/afford. 88 would be optimum but not always feasible so 72 at least. That way she can play most music she wants. Don't need one that makes a lot of different sounds, that is just toys for now. Having a tuned piano to practice on plus the ability to lock herself in her room with headphones may mean she'll play/practice more. Last time I had my piano tuned it wasn't that expensive, less than $100.
In reply to wlkelley3 :
The guy who tunes ours at the theater does it for $50
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
+1
If I remember right, the guy that does our charges $80 or $85. I forget. Been a while since ours was tuned. He's legally blind and the only tuner in the area so he's got the market wrapped up. Limits his repair ability though he can tune. SWMBO is currently the only one that pounds on it and she's tone deaf trying to learn Piano. She always wonders how I know she hit the wrong key. She's now only at the piano when I'm not home, has a keyboard with volume control in her she-cave room that she uses more. Both daughters that played are older now with their own families and their own homes. I really should sit down at the keys more than I do, very rusty.
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