914Driver said:Once the water gets up to the windows, pressure is equal and the door will open as normal.
Top Gear tested that. Pressure doesn't equalize until the car has stopped descending, best bet is to get out as fast as possible when the car hits the water.
I haven't seen anybody but Tesla marketing their laminated side windows as preventing break ins. So I wonder if the laminated side windows are purely about reduced cabin noise, or if it also improves the roof crush strength. If the latter, the manufacturers will certainly prioritize something the safety orgs test for over something they don't. I could even see it being an enabling technology for the glass roofs that people love so much.
How long before the NHTSA mandates easy-open escape hatches on all US-market automobiles? Would it be a bad idea?
Edit: I mean, we've already got glow-in-the-dark pull releases in the trunk.
How big of a problem is this really?
Does it happen all the time but we only heard about it because it was a billionaire relative of a politician? Or is this something that only happens a couple times a year/every few years?
RevRico said:How big of a problem is this really?
Does it happen all the time but we only heard about it because it was a billionaire relative of a politician? Or is this something that only happens a couple times a year/every few years?
Nothing but anecdotal evidence to offer, but stories of cars ending up in canals are fairly common here in Florida.
RevRico said:How big of a problem is this really?
Does it happen all the time but we only heard about it because it was a billionaire relative of a politician? Or is this something that only happens a couple times a year/every few years?
It's like a fire extinguisher. I hope to never ever need it. If I find myself driving over a long bridge (happens a lot, we drive to the outer banks at least once a year and they are everywhere) and get tossed into the sound by some freak thing, I want my kids to be able to have a chance.
In reply to tuna55 :
Fair enough. I fully understand "rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it".
And I'd be lying if I said I didn't have worries similar when I lived on the west Coast and took the 837 bridge from 80-101. Even with a convertible, being stuck in traffic on a high, steep bridge gives you all kinds of scary thoughts.
This just happened Saturday night. We have lived here just shy of 4 years, and it's the fourth vehicle to land in the creek. Everybody was ok, especially because the water was low, but the creek does flood pretty good a few times a year.
Until the bridge strike and the Tesla incident, I didn't recall hearing about stuff like this aside from a few old cars found in golf lakes or canals, so I wasn't sure if people were just trying to be over prepared or if I was missing something by not watching the news .
Here's the issue with the thought process of being able to find her escape anything after such an incident. Even if the bridge was only 20 feet above water...
Try finding and locating whatever fail safe device you're looking for. It's like trying to find a phone that was sitting in a cup holder plugged into a charger after a 30 or 40 mph collision. It's no longer in the cup holder. Unless you are wearing something with pockets that snap secured and it's afixed to you, you're not going to be able to locate it. You could put it in the glove box, but there's a large possibility that the glove box integrity will be compromised from the impact.
This confuses me a bit. The article listed earlier about the Tesla incident doesn't say anything about being unable to break the glass. It says rescue workers DID break the glass (and that the woman's blood alcohol level was 3X the legal limit).
Was this actually a problem with rescue workers being unable to break the glass?
As far as I know, laminated glass can be broken. Once it's broken it's a bit hard to kick out, but not impossible. (Modern glues or structural glass might effect this)
This sounds like a media outlet presenting things a little inaccurately. (They don't ever do that, do they?)
This just came out this morning about the topic, condensed here for cliff's notes https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/tips/car-underwater-escape-bridge-collapse/
How to escape if your car goes underwater
Exiting the car in the first minute it begins to sink improves your chance of survival
By Andrea Sachs and Gabe Hiatt
One minute to get out
Thermal physiologist Gordon Giesbrecht, a retired University of Manitoba professor with an expertise in vehicle submersion and hypothermia, said passengers have one minute to rescue themselves from a sinking car. Once the vehicle becomes even partially submerged, the odds of survival are slim. “A minute is kind of an average number,” Giesbrecht said. “So the windows will certainly work for 60 seconds, but if you know what you’re doing, you can open that window in 10 or 15 seconds.” He said travelers should memorize the acronym SWOC:
“A lot of people think you should open the doors, which you shouldn’t,” Giesbrecht said. “The car is just going deeper and deeper, and once the water gets up against the window, then you won’t even be able to open the window. So you’ve got to get that window open as soon as you can.” Giesbrecht said electric windows should still operate within a minute “because your ignition was on.”
When helping children, push the oldest out first so you can help the youngest passengers. Giesbrecht said it is easier to push than pull passengers out, so remain in the car until your dependents have safely evacuated.
Cars in deep water typically sink nose first, so you can buy a few more seconds by exiting out a back window. If there’s a release button in the front seat for a rear hatch, then you can escape through the back, but don’t waste time trying to locate it.
Once the car begins to sink nose down, the passengers will start to run out of air. Any air bubbles will escape out the back. In shallower water, a car might descend horizontally, so passengers could sustain themselves on a trapped air pocket, but Giesbrecht said this scenario is “very rare.”
Tools don’t work on laminated glass
According to Giesbrecht, smashing a car window is not feasible. Cars that have laminated windows instead of tempered glass are resistant to hard force; not one of the six tools tested in a AAA study were able to break through. A label on the bottom corner of a side window will identify tempered or laminated glass, but that helps only if you have it memorized. Giesbrecht said that, when you have only a minute to save yourself, it’s not worth the time to search for an instrument.
“Very few people could ever break a window in the first place,” he said. “Once the physics of the water changes, you can’t break the window anyway, even if you had a hammer.”
Once you’re in the water, Giesbrecht said, you need to control your breath, assess your surroundings and climb onto or cling to the vehicle while it is afloat.
“You can hang on to the vehicle as long as you can,” he said, “or until you determine the closest or easiest place you can get to.”
Hypothermia is not an immediate problem, Giesbrecht said, because it takes an hour for someone to become cold enough for the heart to stop. However, drowning is a real concern, especially if you panic or go into shock after plunging into the water.
“The first thing that will happen when you’re in cold water is a cold shock response, which is gasping and hyperventilating or heavy breathing,” he said. The cold could incapacitate your muscles and nerves, and you could lose your ability to swim.
“We have the 1-10-1 principle,” Giesbrecht added. “You have one minute to get your breathing under control. Ten minutes of meaningful movement. And about an hour before you become unconscious due to hypothermia.”
Make yourself visible
Andy Blair, director of the National Outdoor Leadership School Teton Valley, offered several survival tips for after you have escaped the car and are in the water. He said to keep your shoes on. They can be helpful when swimming in open water and scrambling on rocks or other sharp terrain.
“If they’re really big, heavy boots, they might be more of an impediment,” he said, “but once you get to shore, you’re going to want to have some shoes on.”
Blair said wearing street clothes in cold water that is moving downstream and not having a flotation device is “probably one of your worst-case situations.” However, he recommends securing any loose garments that could snag in the water. He said more form-fitting clothes will reduce your surface area and your exposure to the water.
If swimming to shore is not an option because of the distance or your stamina level, grab a piece of buoyant debris or hoist yourself up on a larger object if you can. Also, hold up an eye-catching item that could attract the attention of a search-and-rescue crew or a bystander.
“For the average person in that situation, their best bet is to find something they can stay afloat with and make themselves as visible as possible,” he said.
In reply to johndej :
Interesting
1988RedT2 said:How long before the NHTSA mandates easy-open escape hatches on all US-market automobiles? Would it be a bad idea?
or perhaps a system that opens all the windows and sunroof in a crash?
In reply to SV reX :
It was mentioned in several articles including WSJ about breaking the glass, best I can find not paywall right now: https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/report-angela-chao-may-have-died-after-accidentally-putting-her-tesla-reverse/OWWRV3YA6JHAXMHWU6HICOLCT4/
“The two deputies who were in the water standing on the submerged vehicle requested tools to break the window of the vehicle to perform a possible rescue. One EMS crew member donned water rescue PPE and entered the water with a Hallagan tool. One Firefighter entered the water wearing proper water PPE relaying tools to attempt rescue, several tools were used to attempt access to the victim”
Hallagan tool is a 2-3 foot long 15-20 lb beater/pry bar
In reply to johndej :
I'm not sure that's the right tool. It's pretty hard to swing a 3' long piece of steel under water.
In reply to johndej :
That article says they tried for several hours, and that it is still being investigated as a criminal matter.
Her death may have very little to do with the glass...
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:Try finding and locating whatever fail safe device you're looking for.
If your key was in the ignition or the fob in your pocket, it is usually still there after a crash. Resqme is little more than a key chain mounted punch. To detach it, just grab and pull.
Many hammers come with a bracket, some better than others, that is intended to be mounted to the interior of the car. It wouldn't be difficult to figure out securing a Resqme to the interior either.
There is no perfect solution that will work in every situation, but some are more likely to work in more situations than others.
johndej said:This just came out this morning about the topic, condensed here for cliff's notes https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/tips/car-underwater-escape-bridge-collapse/
How to escape if your car goes underwater
Exiting the car in the first minute it begins to sink improves your chance of survival
By Andrea Sachs and Gabe Hiatt
One minute to get out
Thermal physiologist Gordon Giesbrecht, a retired University of Manitoba professor with an expertise in vehicle submersion and hypothermia, said passengers have one minute to rescue themselves from a sinking car. Once the vehicle becomes even partially submerged, the odds of survival are slim. “A minute is kind of an average number,” Giesbrecht said. “So the windows will certainly work for 60 seconds, but if you know what you’re doing, you can open that window in 10 or 15 seconds.” He said travelers should memorize the acronym SWOC:
- Seat belts off.
- Windows open.
- Out immediately.
- Children first.
“A lot of people think you should open the doors, which you shouldn’t,” Giesbrecht said. “The car is just going deeper and deeper, and once the water gets up against the window, then you won’t even be able to open the window. So you’ve got to get that window open as soon as you can.” Giesbrecht said electric windows should still operate within a minute “because your ignition was on.”
When helping children, push the oldest out first so you can help the youngest passengers. Giesbrecht said it is easier to push than pull passengers out, so remain in the car until your dependents have safely evacuated.
Cars in deep water typically sink nose first, so you can buy a few more seconds by exiting out a back window. If there’s a release button in the front seat for a rear hatch, then you can escape through the back, but don’t waste time trying to locate it.
Once the car begins to sink nose down, the passengers will start to run out of air. Any air bubbles will escape out the back. In shallower water, a car might descend horizontally, so passengers could sustain themselves on a trapped air pocket, but Giesbrecht said this scenario is “very rare.”
Tools don’t work on laminated glass
According to Giesbrecht, smashing a car window is not feasible. Cars that have laminated windows instead of tempered glass are resistant to hard force; not one of the six tools tested in a AAA study were able to break through. A label on the bottom corner of a side window will identify tempered or laminated glass, but that helps only if you have it memorized. Giesbrecht said that, when you have only a minute to save yourself, it’s not worth the time to search for an instrument.
“Very few people could ever break a window in the first place,” he said. “Once the physics of the water changes, you can’t break the window anyway, even if you had a hammer.”
Once you’re in the water, Giesbrecht said, you need to control your breath, assess your surroundings and climb onto or cling to the vehicle while it is afloat.
“You can hang on to the vehicle as long as you can,” he said, “or until you determine the closest or easiest place you can get to.”
Hypothermia is not an immediate problem, Giesbrecht said, because it takes an hour for someone to become cold enough for the heart to stop. However, drowning is a real concern, especially if you panic or go into shock after plunging into the water.
“The first thing that will happen when you’re in cold water is a cold shock response, which is gasping and hyperventilating or heavy breathing,” he said. The cold could incapacitate your muscles and nerves, and you could lose your ability to swim.
“We have the 1-10-1 principle,” Giesbrecht added. “You have one minute to get your breathing under control. Ten minutes of meaningful movement. And about an hour before you become unconscious due to hypothermia.”
Make yourself visible
Andy Blair, director of the National Outdoor Leadership School Teton Valley, offered several survival tips for after you have escaped the car and are in the water. He said to keep your shoes on. They can be helpful when swimming in open water and scrambling on rocks or other sharp terrain.
“If they’re really big, heavy boots, they might be more of an impediment,” he said, “but once you get to shore, you’re going to want to have some shoes on.”
Blair said wearing street clothes in cold water that is moving downstream and not having a flotation device is “probably one of your worst-case situations.” However, he recommends securing any loose garments that could snag in the water. He said more form-fitting clothes will reduce your surface area and your exposure to the water.
If swimming to shore is not an option because of the distance or your stamina level, grab a piece of buoyant debris or hoist yourself up on a larger object if you can. Also, hold up an eye-catching item that could attract the attention of a search-and-rescue crew or a bystander.
“For the average person in that situation, their best bet is to find something they can stay afloat with and make themselves as visible as possible,” he said.
That is great. Thanks for sharing!
In reply to Driven5 :
With more and more vehicles having proximity keys and push button starts, especially those that also have laminated glass based upon age, it's not as simple as the keys being in the ignition cylinder as it used to be.
In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
No it's not going to help if you toss your keys in the cup holder, or a purse. But that's why I mentioned fob in your pocket and mounting it to the interior of the car. Sure it's still not going to be accessible in time in every situation, but seems (to me) to offer the best chance of success.
I also see keeping these handy as much about being able to aid in extracting a person from a wreck, or baby/dog from a hot car, as I do about getting out of a sinking car.
I'm glad Tuna posted that list. Until this thread I didn't know any side/rear windows were laminated. Now knowing that very few have ALL glass laminated, few have rear glass laminated, some have rear side glass laminated, numerous have front side glass laminated, and knowing which my cars are, helps to be better prepared. The F150 being our only one listed, for laminated fronts only, and sure enough the corner of the glass says 'acoustic laminated'.
Driven5 said:In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
No it's not going to help if you toss your keys in the cup holder, or a purse. But that's why I mentioned fob in your pocket and mounting it to the interior of the car. Sure it's still not going to be accessible in time in every situation, but seems (to me) to offer the best chance of success.
I also see keeping these handy as much about being able to aid in extracting a person from a wreck, or baby/dog from a hot car, as I do about getting out of a sinking car.
I'm glad Tuna posted that list. Until this thread I didn't know any side/rear windows were laminated. Now knowing that very few have ALL glass laminated, few have rear glass laminated, some have rear side glass laminated, numerous have front side glass laminated, and knowing which my cars are, helps to be better prepared. The F150 being our only one listed, for laminated fronts only, and sure enough the corner of the glass says 'acoustic laminated'.
I got mine after barely being able to get someone out of a wreck, so it wasn't intended to save me. I just assumed, as you did, that it would also work for this other, very rare, use case. I have it in the glovebox of both cars. After reading that list, it would be awfully silly to use it on a laminated glass. The van is actually a very bad case for a water escape now that I think of it. The middle row and front windows roll down, but the rear windows don't do anything. In the predecessor vehicle, the Caravan, the rearmost windows popped out with a button. One could definitely kick those out from inside. I think a rear seat passenger, definitely a child, is going to have a difficult time making it over the middle seats or through the aisle and out the middle windows quickly after a big impact. Maybe it would be wise to pop the hatch if I had time, given that the van would be nose first most likely.
I know it's a rare failure mode, but it would help to know how to handle it.
Glad the list helped you. it startled me as well. I had absolutely no idea that laminated glass was used anywhere other than windshields.
1988RedT2 said:How long before the NHTSA mandates easy-open escape hatches on all US-market automobiles? Would it be a bad idea?
Government agency crossover: have all the escape hatches standardized to use a TSA key, those locks are totally secure.
Semi-useful thought: for ~$500 you can buy an emergency mini-SCUBA tank (Helicopter Emergency Egress Device). For ~$100 you can buy a knock-off from Amazon/ ebay. Do NOT get it confused with your fire extinguisher, both are similar size/shape.
Less useful thought: carry a Ramset as a glass breaker ('powder actuated' nail gun, the kind that uses .22 blanks)
Not useful thought: carry linear shaped charge as a glass breaker
The additional rub here is that Tesla like other EV manufacturers uses laminated glass double the thickness of a standard ICE vehicle. They do this to control road and wind NVH into the cabin. Side effect is pretty darn resiliant glass.
Considering a hammer or other device to break a window comes with the presupposition that the car is gonna get flooded, and you WILL be underwater.
Teach your children to roll down the windows as quickly as possible.
The only reason not to is because of the perspective that somehow staying in the car longer will increase your chance of survival. This is false.
Roll down the windows as soon as the car hits the water, and get out as quickly as you can.
Regarding finding your tool, I had a previous-gen resqme on my keychain when my Samurai was wrecked, it was hanging low with some other keys, I think my knee crushed it into the dash during the crash and broke it off the keychain, so it ended up in the driver's footwell. If it were positioned differently at all or even if there was more legroom it probably wouldn't have been a problem, there was no other damage to anything on my keychain.
I have seen several instances where people had to break a window with a hammer and, without fail, it took several attempts with each one getting increasingly aggressive.
I would bet that trying to do that inside the car or, as a rescuer, with the car under water, it would be highly unlikely that it would work.
A spring-loaded breaker or center punch is what we all use and what I've seen rescue teams use but make sure you have a glove on if possible as your hand will probably go through the glass and it will cut you - even tempered.
For a rescuer, I'd imagine a glove would be good to pull apart a broken laminated window. But I've never had to do that, so who knows...
I still don't follow when these articles, including the one that Johndej quoted, say that laminated glass cannot be broken.
I also can't imagine that glass can't be broken with a good spring-loaded breaker under water....
but regardless, having a plan and tools in advance > trying to wing it in a sinking car.
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