European Employers vs US Employers

Some recent topics on Reddit and our own topic here about Amazon have me wondering - are American employers too obsessed with corporate profits and overall efficiency? 

It seems like as a whole, European employers generally have happier workers at the expense of overall profits and productivity. 

Is the "American Way" of doing business not just doing American workers a disservice, but are we risking infecting the rest of the world with a bad benchmark of growth predictions and corporate profits? 

Those of you who has worked for both European or Non-US based companies, did you see a big difference in bsuiness practises and employer/employee relations vs USA owned companies? 

I firmly believe that those who are infatuated with life in Europe should do themselves a favor and move to Europe.

I firmly believe that people that want things to stay bad should do us a favor and get out of the way.

Don't worry it can't go a whole lot farther before it all caves in on itself.

Didn't Amazon just raise their minimum?

bentwrench said:

Don't worry it can't go a whole lot farther before it all caves in on itself.

 

Didn't Amazon just raise their minimum?

The people in charge should read up on The Romanovs and Louis XVI

In my observations - based on a lifetime of being surrounded by family doing business between the US and Europe - American management finds dealing with European companies often frustrating, most often due to government involvement in management slowing decision-making and long summer vacations that make it impossible to get things done for a month (or more). European management often struggles to understand American impatience. On the labor side, ambitious Europeans envy the opportunities afforded by the dynamic American economy, while American workers who prefer a comfortable and secure work environment envy Europe's longer vacations and greater leverage of organized labor.

Oh, and for giggles, once upon a time I worked for a Euro-borne aircraft manufacturer that had a plant in the USA.  I worked in an office that had maybe 1/3rd staffing from Europe.  They got very different compensation packages than the gringos like myself.  Like five or six weeks of vacation for them, two for me.  Working the same job in the same office.  Wasn't impressed with that.  Didn't work there long but it wasn't over vacation.

Having experienced both, I don't necessarily think that most European companies voluntarily have happier workers and less profits. Every company would be much happier if all they had was Chinese working conditions and salaries, but still be able to sell stuff at high prices (not that that would work).

The big difference is that the minimum working conditions are dictated by laws that tend to be more pro-worker than what you get in the US, and also stronger unions in a lot of business areas. Both are being eroded but not at the same rate as it happened in the US (and to a large extent in the UK).

The German model is somewhat different again as larger companies tend to have some worker's representatives on their boards, which is customary and IIRC also required by law (might be wrong about the latter). VW Germany has those, VW US doesn't. Go figure.

Either way it looks like in a lot of places the relationship between larger employers and their workers are getting worse, leading to more strikes and the like, even amongst the highly paid staff - look at the various pilot strikes with European airlines recently.

I specifically mentioned large employers - usually smaller ones on both sides of the Atlantic have a different relationship with their employees anyway.

In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

If they were there on internal transfers, they'd likely keep their European benefits. That's pretty normal for expats. The part they didn't talk about is that they likely also saw a lot less from their paycheck than you did, because they probably had to keep paying into the various social programs back home to stay eligible.

In reply to 02Pilot :

It would be nice if some middle ground could be found.

1988RedT2 said:

I firmly believe that those who are infatuated with life in Europe should do themselves a favor and move to Europe.

What a great way to foster interesting and informative discussion!

* gets popcorn *

dculberson said:

1988RedT2 said:

I firmly believe that those who are infatuated with life in Europe should do themselves a favor and move to Europe.

What a great way to foster interesting and informative discussion!

Yup.  Over a dozen posts already!  Yer welcome! 

It'd be interesting to see the average length of employment with a given employer by age bracket in the US vs Europe. I'd bet that younger Americans tend to job hop a lot more than Europeans, but I could be wrong. 

In reply to pheller :

Certainly used to be the case (job hopping was really frowned upon) but I think that has changed as well.

02Pilot said:

On the labor side, ambitious Europeans envy the opportunities afforded by the dynamic American economy,

20 years ago and probably even 10, I would have 100% agreed with you. I think at this point in time, working for a small company is very similar in Europe and the US (with the usual differences like vacation days etc), and big companies gotta big company, so they're also very similar when it comes to handling ambition by offering new opportunities. There's also pretty much no management fad that hasn't crossed oceans.

The big difference I used to see was for entrepreneurs. Even these days it's much easier to get VC funding if you're in certain hotspots in the US, but Europe is slowly catching up on that. It used to be a lot easier to start something in the US than in Europe, but that has also changed - the US has caught up to Euro-style paperwork, and for really small businesses, it's become easier in Europe. Right now I would say that starting a new company in somewhere like Kansas or WV is about the same amount of effort (including funding) than starting one in Europe. Only when you move to places like the Bay Area does it become easier in the US because there is more of an ecosystem.

One thing to think about, here in the US, there's a lot of "live to work" as our work "ethic" is what drives this country.  Were you can say that Europeans "work to live".

My company certainly has a lot of issues with our European branch, but when you look closely at what they "bring"- it has nothing to do with actual labor, vacations, and how much you enjoy work.  It's just odd decisions that make no sense.

I work with a lot of people who struggle to use their vacation time, and that confuses me to no end.  Not only do I now get 5 weeks of vacation, I buy two more- and add that to the about 1.5 weeks we get thanks to the UAW.  But that keeps me happy and refreshed, so the work I do when I'm here is very intense and focused on solving a problem.   Even with so much time away, I've never had a problem getting stuff done.

But when you really consider the constant banging of people to work harder and be more efficient- who does that really benefit?  I'm not getting any more pay for the increased work, if I come to work an hour early and stay an hour late- my salary is fixed.  What is the real source of the constant barrage of "work ethic"?

On that note, one should probably look at the pay difference between BOD and the super upper management (if you have Chief of your title) compared to the people doing the actual work- up to say first level managers over supervisors.  Without looking at a google search, I'm 99.99% sure that the difference of that vs. the EU is pretty stark.  And it's not as if the EU does not have a lot of very wealthy people....

In reply to BoxheadTim :

I suspect there's considerable variance in Europe country-to-country as there is state-to-state here in the US regarding the ease of establishing a business.

The Ease of Doing Business Index, while painting with a broad brush, at least provides a starting point for analysis. I need to find something similar for the states.

EDIT: This is the first thing I found.

In reply to BoxheadTim :

My experience is extremely dated but I found the so called vaunted Japanese worker very similar to American worker.  
I oversaw some Japanese ship workers, do various repair projects on the carrier in both Japan and the US.  Wages were slightly lower ( at the time ) in Japan but still a premium compared to American wages for similar tasks.  
 

In Japan everyone speaks English and apologizes  for their less than perfect English.  But somehow when you asked for a task to to done it took a long time to translate what was to be done and by whom.
 

As a result tasks budgeted for 3 hours often took more than a day to accomplish.  Apparently  there is a real hierarchy in seniority  and station.  
 

Not so in America. And the translation time is not there either.  I told you so, seems to suffice by union management. 

1988RedT2 said:

I firmly believe that those who are infatuated with life in Europe should do themselves a favor and move to Europe.

I'd love to, but I can't afford to move because my American job doesn't pay enough for me to save up for it. Also it's hard to find work overseas and it's hard to move overseas without a job.

One other thing to consider- how profitable and affordable it is to build *stuff*.

For the most part, EU cars and US cars are really close, although the US brands seem to lead in the "cut cost to increase profits" thing.  The recent GM strike pointed out how labor is such a small part of making the car, these days (5% according to news reports).

And some things are still cheaper to be made in the EU than here- so many ships are made in the EU, it's kind of odd.  Especially high end cruise ships.  Not anywhere in Asia where labor is cheap, and not in the US where there should be skill.  Finland, France, and Italy all make lots of ships.  I've never understood why high end ships that require huge labor are cheaper and better to make in the EU than the US.  But it's a long, long standing fact.

There are other industries that are similar- where the US should easily be more competitive.  But we are not.

So it's not as if our "work ethic" make better, stronger, cheaper, nicer stuff than the EU.

While I'm very much in favor of American employers mimicing European Employer/Employee standards, I certainly understand that if you want to strike it out on your own, there are a lot of advantages to doing so in the US.

That being said, I understand its easier to be a independent contractor in Canada, for example, where health care is more of a constant than in the USA where rates may vary. 

....but it seems like European workers, as in, the vast majority of population, has it better than the laborers in the USA. 

bentwrench said:

Don't worry it can't go a whole lot farther before it all caves in on itself.

 

Didn't Amazon just raise their minimum?

They are advertising $17 an hour, no experience or resume needed, on hourly radio commercials here in Cleveland.   (McDonald's is $15)

The no experience or resume needed suggests to me that they are burning through employees at such a high rate that they can't afford to be picky.

I think here in Canada we have some US influences and some European influences.

There was a guy on the forum who,  last year (?), was laid off from a long term job. He was in his 60's and someone asked if he got any severance. Here the question would be not if, but how much severance did you get? I think he got 4 weeks. Here he would likely get about 2 years. As far as vacation, we don't get much, like the US. 2 weeks is the minimum, and it takes a long time to get over 4, but even low level jobs usually provide good medical/dental/etc. benefits

In reply to Knurled. :

Same ads here

In reply to alfadriver :

And it surprises how much specialty pharma manufacturing equipment comes from Europe.