European Employers vs US Employers

alfadriver said:

One other thing to consider- how profitable and affordable it is to build *stuff*.

For the most part, EU cars and US cars are really close, although the US brands seem to lead in the "cut cost to increase profits" thing.  The recent GM strike pointed out how labor is such a small part of making the car, these days (5% according to news reports).

And some things are still cheaper to be made in the EU than here- so many ships are made in the EU, it's kind of odd.  Especially high end cruise ships.  Not anywhere in Asia where labor is cheap, and not in the US where there should be skill.  Finland, France, and Italy all make lots of ships.  I've never understood why high end ships that require huge labor are cheaper and better to make in the EU than the US.  But it's a long, long standing fact.

There are other industries that are similar- where the US should easily be more competitive.  But we are not.

So it's not as if our "work ethic" make better, stronger, cheaper, nicer stuff than the EU.

What shocks me is virtually all of our wood working industry is gone.  Furniture is all made elsewhere. We have more mature hardwood forests with bigger trees but wood gets shipped out and comes back as furniture etc.  

I feel I'm very lucky to be in the auto industry.  With the strength of the UAW in the old days, the compensation, benefits, vacation etc. that they negotiated for their workers filtered up to the Engineering staff.  I have friends and relatives in other similar industries (aerospace, defense etc.) and we seem to get treated a lot better, in a more 'European' way than they do.  I've been here half my life now and am fully assimilated into the way of life here.  But if I'd have come over and found my industry had a maximum of two weeks vacation ever (as some people I know have) then I would never have stayed.  

02Pilot said:

In my observations - based on a lifetime of being surrounded by family doing business between the US and Europe - American management finds dealing with European companies often frustrating, most often due to government involvement in management slowing decision-making and long summer vacations that make it impossible to get things done for a month (or more)...

 

The company I work for put in a request for approval of a change back in May from a large French aircraft company (bet you can't guess which one), and it still hasn't been approved.

Suprf1y said:

I think here in Canada we have some US influences and some European influences.

There was a guy on the forum who,  last year (?), was laid off from a long term job. He was in his 60's and someone asked if he got any severance. Here the question would be not if, but how much severance did you get? I think he got 4 weeks. Here he would likely get about 2 years. As far as vacation, we don't get much, like the US. 2 weeks is the minimum, and it takes a long time to get over 4, but even low level jobs usually provide good medical/dental/etc. benefits

In reply to Knurled. :

Same ads here

My dad got about 1 year severance when his position was eliminated - it wasn't a layoff and he wasn't fired, but his company (which was spun off from a different company) was bought out by a bigger company, and the position disappeared after 2 years. Even though three people tried to hire him, because he never actually applied, it worked out as a layoff and after 28 years since he was at the original company, he got about 2 weeks of severance for every year of service. These were all US companies.

I got 1 month severance after only working at a company for 6 months; this was a company from Australia/New Zealand though, which may have had something to do with that - either that or they thought they may have lost a lawsuit for wrongful termination (in Illinois, they would have won).

Ian F said:

In reply to 02Pilot :

It would be nice if some middle ground could be found.

Employee-owned companies can offer that. 

Which side do Canadians fall under?

I dunno, I'm curious. 

I'd probably guess that there are more French owned Canadian companies than in the US because of the shared language, but maybe not. 

Canada is a good example of how the economy might be if we had a single-payer health care system. IE, pretty good. Does the fact that people don't need a job to get decent healthcare put more power into the hands of employees, though? 

Sine_Qua_Non said:

Which side do Canadians fall under?

Somewhere in the middle?

I'll admit that I don't know much about it but I've thought in the past that we're lucky being a commonwealth country with a lot of Euro influence living next to a more capitalist economy and it's influences (cheap stuff)

Amazon now paying $20 for warehouse workers in Hillsboro OR

In reply to bentwrench :

Bet that will change after Christmas. 

My middle son just started a job. 21 days PTO to start. I was surprised. Good for him.

Here's my take on employee relations. It's not the Euro model, but not the standard US model either. Call it the Toyman model.

My employees start with one week of vacation and get two after 2 years. They also get a weeks sick leave that they can use for whatever they want. I think most of them get used for long weekends instead of "doctors appointment" but I don't ask. Vacation I will buy back if they don't use it sick time I do not. They also get any holiday I don't want to work off, plus a bunch of extra days. We took 2 days for the 4th, we will take 2 days for Thanksgiving, 3 days for Christmas and 2 for New Years plus all the rest of the federal holidays, and I pay them for all of it. Call it another couple of weeks of vacation, but on my schedule instead of theirs. I also don't dock their pay if they need to be late or leave early to take care of personal business, as long as they don't abuse it. Nor to I take away OT pay if they have missed a day that week. If they work outside of normal business hours, I pay OT no matter how many hours they have actually worked that week. Pretty much I try to treat them how I would like to be treated. I buy them lunch on a fairly regular basis. We even go home early any time we finish early, with pay of course. There are also bonuses throughout the year when particularly difficult projects get done successfully. 

On the flip side of that, I expect certain things. Like don't berkeley up my schedule because you got drunk the night before. Like working long days and odd hours without complaint. Two guys will be working this Saturday. They will get OT, but they will also be missing out on a day off this week. I don't do comp time unless they request it. They seldom do. There will be several more weekends coming up that will need to be worked. They will work them. Sorry, that's the job. I think I paid out around $15k in OT last year. All in, it works out pretty well. No one has quit yet and I think the competition probably pays a little better. They are shiny happy people to work for though. 

There are some people that thrive on work and having a set schedule. My business partner hates taking time off. Don't ask me why, I think he's crazy, but he hasn't taken a vacation or even a day off in 9 years. I think he works most holidays, at least a half day. He does not like the schedule to change. Drives him crazy that the rest of us disappear for days on end because of holidays. But I'm the HR department so he's going to have to deal. 

Personally, I take two weeks plus a bunch of Fridays and Mondays throughout the year and as many holiday days as I think I can get away with and still keep the customers happy. 

I have 5 weeks PTO, 7 holidays, PLUS nearly 50 Fridays off per year, but I work my ass off for the remaining 4 days per week. 

That’s the equivalent of 16 paid weeks off per year. 

Very few people would want my job. Works well for me!

In reply to SVreX :

Knowing the quality of most subcontractors, I wouldn't have your job. I'd end up in a mental ward.

In reply to Toyman01 :

I RUN the mental ward!!

In reply to Toyman01 :

You hiring?

I kid. Mostly. I’m going on 4 years in with the local T dealer and not entirely sure I’ll hit that 4 year mark. A big part of that decision is driven by choices and changes implemented by upper management. Last year they berked a couple hundred people out of well earned vacation time and gave no notice that things were going to change. Pay is stagnant and not on level with CoL in the area. Moral is quite low and getting lower almost daily. I’ll be (almost a done deal at this point) taking a substantial pay cut in the short term to work my way up the next few years back to where I currently am but the difference is I’ll be a partner and able to make more of the decisions regarding my time. I won’t be obligated to waste my day if there is no work. I won’t have to explain private family situations in order to alter my schedule a bit, and I won’t be a meaningless grunt. 

Without getting any more personal and without getting political I would just like to see employers pay as much attention to taking care of their employees as they do chasing that last percent of profit. Happiness and moral go a long way. Case in point: I witnessed my manager get his ass reamed after a record month earlier in the year because we were down from the previous month by 1.2% profit. Never mind we broke the monthly record for my 5 man department by more than I’ll make this year. And not just a little “hey we need to do better”, either. Sure made me want to work harder, I tell you. 

I worked with some French people for a bit a while back, and I can tell you they are a LOT less PC.

I suspect working in the EU is similar to working in the US in a heavily unionized company, or maybe the government.  The upside (for the worker) and the downside (for people who deal with the workers) are the same, it’s hard to get fired (or fire those who need to be).

I have worked for a variety of companies over my years in engineering. My co-op job in college was with a large textile company here in the southeast. It was ok, but the writing was on the wall due to NAFTA. The place that I worked during my college rotation has been bulldozed for about 5 years now.  While I was there about 20 years ago, they were pulling machines out of the floor and shipping them overseas while simultaneously putting a new roof on the building, new HVAC, and updating floor structures for new machines. They tried to make a go of it and save some jobs. The tide was against them. 
 

I went to work for an large Asian company in a related industry. The HR team was a special piece of work. They hired a guy from out of town; then eliminated his position about 6 months later. Seriously, completely screwed the guy; talked him into buying a house, the whole nine yards. They were in a constant state of reorganization; it hid the attrition very well. While I was trying to figure out what direction to go; they presented me with an offer to be a ex patriot. Nay, they presented  me with an ulcer inducing ultimatum to move. At that point, I left the company. I had already witnessed how they handled other folks that didn't work out after a move. I definitely did not want a dose of that in a foreign country. I was only there for about 2 years. It was a real E36 M3 hole.
 

Then I went to work for a small company partially for a change of scene, change culture, and partially as penance for things that I could not correct at my prior employer. I took a pay cut. I helped build out the place. I unlocked the door in the morning. I locked the door at night. Sometimes, I worked 7 days a week for a month or two at a time. I missed a major family vacation because a guy from our other office forgot to put my coverage on his calendar; even with multiple emails, months in advance. On the flip side,  I could take an afternoon off whenever I wanted or a 3 hour lunch a couple of days a week. A weeks vacation, not a snow ball's chance. This little side track stalled my career. I wasted about 5 years in a dead-end situation. If there is only one guy between you and the owner, well there is only one position between you and the owner.  If I ever work that hard again; my name has to be on the sign out front.

 

I should probably skip ahead to when I work for a European company. There were other jobs, offers, and other interviews in the intervening years, but that is really not that important to this discussion. Working for a European company has its positives and negatives. They are fairly good about vacations. I typically cannot take all of the time that I have available. They also tend to moderate the Type-A personalities a bit more than American companies.  The flip side is their time to market and in-ability to make a decision or even stay the course on some decisions is quite maddening.  Did I mention that they way-way-way over complicate the heck out of things? This is a real problem. Simplifying equipment in order to make it reliable is part of the frustration and part of my job. Their pay scale is also behind US employers for skilled technical labor by a widening margin. It is a mixed bag. 
 

A good leader is worth their weight is gold; more so than where the company hails from or whether they are a mom an pop or a multi national giant. My worst boss who was very by-polar; happened to be at an American company. He would slap you on the back, smile and say, "tester you will be the last guy they walk out of here."  You never knew if it was Jekyll or Hyde doing the talking. He made what had been a tough but rewarding job into a complete and utter torture.  It was him not the company. 
 

Most of my managers have been pretty good.  I can count the bad ones on one hand. Mr. Bypolar (American-multinational) takes a slight lead over the upper management lying American SOB at the Asian company only because it seemed more personal with Mr. Bypolar. The micro manager who hasn't figured out that he has moved up a level (European and American) is always tough to deal with no matter how things are actually going. He always wants to keep his hand in even though he is no longer in the game.  Finally,  the indifferent boss who just doesn't care (at least one in every company) can get you killed both figuratively and literally. 
 

Ok. I think that is probably enough for now. 
 

I am doing subcontract design-build engineering work for a European company now.  The interesting part is the company itself does contract work (they make products for other companies), so the dynamic is a bit different than other companies we do work for.  One of their engineers made an interesting analogy about their operations: "You're in the Indy 500 in a turbo car going flat out. Your mechanic has to hang on to the car and add a second turbo while the car never slows down." As part of that team of "mechanics", that pretty much nails what it's like working here.  I'm usually not entirely sure what I'm be doing each day, but by the time I shut my laptop off to leave and go back to my hotel room, I'm wiped out from putting out fires all day.

pheller said:

It'd be interesting to see the average length of employment with a given employer by age bracket in the US vs Europe. I'd bet that younger Americans tend to job hop a lot more than Europeans, but I could be wrong. 

 

Based on my experience as a younger American with a job, we job hop because we don't get advancement and we don't get advancement because we job hop. I don't know which came first but, there is a lot of sentiment that loyalty isn't rewarded "like it used to be". Not saying whether that's true or not, I wasn't there back in the day, but the rule of thumb is that if you want a raise, promotion, or new job title you have to job hop. I'm already at the top of my field, there's not a lot of growth potential, so I know the only way to do better is to finish college and find a new company to work for. They're decent people here but they're not going to pay me anymore and that's the American way. 

As for Euro vs American styles... From what I've heard from Euro friends, the continental style of shorter days or weeks and lots of time off is definitely paid for in their taxes. I can't say who has it better but I will say that I think the frustration of the younger American worker is pretty well justified. Companies don't care about us except as a payroll line in the budget that they would cut if they could to increase share value. Is that right or wrong? Decide for yourself. Euro models wouldn't get brought up if we thought our way was superior. 

Edit: Anecdotally, I have heard from a hiring manager that more than 3-4yrs with a company in the same role is often looked at unfavorably as stagnation rather than loyalty. Less the 2-3 yrs is job hopping but once with a job change is often understood. 

In reply to barefootskater :

Not at the moment, but the last guy I hired was a service tech at the local Toyota dealer. He wanted out of the car hustle. 

I have worked for US and German companies and my take is that no company, regardless of size, type, or national origin, gives a rat's butt about their employees. Venture capital groups have driven an insatiable need to grow through acquisition, and even smaller companies are starting to model this behavior. Employees are no longer seen as valuable team members worth protecting, they are treated like office furniture and just as disposable. Unless you own your own business, you are screwed whether your paycheck comes from Detroit, Dresden, or Dafeng.

alfadriver said:

One thing to think about, here in the US, there's a lot of "live to work" as our work "ethic" is what drives this country.  Were you can say that Europeans "work to live".

My company certainly has a lot of issues with our European branch, but when you look closely at what they "bring"- it has nothing to do with actual labor, vacations, and how much you enjoy work.  It's just odd decisions that make no sense.

I work with a lot of people who struggle to use their vacation time, and that confuses me to no end.  Not only do I now get 5 weeks of vacation, I buy two more- and add that to the about 1.5 weeks we get thanks to the UAW.  But that keeps me happy and refreshed, so the work I do when I'm here is very intense and focused on solving a problem.   Even with so much time away, I've never had a problem getting stuff done.

But when you really consider the constant banging of people to work harder and be more efficient- who does that really benefit?  I'm not getting any more pay for the increased work, if I come to work an hour early and stay an hour late- my salary is fixed.  What is the real source of the constant barrage of "work ethic"?

On that note, one should probably look at the pay difference between BOD and the super upper management (if you have Chief of your title) compared to the people doing the actual work- up to say first level managers over supervisors.  Without looking at a google search, I'm 99.99% sure that the difference of that vs. the EU is pretty stark.  And it's not as if the EU does not have a lot of very wealthy people....

I will start by saying I wish I could buy two extra weeks of vacation. I do get 224 hours of PTO a year, which is a lot. I further that by taking days off without pay if I want to do something without cutting into my PTO. As long as I do not fall below the magical 32 hours a week average. I am golden.

I do know that since MGM bought us out, everything has been capped for me. I cannot gain any more PTO and I get no more raises. I really dislike MGM and the changes they have made, mostly in making things cheaper. I miss my original employer, Boyd Gaming. The Building is filthy and starting to fall apart and nothing is being done about it. I sensing that it is time to get out

In a perhaps related note, most of the EU countries have larger percentages of their workforce dedicated to manufacturing than the US.

Nearly 80% of the US economy involves the service industry, and those tend to be lower paying jobs with non-traditional schedules, relative to manufacturing jobs.

So, perhaps more people in manufacturing means more people making higher wages, getting better benefits, etc than their equivalent peers. This seems to be echoed by people in this thread that work in the automotive industry and the assertion that it's more similar to the European model than many other industries in the US.

If I want to get higher within the physical security field, I essentially have to give up my free time and be available 24/7.

Just something about getting a $10k raise, but having to work almost all day and night doesn't sound all that appealing to me.

I'm definitely more in the mindset of work to live, not live to work.

I know just on my team, the Commerce team, we have Tech Writers in Manilla, California, Canada, OKC, London, and Barcelona. 

The major gripe the US group has is the dramatically lower number of PTO/Holidays that we get here. There is a vast difference between people in different countries, doing the same job, and less time off...........although the US employees are typically paid better as compared to standard of living in the other countries. 

Example:
US Employees get 10 paid holidays. 1-3 years, 13 days of PTO (4 of which we are required to use for the end of year shutdown - don't get me started how much that annoys me), 3+ years, you get 18 days of PTO. That's it, no increase from there. 

Employees in Manilla get 21 paid Holidays, 20 days of PTO, and aren't required to use any for a forced shutdown. 

Canada and the other countries fall in between these twp extremes.