tuna55 said:Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:You just listed a bunch of small, souless eco-boxes and expensive luxury cars.
Nothing there was over the price of a loaded minivan.
Nothing there could be described as souless. have you driven any of them? Sat in any of them?
I've driven both the i3 and the Ioniq out of those you listed. Ioniq is pretty soulless. i3 is awesome.
Give me an electric crew cab, 8' bed 4x4 pickup with 300 miles of range (while towing a 10k trailer) for under 40k, and you'll have my attention.
volvoclearinghouse said:Give me an electric crew cab, 8' bed 4x4 pickup with 300 miles of range (while towing a 10k trailer) for under 40k, and you'll have my attention.
Can you get that in a Diesel or Gas truck now?
We're still in the early days of electrics. Almost everything started out in a luxury or niche model before spreading.
About 6 years ago we got an electric bus to try. It was comical. It was built in China by people that perhaps had a bus described to them over the phone, it had issues with heavy customer loads, climate controls, and it was moved on quickly. Now I have a small fleet of 60 ft articulated buses on my lines that are indistinguishable from diesels to our customers, are drivable in the snow unlike traditional attics, go most of the day on a charge. Currently aside from price and charging they're easily as good as their diesel counterparts. The tech is improving quickly and it may not be long before something shows up for pretty much everyone.
mtn said:volvoclearinghouse said:Give me an electric crew cab, 8' bed 4x4 pickup with 300 miles of range (while towing a 10k trailer) for under 40k, and you'll have my attention.
Can you get that in a Diesel or Gas truck now?
Base model 2500 in that config from any of the big 3 with a gasser is right around 40.
volvoclearinghouse said:mtn said:volvoclearinghouse said:Give me an electric crew cab, 8' bed 4x4 pickup with 300 miles of range (while towing a 10k trailer) for under 40k, and you'll have my attention.
Can you get that in a Diesel or Gas truck now?
Base model 2500 in that config from any of the big 3 with a gasser is right around 40.
I can tell you my 4x4 crew cab short bed diesel 2500 doesn't have that range when towing 10k.And it wasn't under $40k a decade ago. It may not be much under that now with 90k on the clock. This is a cloth seat, two knobs on the radio truck with no cameras - not exactly luxe.
There will always be those who set unrealistic targets in order to "prove" something doesn't work and then keep moving the goalposts to make sure they're always right. And there will be those who set themselves a stretch goal and aim to make it happen. The latter should be applauded, the former should be ignored because they're not just non-productive, they're actually counter-productive.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I'll attempt not to take your attack personally, though I feel it is. My point was, a 100,000 dollar useless SUV of a vehicle is not going to move any goalposts. A reasonable HD truck that an average person might buy, will. That's not unrealistic, nor unreasonable.
Also note, your truck is diesel. The diesel premium on trucks is huge. I've been on the online truck configurators, what I stated was fact. As for the range, I don't know your truck in particular but I've had two diesel trucks, and both of them could go 300 miles easily on a tank while hauling a loaded double car trailer. Even my current gasser truck will do 300 miles towing a single car on a hauler.
EDIT: I will revise, I just checked Chevy's configurator and the truck I stated was $45k. So I'll revise my number up a touch. I really am powerplant agnostic when it comes to trucks. Diesels are stupidly expensive, and gas engines are thirsty. An electric pickup would be great.
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
Is a single car on a hauler 10k lbs?
A NEW gasser getting 300 mile range while towing 10k pounds. That's a crew cab with a 8ft bed with a 4x4 drivetrain. For under $40k.
These are what I call GRM-spectations (pronouced grimspectations). Want all the capability without the price.
Reminds me of the rwd 2300lb sports car with a manual and 250hp for under $20k. Please include a warranty and be reliable. GRM-spectations
In reply to yupididit :
"Grimspectaions"...
I like that!
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
You're not on the only one coming up with lists of requirements in this thread :)
My truck gets 10-11 mpg when towing the two-car trailer. It's an enclosed 28' trailer and drag is a bitch. I had to look it up, but it does appear to have a 34 gallon tank so I guess it does have a theoretical range of over 300. Looking through my records, my typical fill is about 25 gallons so that's 250-275 miles. I'm pretty sure the range indicator would be showing a negative range if I had burned more than 30 gallons, so some of that capacity may not be useable. In theory my truck can meet your requirements (other than purchase price) but in reality that's not an attainable number unless you're trying to prove something in particular. Use case: interstate towing with speeds ranging from 60-80 mph. Vehicle: stock 4WD crew cab short bed 2010 Dodge 2500 diesel with a stick.
Yes, diesels cost more but they also work better when you're towing. That's a different conversation :) But it could be argued that the characteristics of a diesel is closer to an EV than a gas truck is, and the market does value diesels more than gas trucks as indicated by resale value. Still, I'm not completely convinced that it passes the range test either.
Expecting EVs to match all characteristics of a liquid fueled engine is where we tend to make the mistake. They put their costs in different places - they're a lot less expensive to refuel, the way they refuel is different, their maintenance costs are lower. I mean, it takes 3 gallons to do an oil change in the big beast! If you're looking at a truck, it would be worthwhile to estimate total cost of ownership over time if you want to truly compare pricing.
And we have adapted our habits to how ICE vehicles work. Could there be a better way in a vehicle with different characteristics? For example, on road trips with our EV we almost never have to consciously refuel. The car refills itself on the charger at the hotel overnight, it refills when we're at Ikea, it refills when we've stopped to eat. It's a thing that happens in the background, you just plug it in and walk away*. You don't run the car down to empty and then jam in a bunch of fuel all at once like you do with an ICE. You can, but you don't have to.
* note that this is the experience with a Tesla Supercharger or destination charger, and may not be the experience with a different charging network. But we'll treat it as an ideal that has been proven to be possible and hopefully it'll be the norm in the future as everyone gets their excrement together.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
You make valid points. I gave up on diesels and picked up a big block gasser 3500 dually with a stick...interestingly, it also gets 10-11 mpg when towing, though only that single car trailer, loaded, so perhaps 6-7k pounds. My truck has a 40 gallon tank, so 300 miles is no problem. The total cost of ownership of the diesel just seemed to always be higher, not lower. As you pointed out, oil changes were $100 affairs, as opposed to $30 for my current truck. Repairs were always more costly. Yes, they do hold their value, but the cost of entry is higher.
I do think that the electric drivetrain lends itself well to short-range delivery type vehicles, such as package delivery and utility vehicles. The drivetrain from the Hummer or a HD pickup might be adaptable to this use case. And yes, the characteristics of an EV would make it essentially the "perfect" diesel.
I've never owned an EV. I don't have anything against them, but when new vehicle shopping back in 2018 the long-term break-even point compared to a gas vehicle (we're talking Chevy Bolt vs. Mazda3) was over 100,000 miles. That, and the charging network is still a bit underdeveloped for my comfort, right now. So I ended up with the Mazda.
I love the idea of an EV truck, but right now, my company buys all my fuel (and they would not pay for my electricity)
Free fuel= really bad math for an EV purchase.
Guess I get to wait until they work out some of the bugs.
EVs make perfect sense for delivery vehicles because of regen. In an ICE, you put a bunch of energy into accelerating the vehicle and then you throw it away when you hit the brakes. With regen, you get some of it back. I have a suspicion this also means that the mass of the vehicle becomes less of an issue. There's also no time spent idling. Cross-country towing is going to be the hardest problem to solve because there's just so much energy involved.
If an EV is the same cost to own over 100k as an ICE at the lower end of the market (including maintenance), I'd call that pretty good! The state of the charging network is less of a problem than you might think as you only need it when you're going more than (workable range/2) miles from home. I mapped out all the Superchargers in Colorado a while back and was surprised at just how good the coverage is. Non-Tesla networks are a little more random but there are still a lot more of them than you think - it's easy to overlook a charging station because they're smaller and less billboarded than a gas station. But the only time our EV has needed a charging station is when we're on a road trip to Denver or SLC.
Owning my diesel truck I've come to realize that it's not just a big car. It's a fairly heavy duty piece of equipment that is built to work hard for a long time, and has the maintenance needs of a heavier duty piece of equipment. I'm okay with that because it's just so much better suited to the job it is asked to do than a gas truck is so the money is well spent. If I were just doing Home Depot runs, it would be a waste. It's all about the right tool for the job.
SVreX, someone is paying for that fuel :) It's like free shipping, it's not really free. My wife's company gives her a car allowance that includes a fuel payment based on miles driven. Obviously she's pocketing most of that.
Keith Tanner said:
SVreX, someone is paying for that fuel :) It's like free shipping, it's not really free. My wife's company gives her a car allowance that includes a fuel payment based on miles driven. Obviously she's pocketing most of that.
Yes, but its not him, and the savings from going electric [probably] wouldn't hit his pocketbook unless he has ownership in the company.
Keith Tanner said:The state of the charging network is less of a problem than you might think as you only need it when you're going more than (workable range/2) miles from home. I mapped out all the Superchargers in Colorado a while back and was surprised at just how good the coverage is. Non-Tesla networks are a little more random but there are still a lot more of them than you think - it's easy to overlook a charging station because they're smaller and less billboarded than a gas station. But the only time our EV has needed a charging station is when we're on a road trip to Denver or SLC.
Nearly 32,000 miles on the Bolt. Almost all were me. I have plugged into a charger that was not located at my house once, for about 30 minutes, because it was there, and using it gave me a way better parking spot.
mtn said:Keith Tanner said:
SVreX, someone is paying for that fuel :) It's like free shipping, it's not really free. My wife's company gives her a car allowance that includes a fuel payment based on miles driven. Obviously she's pocketing most of that.
Yes, but its not him, and the savings from going electric [probably] wouldn't hit his pocketbook unless he has ownership in the company.
Well, that's not universal. There's nothing preventing the company from sharing the savings with employees, or from shifting to a different way of paying for company cars. The standard IRS mileage compensation rates, for example, include fuel costs. If I use my personal vehicle for work purposes, I get that fuel payment. Maybe the company will realize that it's less expensive to them to have employees running EVs and will change their policies to encourage it.
So in this one particular case for this one particular individual working for this one particular company it makes sense to keep milking the deal he's offered while it's offered. But it isn't necessarily permanent and if you're looking at the employer as a soulless corporation interested in nothing but the bottom line, things may change specifically because of that bottom line.
volvoclearinghouse said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
I'll attempt not to take your attack personally, though I feel it is. My point was, a 100,000 dollar useless SUV of a vehicle is not going to move any goalposts. A reasonable HD truck that an average person might buy, will. That's not unrealistic, nor unreasonable.
Also note, your truck is diesel. The diesel premium on trucks is huge. I've been on the online truck configurators, what I stated was fact. As for the range, I don't know your truck in particular but I've had two diesel trucks, and both of them could go 300 miles easily on a tank while hauling a loaded double car trailer. Even my current gasser truck will do 300 miles towing a single car on a hauler.
EDIT: I will revise, I just checked Chevy's configurator and the truck I stated was $45k. So I'll revise my number up a touch. I really am powerplant agnostic when it comes to trucks. Diesels are stupidly expensive, and gas engines are thirsty. An electric pickup would be great.
An average person is not buying a new HD truck. Even an average truck buyer is not.
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
I'm pretty sure if you placed the order for that truck the price would go up, and the delivery date would be somewhere around November. Regardless of what the configurator says. That's the reality of the market right now.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Yes. The specifics of my situation are VERY specific, and apply only to me. But they DO apply, and therefore I will not be buying an electric truck as long as I am working.
You missed a lot. There are lots of other reasons (like the cost of commercial insurance, the huge number of miles we drive, and the rapid depreciation value of vehicles in the construction industry) that my company has made a really smart decision to handle it the way they do. There is absolutely zero chance they would encourage anyone to switch to electric (and the vehicle owners in my industry would be the last consumers open to the idea anyway).
mtn said:volvoclearinghouse said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
I'll attempt not to take your attack personally, though I feel it is. My point was, a 100,000 dollar useless SUV of a vehicle is not going to move any goalposts. A reasonable HD truck that an average person might buy, will. That's not unrealistic, nor unreasonable.
Also note, your truck is diesel. The diesel premium on trucks is huge. I've been on the online truck configurators, what I stated was fact. As for the range, I don't know your truck in particular but I've had two diesel trucks, and both of them could go 300 miles easily on a tank while hauling a loaded double car trailer. Even my current gasser truck will do 300 miles towing a single car on a hauler.
EDIT: I will revise, I just checked Chevy's configurator and the truck I stated was $45k. So I'll revise my number up a touch. I really am powerplant agnostic when it comes to trucks. Diesels are stupidly expensive, and gas engines are thirsty. An electric pickup would be great.
An average person is not buying a new HD truck. Even an average truck buyer is not.
I am just not buying anything right now. Markets are just insane. I am just glad I have all the houses and vehicles I need right now.
Going back into my cave to hide from all the sticker shock.
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
I agree that there certainly are going to be people in your industry who will be EV-resistant to the end - but you may be surprised that it's not all. You probably remember that my wife works for a heavy highway construction company. The reaction to her EV by her coworkers has been quite positive overall and some of them are really excited about the Cybertruck (I'm guessing they haven't heard about Rivan and friends because they didn't get as much press). And that same company is the one that structures their vehicle allowance as a set amount per year plus a per-mile fuel allowance. I can't remember if there are any other workarounds for fuel like being able to fill up at the yard, I'll ask her later. I know she never filled up her gas vehicle at work.
The huge number of miles may make EVs more beneficial to that industry if the decreased maintenance costs are real, as they'll really kick in as the vehicles rack up miles. Also - no clogged DPFs from hours of idling! I'm thinking of the light duty truck vehicle type, haulers may take a while longer especially if the business depends on independent contractors for their trucking needs. Whoever cracks the light duty pickup market with an EV is going to do very well for themselves - and the underpinnings might be under the Hummer that started this whole discussion :)
I think commercial insurance is a separate factor from drivetrain type. I know that Janel's insurance requirements didn't change.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Yes, I am aware of what your wife does.
Heavy construction is a sector with different requirements. Companies have a need to maintain control of their rolling stock, and move heavy loads regularly all day long. They generally stay within a reasonably close radius from home because of the large cost of mobilizing heavy equipment.
I can almost guarantee that all but upper management drive their own vehicle to the shop each morning, and then drive a company vehicle all day. That's a very different scenario. (And I doubt most of them will actually buy Rivians or Cybertrucks for their personal vehicles- they simply won't pay the entry price).
Different issue for the company owned vehicles. They are gonna heavily favored diesel vehicles, mostly because they buy diesel in bulk for their equipment, and it's easy to fuel the trucks too. Every vehicle they own needs to be able to tow a heavy load at a moment's notice, and fuel from a mobile fuel truck.
I know there will certainly be lots of interest in her truck, because construction guys like trucks. But the jury is still way, way out as to when there will be a mass shift to electric for anyone in the industry.
Heavy construction, commercial construction, industrial construction, and residential construction are all individual industries (or at least individual sectors) with individual needs.
Doesn't change that I won't be buying an EV truck for as long as I am working. It absolutely won't make any sense at all.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
And yes, Janel's insurance needs didn't change. If she owns the truck, it's private insurance. If the company owns it, it's commercial.
My point was that my company has figured out how to avoid paying commercial insurance by encouraging us to drive our own vehicles. It's a big cost savings, and won't be effected by EVs.
Unless they enabled all the staff to buy EV personal vehicles. And that would be ridiculously expensive for them.
I thought we were talking about company-subsidized private vehicles. What the company pays for commercial insurance seems irrelevant, and again I'm not sure what the powerplant choice has to do with it anyhow. But if the company has realized that they're paying a bunch for fuel and they could save on that if they encouraged their staff to buy EVs instead, they may start finding a way to encourage that. And the price of EVs has been dropping and will continue to drop, so I don't know if I would make any definitive statements about how this will never happen.
Highway construction around here (which is know is very different from vertical) is quite spread out because of our population density. But the workers do tend to stay in a small area once they've arrived at work. And they take their company trucks home. Keep in mind that the ability to hook up and tow any random thing on a moment's notice is also dependent on the driver having a CDL, because anything hooked to the back of a "9,999 lb GVWR" pickup immediately goes over that 10k level. I'll have to check to see how many of their folks are required to have a CDL but I don't think it's universal.
(edit: they almost all do for exactly this reason. The company will pay for it)
It's pretty easy to fuel an EV at a construction site if the utilities are in ;) Remember, they start the day full so it's a question of if they can get through the day on a single charge. This will vary quite a bit depending on useage.
The shift will be gradual, and it'll start on the light end of the spectrum. Once there are legitimate F150-sized EVs, they'll start to make inroads. Then the 3/4 ton and 1 ton pickups will follow. The big heavy stuff will take longer.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
The utilities are virtually never in at construction sites.
If I do a project that lasts a year, the utilities are on for no more than 1 month. We always have to set up 2 utility accounts- temporary (which we pay), and permanent (which the owner pays associated fees, but does not get approved or activated until the building has been issue led a CO- that's when complete).
Temporary electric is almost always 110V only, and a minimal amperage service. When we need real power (like welding, etc), we run off generators.
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