Tesla owners have apparently shown near-zero interest in battery swapping stations, in favor of quick-charging:
http://www.engadget.com/2015/06/10/tesla-battery-swap/
I knew this day would come and that it would be close. It happened a little faster than I thought in fact.
I think battery swapping will still make sense for race cars (and bikes) for a while though...I'd guess another 5 years. At that point, they'll probably be dumping energy from massive capacitor banks into dual-carbon batteries through cables as thick as a gas pump's hose.
for race cars can tracks just add electrically charged strips (think 3rd rail setup) along the track surface in a grid and the cars have a metal strap that drags (think reverse of the top of a bumper car) that recharges them while driving? flaggers and safety workers would need hit a local shut off of the charged setup when responsing
Mmmmm... they've pretty much ignored the 'average' person in favor of those who have the time to goof off while charging. I ga-ron-tee that if they had done this with some soccer moms driving their SUV's and had not done it by appointment only (that was stupid) there would have been a completely different reaction.
Until I can get batteries either swapped or recharged fully within about 15 minutes, I'm not interested in electric cars as a viable replacement for internal combustion-powered cars.
captdownshift wrote:
for race cars can tracks just add electrically charged strips (think 3rd rail setup) along the track surface in a grid and the cars have a metal strap that drags (think reverse of the top of a bumper car) that recharges them while driving? flaggers and safety workers would need hit a local shut off of the charged setup when responsing
They'd need 2 rails...a 3rd rail setup uses one of the other rails as a ground. And then the track would be insanely expensive to build, and your tires would have less grip every time they run over a metal charging strip. Plus if there's a wreck, some metal debris could cause a short.
scardeal wrote:
Until I can get batteries either swapped or recharged fully within about 15 minutes, I'm not interested in electric cars as a viable replacement for internal combustion-powered cars.
No problem, just a few more years then 
It's seemed to me the EV manufacturers always missed the mark on battery swap out. Namely making it quick and easy. Ideally, it should be able to be done in the same time as gasoline refuel. A simple railed box in the rear for example. Flip the door, release the locking mechanism, pull it out. Reverse to install the replacement battery pack.
In order to be effective, it would have to be standardized. And that's probably the death knell here in the US.
And light weight enough for the average soccer mom to pick up a rack of batteries. Might be a problem.
foxtrapper wrote:
In order to be effective, it would have to be standardized. And that's probably the death knell here in the US.
That's the death knell anywhere. It's at least as bad as standardizing engines in ICE vehicles and for all the same reasons.
GameboyRMH wrote:
foxtrapper wrote:
In order to be effective, it would have to be standardized. And that's probably the death knell here in the US.
That's the death knell anywhere. It's at least as bad as standardizing engines in ICE vehicles and for all the same reasons.
Uh, there are two standard ways to reful for ICE motors- gas and diesel. ICE's in the US are common in the fact that they burn those hydrocarbons. Not coal, not wood gas, not hydrogen, not some kind of burnable powder.
Ok, not including propane and natural gas.
But that's what we are talking about- taking a car that has little potential engergy and adding some. For ICE's that adding a hydrocarbon of some type. For electric motors, it's adding electricity.
ICE's have been standardized for over 100 years already.
I meant that standardizing batteries in ICEs carries as many downsides as putting the same exact engine in every car on the road (and in the exact same position) - huge packaging problems, lowest-common-denominator performance, and no technological advancement unless you want to break compatibility.
EV charging systems are also standardized now. EVs all take electricity at a few standardized voltages and current types.
Standardizing isn't as hard as it sounds; who says the battery pack has to be exactly the same size/voltage? Break it up into 'modules' of a given voltage/number of individual cells and add/subtract as needed; just spitting out goofy numbers say the cells are 1.2 v, there's 150 to a module, that's 180v per module, one car might take, say, 4 modules the next takes six. Need more cells with a lower voltage? Install relevant wiring and connectors at factory, no biggie. Problem solved.
Nahhhh, that's too easy. In the interest of protecting their fiefdoms, no manufacturer will ever allow something this simple.
GameboyRMH wrote:
I meant that standardizing batteries in ICEs carries as many downsides as putting the same exact engine in every car on the road (and in the exact same position) - huge packaging problems, lowest-common-denominator performance, and no technological advancement unless you want to break compatibility.
EV charging systems are also standardized now. EVs all take electricity at a few standardized voltages and current types.
In the idea of packaging, yes, standard batteries would be like standard engines.
But the whole point of common batteries is to swap them quickly. Which is a requirement of qucikly adding potential energy. Aka, refulling. So the actual issue is common refuling. Like ICE cars do right now.
If one can recharge with a cable like pouring a HC into a tank, well the battery swap point is moot.
But the "going to happen in a few years" argument started a long time ago. Someday, it may happen. Will it be in 2018, or 2025? Managing electrical potential energy isn't as simple as liquid chemical potential energy.
Curmudgeon wrote:
Standardizing isn't as hard as it sounds; who says the battery pack has to be exactly the same size/voltage? Break it up into 'modules' of a given voltage/number of individual cells and add/subtract as needed; just spitting out goofy numbers say the cells are 1.2 v, there's 150 to a module, that's 180v per module, one car might take, say, 4 modules the next takes six. Need more cells with a lower voltage? Install relevant wiring and connectors at factory, no biggie. Problem solved.
Nahhhh, that's too easy. In the interest of protecting their fiefdoms, no manufacturer will ever allow something this simple.
This is hardly better, it would still require a standardized location (floor-accessible at least), the standardized module size would increase overall battery bulk (same as having multiple fuel tanks instead of 1), and it would still require a standardized type of battery. Want to upgrade from (BATTERY-TECHNOLOGY-X?) Too bad, it breaks compatibility with the battery swapping system.
alfadriver wrote:
If one can recharge with a cable like pouring a HC into a tank, well the battery swap point is moot.
But the "going to happen in a few years" argument started a long time ago. Someday, it may happen. Will it be in 2018, or 2025? Managing electrical potential energy isn't as simple as liquid chemical potential energy.
It's also worth considering how much less often you'll need to "fill up" when you leave home with a "full tank" every morning...and that "tank" gets bigger and bigger over time. I think before the time comes that charging speed matches HC filling speed, the time will come when needing to stop for a charge will be such an uncommon task that the time needed won't be as much of a problem. You'll be doing it once every couple months instead of once or more a week.
As I said, too simple. FWIW, upgrading from older battery tech will be hard as the dickens anyway. It's also expensive; there's a guy out there who upgraded a Tesla from a 60kw pack to an 85kw and it set him back $18,000.00.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089183_life-with-tesla-model-s-battery-upgrade-from-60-kwh-to-85-kwh
I don't mean upgrading the same car, that is indeed a crazy amount of work. I mean, what if all the cars are driving around with Battery Technology X and there's a big battery-swapping infrastructure for them. Then Battery Technology Y comes out which is way better, and that gets put into new cars. The new cars can't use all those old batteries (and their chargers) even if they can meet the standard otherwise.
Do all the old battery swapping stations get tossed in a landfill because they're no longer needed/compatible? Do you have multiple battery swapping infrastructures for every new battery technology? Or do cars have to stay on Battery Technology X no matter how hilariously outdated it becomes?
Manufacturers would probably like to use standardized batteries if it made any sense. If they all bought the same spec batteries, economies of scale would make those batteries as cheap as possible, meaning more competitive product prices/bigger exec megayachts. They wouldn't have to suffer the costs of making batteries in-house. They have nothing to gain through "battery protectionism." They already mostly use the same cell type, which is about as deep as they can standardize (at least for now) without suffering serious downsides.
GameboyRMH wrote:
alfadriver wrote:
If one can recharge with a cable like pouring a HC into a tank, well the battery swap point is moot.
But the "going to happen in a few years" argument started a long time ago. Someday, it may happen. Will it be in 2018, or 2025? Managing electrical potential energy isn't as simple as liquid chemical potential energy.
It's also worth considering how much less often you'll need to "fill up" when you leave home with a "full tank" every morning...and that "tank" gets bigger and bigger over time. I think before the time comes that charging speed matches HC filling speed, the time will come when needing to stop for a charge will be such an uncommon task that the time needed won't be as much of a problem. You'll be doing it once every couple months instead of once or more a week.
That's not filling up once a month, that's filling up every single night. The requirement to plug the car in is easy, but one can just as easily plug in a natural gas line to fill up.
ultraclyde wrote:
And light weight enough for the average soccer mom to pick up a rack of batteries. Might be a problem.
No. No more than requiring her to pick up the gasoline. This would be done by station attendants, or it could even be robotisized. Pull in, change out the battery pack in under 5 minutes, and on your way. No need for work by the car owner.
captdownshift wrote:
for race cars can tracks just add electrically charged strips (think 3rd rail setup) along the track surface in a grid and the cars have a metal strap that drags (think reverse of the top of a bumper car) that recharges them while driving? flaggers and safety workers would need hit a local shut off of the charged setup when responsing
Yeah, and a channel in the road to help align the car with the charging strips ...
It appears Tesla's choice of cell (the 18650, standard size for laptops etc) is already looking dated. 3.6v, 18 mm dia x 65 mm long, 3.6v but has proprietary Tesla venting and short protection.
http://articles.sae.org/12833/
Can't find anything solid, it appears the Powerwall cell is the same one used in the cars. If there's a huge battery breakthrough in the next 4-5 years, unless Tesla's plant can be rapidly reconfigured that's gonna be one huge white elephant. But I digress; the main point is, why can't these be packaged in modules as I mentioned? In fact, it appears they already are.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/16535-Battery-facts
They cells are grouped together inside the battery pack, but making them individually replaceable would add a lot of bulk and complexity (as in some of the parts that serve the whole battery pack would have to be duplicated for each module - like that protection PCB you can see in the diagram, connectors, cooling system parts...)
And then those would all have to fit some standard and you're back at square one. The only advantage of many replaceable battery modules over a single big pack is that it gives you a little more packaging flexibility.
I dunno... I mean Tesla is doing amazing things trying to advance all aspects of electric vehicles but its still very early in the game. I think once mass produced electric vehicles become mainstream, the battery swapping idea may come back into favor. I think using Tesla as a litmus strip to gauge standardization is a bit premature. You know as soon as the major automotive players get up to speed, there is going to be different schools of thought on recharging/battery swapping systems.
It's like VHS vs Betamax for the 21st century 
scardeal wrote:
Until I can get batteries either swapped or recharged fully within about 15 minutes, I'm not interested in electric cars as a viable replacement for internal combustion-powered cars.
You can do it almost right now. i can charge from dead to about 80% in my i3 in 20 minutes. I am doing it twice along the was to Vegas later in the month.
