Last night I was cleaning the shop and stumbled on some old gear of mine.
Helmet worn once and stored away in a padded bag. 6 pt Safety harness never installed, fire extinguisher system never installed, and various other stuff I purchased for my V12 E type roadster.
Since it's my butt on the line why can't I determine if it's safe to use rather than some date stamp?
Because you don't have the ability to determine if it actually IS safe to use. Materials change with time.
frenchyd said:Last night I was cleaning the shop and stumbled on some old gear of mine.
Helmet worn once and stored away in a padded bag. 6 pt Safety harness never installed, fire extinguisher system never installed, and various other stuff I purchased for my V12 E type roadster.
Since it's my butt on the line why can't I determine if it's safe to use rather than some date stamp?
Because it isn't just your butt, it is the sanctioning bodies butt on the litigation line.
Helmet would probably still be good for a 4wheeler/snowmobile, basically anything you do that is unsanctioned, but for sanctioning bodies they cannot take that risk.
Keith Tanner said:Because you don't have the ability to determine if it actually IS safe to use. Materials change with time.
Have you never driven/ ridden in a 10 year old car with the original seatbelts? 20 year old? Older?
How about that roll of web material at the shop that made the seat belts? Does that have a date code on it and the manufacturer's all adjust based on that?
I can understand your argument that material changes over time when exposed to harsh chemicals or Strong UV light etc. but stored in a house. On a shelf in the closet?
Wouldn't the material display signs of damage? Fading or thread fraying etc.
mtn said:frenchyd said:Last night I was cleaning the shop and stumbled on some old gear of mine.
Helmet worn once and stored away in a padded bag. 6 pt Safety harness never installed, fire extinguisher system never installed, and various other stuff I purchased for my V12 E type roadster.
Since it's my butt on the line why can't I determine if it's safe to use rather than some date stamp?Because it isn't just your butt, it is the sanctioning bodies butt on the litigation line.
Helmet would probably still be good for a 4wheeler/snowmobile, basically anything you do that is unsanctioned, but for sanctioning bodies they cannot take that risk.
That assumption of liability you're required to sign?
I understand anybody can sue anyone at anytime over anything.
But that sort of person is going to sue no matter what is signed or date stamped etc.
If you're doing autocross or HPDE, the belts are fine. If you do w2w, it's just the rules. No point in arguing with that rule, they had to draw a line in the sand somewhere and that's it.
Nylon and polyester age very differently - poly stabilizes after an initial drop in strength, nylon does not. I’m sure you’ve noticed that OE seatbelts are not the same material as most race harnesses. Preventing UB exposure helps a lot but it’s not the only factor.
And no, there is little visible change. The SFI has pictures showing a black belt that has seen enough UV degradation to drop its strength in half. There is no visible sign.
I have replaced seat belts in older cars due to strength concerns. I also use FIA rated harnesses because they’re certified for 5 years and the higher up-front cost does pay for itself.
And that’s just the belts. The materials in helmets degrade with time. Fire extinguisher contents can settle and solidify (Woody probably has more info here). Those dates exist for a reason.
People with way more knowledge about material strengths have determined that things are less safe after a certain time. I've learned to trust these people when it comes to my safety.
I dumped my bike in 2014. I had a nice, expensive Arai helmet. It only showed scrapes, but I junked it. I k ew how hard my head hit the pavement. It did it's job, but it was impossible to determine if it was compromised without sending it back to Arai and by then, that would money better spent on a new helmet.
The replacement Arai is coming up on their 5 years recommend replacement. I'm going to abide by that. You might say they do that to simply sell more, but why? Dead customers don't buy new helmets.
frenchyd said:mtn said:frenchyd said:Last night I was cleaning the shop and stumbled on some old gear of mine.
Helmet worn once and stored away in a padded bag. 6 pt Safety harness never installed, fire extinguisher system never installed, and various other stuff I purchased for my V12 E type roadster.
Since it's my butt on the line why can't I determine if it's safe to use rather than some date stamp?Because it isn't just your butt, it is the sanctioning bodies butt on the litigation line.
Helmet would probably still be good for a 4wheeler/snowmobile, basically anything you do that is unsanctioned, but for sanctioning bodies they cannot take that risk.
That assumption of liability you're required to sign?
I understand anybody can sue anyone at anytime over anything.
But that sort of person is going to sue no matter what is signed or date stamped etc.
So, by your logic, you should also be allowed to delete the roll cage in your car because you assume the liability of deciding you won't have an accident or that the crash structure of your car is good enough.
frenchyd said:Since it's my butt on the line why can't I determine if it's safe to use rather than some date stamp?
Try it and see how far you get through tech.
Yeah, ultimately you ARE allowed to decide if something is safe or not, but you will not be allowed to participate with certain groups. Whether or not it is safe doesn't matter if it doesn't meet their standards.
Porsche Club won't allow expired harnesses in their HPDE's either. So if you have expired harnesses, definitely check with the sanctioning body before you sign up for the event and show up thinking you can run them.
frenchyd said:Keith Tanner said:Because you don't have the ability to determine if it actually IS safe to use. Materials change with time.
Have you never driven/ ridden in a 10 year old car with the original seatbelts? 20 year old? Older?
How about that roll of web material at the shop that made the seat belts? Does that have a date code on it and the manufacturer's all adjust based on that?
I can understand your argument that material changes over time when exposed to harsh chemicals or Strong UV light etc. but stored in a house. On a shelf in the closet?
Wouldn't the material display signs of damage? Fading or thread fraying etc.
So, I work as an engineer in automotive safety:
Belts are different materials OE to motorsports stuff. I will say that some of it is up to the fact that the date stamp is the best guarantee that the material hasnt expired. It is a set of conditions that it should still be good through without abuse. They may still pass all the tests, but the tests are destructive in nature (usually a coupon of material is destroyed). It isnt just litigation, but if you heard that X people died doing something, that something becomes harder to keep up as a going concern. (and for the record: YES seat belts in cars should actually be replaced every 10-15 years, it would just be a nightmare to enact laws requiring it.)
If you are the tech inspector, how do you ensure that billyjoe cheapstuff isnt lieing about how it was stored just to avoid actually spending money on something that doesnt make him faster? Its like front spindles on many british cars, if you didnt magnaflux or dye test how do you know its safe to run even if its claimed that it was only street miles and never hit a pothole? They are just lucky that you can non-destructively test a spindle. Hell, I'd bet you have met a few people who would run a helmet with the interior falling out from rot if they werent required to replace them every decade or so (I know I have!, hell it took laws to make people riding motorcycles to actually wear helmets!)
I get it, I have two sets of harnesses brand new in the box that are expired. I might use them for autocross, but I wouldnt go roadracing on them. I get wanting to save money, but planned obsolescence really is the best way to guarantee that you are safe; and I hope you dont disagree with my assessment that you are worth the money to keep around.
KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:If you're doing autocross or HPDE, the belts are fine. If you do w2w, it's just the rules. No point in arguing with that rule, they had to draw a line in the sand somewhere and that's it.
I understand. Rules is rules!
It still irks me that items I feel are race worthy will cause a significant delay in my return to racing. The money I spend for items like this on a retirement budget really hurt. It will not only delay my return but limit the number of events I can enter.
I recently had a set of belts re-webbed and certified. Kept all the metal parts and the cut up webbing came back in the box with it. 1/3 cost of new and painless, thanks RJS.
Apexcarver said:frenchyd said:Keith Tanner said:Because you don't have the ability to determine if it actually IS safe to use. Materials change with time.
Have you never driven/ ridden in a 10 year old car with the original seatbelts? 20 year old? Older?
How about that roll of web material at the shop that made the seat belts? Does that have a date code on it and the manufacturer's all adjust based on that?
I can understand your argument that material changes over time when exposed to harsh chemicals or Strong UV light etc. but stored in a house. On a shelf in the closet?
Wouldn't the material display signs of damage? Fading or thread fraying etc.
So, I work as an engineer in automotive safety:
Belts are different materials OE to motorsports stuff. I will say that some of it is up to the fact that the date stamp is the best guarantee that the material hasnt expired. It is a set of conditions that it should still be good through without abuse. They may still pass all the tests, but the tests are destructive in nature (usually a coupon of material is destroyed). It isnt just litigation, but if you heard that X people died doing something, that something becomes harder to keep up as a going concern. (and for the record: YES seat belts in cars should actually be replaced every 10-15 years, it would just be a nightmare to enact laws requiring it.)
If you are the tech inspector, how do you ensure that billyjoe cheapstuff isnt lieing about how it was stored just to avoid actually spending money on something that doesnt make him faster? Its like front spindles on many british cars, if you didnt magnaflux or dye test how do you know its safe to run even if its claimed that it was only street miles and never hit a pothole? They are just lucky that you can non-destructively test a spindle. Hell, I'd bet you have met a few people who would run a helmet with the interior falling out from rot if they werent required to replace them every decade or so (I know I have!, hell it took laws to make people riding motorcycles to actually wear helmets!)
I get it, I have two sets of harnesses brand new in the box that are expired. I might use them for autocross, but I wouldnt go roadracing on them. I get wanting to save money, but planned obsolescence really is the best way to guarantee that you are safe; and I hope you dont disagree with my assessment that you are worth the money to keep around.
I just wish I could feel like I got a fair deal in the rules. In all the decades of racing I did since 1962 my judgement kept me out of harms way. Accidents avoided, unused Rollbar, fire suits, seatbelts, etc.
A serious part of me believes that while safety is a good thing, there comes a point where it's too much like the helicopter Moms who hover over her child and while she may save him from bumps and scratches she denies him a full life.
Maybe it's my age, remembering what a blood sport racing used to be. How it was a rare week that someone wasn't killed. Not that that was a good thing but now we've got to the point where risks are completely removed sanitizing the sport too much like a Video game. If you make a serious judgement error you just hit reset.
Duke said:frenchyd said:mtn said:frenchyd said:Last night I was cleaning the shop and stumbled on some old gear of mine.
Helmet worn once and stored away in a padded bag. 6 pt Safety harness never installed, fire extinguisher system never installed, and various other stuff I purchased for my V12 E type roadster.
Since it's my butt on the line why can't I determine if it's safe to use rather than some date stamp?Because it isn't just your butt, it is the sanctioning bodies butt on the litigation line.
Helmet would probably still be good for a 4wheeler/snowmobile, basically anything you do that is unsanctioned, but for sanctioning bodies they cannot take that risk.
That assumption of liability you're required to sign?
I understand anybody can sue anyone at anytime over anything.
But that sort of person is going to sue no matter what is signed or date stamped etc.So, by your logic, you should also be allowed to delete the roll cage in your car because you assume the liability of deciding you won't have an accident or that the crash structure of your car is good enough.
You make a valid point. I'll put a rollcage in fully expecting to never use it because I haven't since I started racing back in 1962.
i haven't used my helmet, fire extinguishers, or fire suits either. I just hate the idea of buying all new stuff like that delaying my racing Re-entry and seriously curtailing the number of races I can run.
I also hope that if I find I can't or shouldn't continue racing I won't push on trying to get my money's worth.
In reply to frenchyd :
http://racesuitrental.com/
+
FIA belts equals more events without breaking the bank?
While we are on the subject, I have heard that old helmets can be donated for first responder training, since they have to learn how to (destructively) remove a helmet from someone who may have a neck injury.
Damned if I've been able to find someplace to donate my helmets to, though.
I stopped trusting old belts after seeing someone at our local track snap his after hitting the wall. Granted they were pretty old, but still. I have seen them break and that's enough for me.
In reply to frenchyd :
I feel your pain re the budget. When I raced something that resembled a helmet was about all you needed. Now days car safety gear costs as much as some of my track cars back then.
The idea is to expire them while the worst cheapest most poorly treated example is still well within the safety window.
How much are you looking to spend?
A decent, certified GeForce harness is like 70$ if you don't mind latch and link. A zamp helmet is 200$.
A certified new fire suppression system is less than 400$
I hit the wall at Charlotte doing 110+ earlier this year because somebody hit somebody else who hit me. Not my fault.
Car caught on fire. Car is now living in car heaven.
I walked away....
Not that much in the scheme of things.
dean1484 said:In reply to frenchyd :
I feel your pain re the budget. When I raced something that resembled a helmet was about all you needed. Now days car safety gear costs as much as some of my track cars back then.
My first helmet was a old plastic football helmet with the bar removed.
When I started Vintage racing I borrowed everything required including a seatbelt. But then entry was only $15.
Now Vintage entry fees seem to start above $500
I think the problem with the "It's my life, so you should let me risk it in any way I want" philosophy is that it ignores the costs to the other people around of a serious injury or death. Even ignoring the liability that you can never completely waiver away and the financial costs of increased insurance premiums or lower interest, there's a tremendous emotional/mental cost to other people who are present when an accidental/preventable death happens. Survivor's guilt is a real thing.
Yes we used to live with much less safety gear but that's not a desirable state to return to.
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