alfadriver said:Those economic issues really have no bearing on how long they actually last.
Actually they do. People are forgoing buying something else because the new entry point is well above their/lending institution's comfort level. So, they keep trucking on with ol reliable until it's rusted up to the point of unrecognizable junk, only in the rust belt tho. In the south and out west, they just have a better living environment.
JMO.
Okay, devils advocate here, and to be clear I am a strong advocate of repairability, but what percentage of people would ever repair their Keurig? Should the manufacturers be forced to redesign their products for 1 percent of their customer base? And repairability will require more complicated machines - why use screws when adhesive will do?
In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :
No one would need to repair it if the reset button was accessible. Even a "push here with small screwdriver" would work.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:Okay, devils advocate here, and to be clear I am a strong advocate of repairability, but what percentage of people would ever repair their Keurig? Should the manufacturers be forced to redesign their products for 1 percent of their customer base? And repairability will require more complicated machines - why use screws when adhesive will do?
Repairs don't have to be performed by the end user.
All cars need service, maintenance, and repairs. Only a small minority of owners do any of this themselves beyond topping up necessary fluids.
Make it so *someone* can repair it. The end user has the option to take their $200 coffee maker and attempt to repair it themselves with $40 of parts, or take it to a small shop and pay someone $80 to repair it. I imagine a LOT of people would choose the $80 repair over the $200 replacement.
In reply to Beer Baron :
But if for the $80 fix is a two week wait on the $40 part because it's one of 6 versions, I'm buying new. Because coffee makes most of the world functional every day.
In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :
I'm probably being too literal since I think your question has solid applicability to other products, but in this case (the Keurig), "repair" means "making the reset button accessible." That I think even the average bear can handle. At least accessing that reset was the fix in the example given earlier in this thread.
(This too-long post wanders further and further from being specifically a reply to that point, and more about this thread in general...)
I think it's case by case (no pun intended), and the first step is not specifically obfuscating the possibility of repair, and not litigating for the idea that once you've bought an object you're still required to pay the selling vendor for repair. But you're absolutely right that in some cases making the device repairable would have other tradeoffs in cost, form factor, etc. I think we would all benefit from having things be more repairable than they are, on average (resources, landfill, etc) and if some things are more readily repairable, that helps keep that idea in people's heads. If 5% more often people just thought "I wonder if I could fix that?" instead of going straight from "doesn't work" to "replacement ordered" that would be a lot of saved money and stuff not thrown out. I think. Or to put it slightly differently, an assumption of repairability to some degree might *expand* that 1 percent you're talking about.
The expectation that stuff is repairable or worth repairing takes some exercise. I came closer than I'd like to admit to just replacing my Black and Decker weed whacker the other day. The trigger just got nasty-feeling and it didn't want to turn on. The guilt of having bought three other devices for that battery and knowing a replacement would either be the same flawed device (Nothing like punishing bad design by buying another one) or something that needed a different power source made me open it up. Stupid design that had a protrusion on the trigger hitting a microswitch tangentially to depress it. It just bound up after some use and there was enough friction to just shove sideways on the switch instead of depressing it as it slid past. One small daub of silicone grease later, everything's dandy.
It didn't even need a part. It was slightly fiddly to put back together, but at least it didn't require breaking any tabs or other extreme measures to open it up. But I've been so trained by stuff that was either designed without repair in mind (or with preventing repair in mind) that I almost didn't try. Getting us away from that is meaningful.
Okay, last thought on the topic, and I'm honestly not sure what it says: I think the average person used to know more about how to fix their car (or lawn mower, or...). I also think one of the main reasons that's less true now is that it's less necessary now. Stuff works better for longer with less attention (EDIT: some stuff. We clearly have also gotten good at making stuff that's 15% as functional for 10% of the price, or sometimes vice versa), and there's plenty else to take people's time and effort. That said, I don't think that's an excuse for things to be so disposable, even if they provide more utility before being junked than the stuff of 50 years ago did with two engine rebuilds. There's too much tied up in the building of stuff for it to become a landfill/recycling challenge when 90% of it is in good shape. We also need to make headway on how we recycle stuff. We clearly do it badly, but it's hard to imagine a pile of junk isn't a richer and easier source of raw materials than whatever chunk of geology stuff is normally found in.
In reply to Jesse Ransom :
From an environmental standpoint, repairing is better than buying new. If the Kuerig is that simple, it's curious that the EU hasn't forced the makers to put the reset button on it, as not doing that results in waste that can work. The only real exception I would make is for a certain development for safety or environmental standards.
OBDII rules are the way they are to allow non OEM mechanics to repair cars. Too bad that the poliferation of system computers is being allowed to be hidden.
In reply to alfadriver :
When it turned out that one could spoof the data signals in a pushbutton start vehicle with an Alibaba dongle, or Chrysler electronics could be hacked remotely via radio connection, they had to crack down.
The network topography of the newer Chryslers is funny. The data link connector and entertainment modules are on ONE side of the security module, everything else is on the OTHER.
You can still talk to the other modules without a security code, but it requires physically tapping into the data lines on the other side of the security module.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
I am under the impression that they did little or nothing about security in those examples, on a level which would have made my security professor snort derisively and talk about the folly of "security through obscurity."
I may be misinformed, but I'm left with the impression that they lock down diagnostic and tuning access to help quash DIY/independents, while doing the minimum (or less, obviously) about actual security because it doesn't result in a brochure bullet point.
That's a simplistic and possibly unfair synopsis, but I'm not sure by how much.
The value of the consumables is really significant. Keurig doesn't actually care about selling machines. They care about making machines available so people will buy their K cups. Yes, they make money on the machines (and yes they should be repairable), but the business model is the consumables.
I'm old enough to remember when construction job sites didn't have nail guns. The companies who were trying to get us to lay down our hammers and use their air tools were more than happy to give us the guns for free. I still have a bunch of older Senco guns which were completely free when they were new. And they were built like tanks. They wanted us to buy the consumables. There was no value to a company building crappy mail guns. If it broke, they'd just have to give us another free gun, and we wouldn't be able to buy the consumables.
Once a cultural dependency on nail guns was created and every homeowner seemed to own one, the price of nail guns shot up and the quality of the products dropped. It became valuable for guns to need to be replaced.
Coffee is the same way. There is now a cultural dependency on having the stuff every morning, so they have no reason to offer machines that are inexpensive and long lasting.
Consumables are a huge business model.
alfadriver said:Those economic issues really have no bearing on how long they actually last. Cars last longer now than they ever have, and a lot of that does have to do with emission laws that require them to survive to 150k miles.
serious question: where do emissions laws require cars to survive to 150k miles?
Fixing stuff is weird, culturally-speaking. It probably depends a lot on where you spend your time in the socio-economic strata. There are people that I work with that I would define as very solidly upper-middle-class that see it as a badge of honor that they don't have the slightest clue how to open up something and find out what's wrong. When I've heard them talking about a failed clothes dryer, for example, and offered the suggestion that it might be as simple as the thermal fuse, they'll laugh and take it as a point of pride that they don't have any idea how to even open the thing up and they're going to call the local appliance place to come out and look at it. I think there's an element of conspicuous consumption to it. At the same time, I think there's also some degree of freedom in ignorance. There have been many times where what I wanted to do was anything else but what I HAVE to do is fix this widget that our household needs to function. Our culture has also really transitioned to one of specialization and experts which gives folks a bit of a mental block about dipping their toe into someone else's area of expertise. To be sure, there's a lot of daylight between the guy that calls the plumber instead of just using a plunger and the guy that "does his own research", but we have developed a cultural bias towards dependency on "the experts" in most areas of our lives. I think that also keeps a lot of people from even trying. During Nocone's Q&A session before the awards at the Challenge, he gave the advice that if you don't know how to do something, just pick up the tools and try. I was elbowing my daughter and whispering to her that was the same thing I've been telling her all her life and that it's the absolute best advice that anyone can give. Sadly, I think that advice is become more relevant over time whereas 50-75 years ago if you said that to someone they'd think you were talking to a young child.
The dichotomy of that is when you do grab ahold of something and figure out how to fix it, some of those same people that completely pooh-pooh the idea of not turning it over to an expert will stand in a bit of awe. They ask stupid questions like "how did you ever figure that out!?" and you have to give them answers like "well, step two of the instruction manual said to plug the device in" or "the first Google result for 'wonkulator doesn't wonkulate" had a step-by-step guide to fix it".
Aside from a cultural shift, there's also a bit of an technological and economic shift. Even before you had this change in consumer attitudes, there were TV repair shops and small appliance repair, and even cobblers to fix your shoes. Those businesses are all but gone now because in so many cases it's just cheaper to throw away the old and buy new than to pay someone to fix it. My Mercedes is a perfect example of that on the automotive side. They wanted $21,000 to put a new engine in a vehicle that was valued by KBB & NADA at around $14,000. Even the Saab is similar - to take it to an "expert" to have them fix the brakes, put a new top on, install a new fuel pump, fix the trim, replace the ignition switch, and so on would have been at least $5,000. Small appliance manufacturing, like the Keurig, is kind of the same way now. Because they can be manufactured so cheaply, it makes absolutely no economic sense to make them repairable. A new one is $151.82 and available with same-day delivery from Amazon. Who would drive it across town, leave it with a shop for a week, and then pay $100 or more to fix it? How many of these machines would you need coming through the door every day to make it worth your time to be a small appliance repair shop and how much would you need to charge for your labor to make it worth your while? Now, I absolutely agree that manufacturing it so that you've hidden the reset button is outside of the scope of my argument - that could be simple laziness between the two design teams and it could absolutely be a way to design in new sales.
It is good, though, to hear that folks are starting to want to try to fix things. I don't really give that much of a damn about the ecological side of things, per se, but I do have a deeply -rooted opposition to throwing away something that could be used for something else or repaired. I hate the idea of wasting something - even throwing a pickle jar in the trash makes me cringe because that's Good Stuff that I might be able to find a use for! Even though I have about 25 empty and cleaned out pickle jars in a bin on a shelf just waiting for me to find something to do with them some day. (confession: I did finally just toss them....). That said, if trying to fix instead of trash things comes from tree-hugging I'm happy to walk the road together and celebrate what we've got in common.
In reply to jmabarone :
Started in 2002 with the PZEV part of LEVII (which includes all Green States), and now is part of the LEVIII rules that basically cover the entire US.
In reply to wae :
I have much commentary but agree 100% with all.
There is the "say, this is a really nice box" effect that leads to, well, 25 pickle jars 
In reply to wae :
I went through somethign similar with my middle son, 15, on Sunday. The hand-me-down motherboard in his PC crapped out almost 2 months ago. I ordered a replacement and its been sitting in the dining room for about a month and a half. My oldest son's car needed brakes, he bought all of the parts and I walked him through the job on Sunday. Whilke we were in the middle of the job my other son came out and asked me to swap out the board in the computer. I told him that I could not help but he was perfectly capable of doing the job, take pictures and he could ask questions if he needed to. His response was " but I don't know how to do it" to which I responded neither did I the first time. He eventually got it done with only a few hickups and I heard him talking to one of his friends yesterday about how he did it himself. Hopefully the lesson sinks in and he will be more ready to tackle the next thing that comes along.
alfadriver said:In reply to jmabarone :
Started in 2002 with the PZEV part of LEVII (which includes all Green States), and now is part of the LEVIII rules that basically cover the entire US.
Not to argue with you (thanks for the info, I didn't realize that was a thing), but the warranty is only on the emissions control components. The EPA doesn't care that your engine pops at 100k so long as the O2 sensors and cats are still functional. Caveat to that is that the electric power in hybrids has to be warrantied to 150k.
wae said:I hate the idea of wasting something - even throwing a pickle jar in the trash makes me cringe because that's Good Stuff that I might be able to find a use for! Even though I have about 25 empty and cleaned out pickle jars in a bin on a shelf just waiting for me to find something to do with them some day. (confession: I did finally just toss them....).
I take my household recycling to the local convinience center every week. I find the number of decent bicycles, mowers, etc. getting dropped off to be almost criminal. I'm dang near convinced I could fix half, it not more of them, within 30 minutes.
I've also recently had to purge the number of good glass jars I had hanging around in the garage down a bit.
Some of the issues with carbon depsits in direct-injection engines is concerning for the longevity of motors. Whether it's burnt up valves, EGR systems, catalytic converters, or sticky rings, I get the feeling that a lot of new cars will start to be expensive to fix in 10 years.
In reply to Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) :
Man I wish I had the same. I tried at my recycling center and they were sad they couldn't let me- they knew EXACTLY what a fresnel lens was and why I wanted one, and started talking about what they've pilfered for their own projects. I was being blue balled, it was not okay!
jmabarone said:alfadriver said:Those economic issues really have no bearing on how long they actually last. Cars last longer now than they ever have, and a lot of that does have to do with emission laws that require them to survive to 150k miles.
serious question: where do emissions laws require cars to survive to 150k miles?
They dont! But in mandating and forcing cleaner emissions it's lead to engines having to burn more cleanly, which meant tighter engineering tolerances and less carbon buildup. That also enforced improved filtration, thinner and better oils, and lots of other things that gave us ~300HP V6s getting 30MPG.
jmabarone said:alfadriver said:In reply to jmabarone :
Started in 2002 with the PZEV part of LEVII (which includes all Green States), and now is part of the LEVIII rules that basically cover the entire US.
Not to argue with you (thanks for the info, I didn't realize that was a thing), but the warranty is only on the emissions control components. The EPA doesn't care that your engine pops at 100k so long as the O2 sensors and cats are still functional. Caveat to that is that the electric power in hybrids has to be warrantied to 150k.
I'm not that sure about that, but even so, having the components that fail more regularly being forced to improve to 150k brings up other parts that rarely fail. Especially when common engine problems lead to O2 and cat failures- the catalyst requirement has really done a number on oil consumption- engines have to meet 10-15k/qt being burnt to keep the catalyst alive for 150k. It's much less common for engines to pop compared to catalyst and O2 failures.
BTW, I do know that the warranty does not actually cover the full milage, but if there are chronic failures between the warranty end and the legal limit, regulators can force a recall. So if an engine family starts to show a huge increase in oil consumption at 110k miles, the OEM can be forced to deal with it even if it's outside the warranty period.
In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :
Sorry, but the laws for emissions DO require 150k mileage. BTDT. I've done probably thousands of emissions tests on vehicles that had parts aged to 150k miles to prove that it made it.
The cleaner emissions requirements came with increased mileage requirements. And the OBDII requirements also get tougher for the combination of those two.
pheller said:Some of the issues with carbon depsits in direct-injection engines is concerning for the longevity of motors. Whether it's burnt up valves, EGR systems, catalytic converters, or sticky rings, I get the feeling that a lot of new cars will start to be expensive to fix in 10 years.
Sticky rings is nothing new. Saturn says "hi" from 1991.
Right to repair is interesting because of the intersection with consumer protections.
Whether it's the early Saturns or my 2010-2014 Prius, oil burning has completely ruined an otherwise reliable car. If I was the original owner who spent $25,000 or more on this car, I'd be pissed.
Thus, we get manufacturer recalls that are somewhat instigated by the FTC's BCP, but those recalls and warranty issues don't really trickle down to consumer goods unless they'll kill you. You could buy a $1000 item today, have it fail tomorrow, and aside from maybe a warranty, you're SOL.
In my mind, these types of consumers protections should be put in place on anything expensive, and for cheaper things, they should be required to make them easy to fix.
I have been to 3rd world countries where fixing things like electrical hand tools was the norm ,
there was even a shop which only sold brushes for electric motors ,
yes they were fixing "real" tools USA , European , Japanese and not the Chinese throw away stuff ,
also in another area were the electronic guys , they had cell phones open replacing "something" which here would be a throw away item.
ohh and the guys that were fixing old speakers but replacing the cone fabric ......
that's why I love looking at YouTube videos of shops fixing stuff !
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