For lovers of alternative education for children

In reply to Patientzero :

I think you have summarized the challenges pretty well, and there aren’t good answers. The truth is that it is extremely difficult to compare a school to one in another district or state. 

I was public school educated. I went to middle school in one school district, and was top of my class. All of the accelerated classes, excellent grades. Everything on paper looked awesome. Until I moved to the district next door. 

Though I was top of my class in 8th grade, I found myself needing remedial help in my new high school. I had no idea what some of the concepts were. I went from winning championships in math competitions, to having to attend summer school to catch up on the basics. 

Standardized testing is a pretty lousy measure. It’s very easy to “teach the test” and improve scores without improving education.  And there are big financial incentives for some schools to do this. 

I think comparisons are quite meaningless. The only thing that matters is your student. Are they enthused about learning?  Is she inquisitive?  Bored?  Is he struggling with reading in 5th grade?  Does the environment encourage him to want to learn, or is he hiding from the real work?

Regardless of what school our kids attend, the reality is that promoting the best opportunities for them to succeed educationally is OUR jobs as parents.  Not the school’s.

So, why aren’t you teaching your daughter foreign languages?  Don’t relegate the privelage of educating your kids to a stranger.

It sounds like public school is working pretty well for you.  Couldn’t you just augment it with things at home?

Your specific questions about curriculum... all rules and guidelines vary by state, and I don’t know much about MO.  But I don’t think any state requires a particular curriculum.  Varying  sources, curriculums, and methods are one of the great advantages of homeschooling.

That, and socialization.  

(Dropped that intentionally without explanation... I’d be happy to talk more if you like)

It’s not for everyone.  But it is wonderful alternative opportunity for many people who never try it.

Sounds like you have an ideal situation for homeschooling, but also that you are happy with what you’ve got.  This will be a personal decision for you as a parent.

PM me if you’d like to talk more.

Since you started this thread, I've had two kids. They're now 2 and 4. The 4 year old is frankly brilliant (of course, all kids are above average ;-) and has a playfulness with language that some adults don't ever get. She's picking up reading on her own She's in a "play centered" preschool 2 days a week and with us the other 5. We do a once a week Spanish class and try to use it with her here and there through the week. It's amazing what she picks up. We moved into a good school district so she could go to public schools once of age. You've given me a lot to chew on here, though, and have me thinking about that decision. I was home schooled through a correspondence school for high school with very little parental involvement and so have a different idea of what home schooling is. I never thought I would consider it for my kids, but you've got me thinking.

Yeah, me too-even though we live where we do because of the schools.

Unfortunately this decision is an unknown amount of time away for us right now, but one of Angela’s NICU nurses said they homeschooled their kids after going to a convention, and felt like they’d be bad parents if they didn’t. That left a big impression on us for sure. I do think that whatever we do, a lot will have to be supplemented outside of the classroom-specifically math and art. 

A thought here: I had a tremendous education. Similar schools to where we live now. There is nothing that would make me feel uncomfortable sending them there. While our district always had high test scores, we were not taught to the test-at least not to my knowledge even looking back now (the exception to this was our AP classes were taught to the exams, as that was kind of the whole point—and even there, I was way ahead when I got to college). 

That being said, playing on the computer, reading everything I could get my hands on, and a single blow-off class on the Microsoft office suite in high school were better preparation for my life and career than anything else. Well, that and... wait for it... my parents taking us to museums, battlegrounds, doing experiments, teaching us how to tip.... huh, some of that sounds like home schooling to an extent. 

Many of you know, I'm a public school shop teacher.  I've been doing it for 22 years. I have seen a lot of cool and a lot of unusual changes in Education, and the current one where I am is.... certainly unique.

There are good teachers, and there are bad teachers. There are good schools, and bad schools. There is good ______ and bad ______ wherever you go, in every field, but the best thing you can offer your kid is YOU.

If that means homeschooling, do the best dang job you can at providing the best opportunities for your kid. If that means public school, do the best dang job you can at providing the best opportunities for your kid.

It was somewhat timely that this ancient thread got reborn.  Mrs. VCh and I have been considering homeschooling for our kids.   The oldest will be 5 in June, and our state has pretty strict laws on schooling so if we're going to HS her we need to file on it this fall. 

Mrs. VCH is more pro-HS than I am....my education background was 8 years of Catholic elementary school and 4 years of Jesuit all-male high school.  I had what I feel was a very good education and my vote was to send her to the local Catholic elementary.  

Not to sound selfish or lazy, but my biggest concern about HS-ing is the amount of effort it's going to require from us.  We already are having trouble simply raising the 2 kids and finding time to deal with everything else that life throws our way.  I work full time, which means I'm out of the house from 6AM till 5PM every day.  She stays at home, and will continue to, so ostensibly she'd probably do most of the schooling.  We try to work "teaching" into our everyday lives- not "unschooling" (though there's varying definitions of that, and our state pretty much doesn't allow it in any form anyway) but stuff like, "Daddy's cutting 2 foot boards out of an 8 foot board, how many 2 foot boards can he get from one 8 foot board?"  

She's already being pro-active on the socialization front; she takes them both to music class on Tuesdays and they have a weekly nature hike that goes around to different area parks every Thursday.  We've also been doing swim lessons.  

Well, that and... wait for it... my parents taking us to museums, battlegrounds, doing experiments, teaching us how to tip.... huh, some of that sounds like home schooling to an extent. 

That’s all school.  We home school, I feel like i would do my kids a disservice by sending them to school in the district we’re in.  I went to faith based private schools k-12 and while I appreciated my parents sacrificed to pay for it, I rarely use anything from school in real life aside of geometry and basic calculus.  Everything I know about things i do or like I learned from teaching myself or learning outside of school.

don’t get me started on “socialization” - my FIL still brings that up.  You see, my kids are people, they go places and do things with people, I don’t know what you think they’re missing at school besides fart jokes and being lost in the crowd.  They use big words correctly because they “socialized” with adults, and somewhere along the line they just know how to act when in a group of kids.  Colin takes ninja warrior training classes and jumped right in, and Abby jumped right into playing with some of the kids’ little siblings during class

In reply to Patrick :

I have a lot to say about socialization, but I will refrain. 

I used the word as a joke. I am of the opinion that homeschooled kids are almost always better “socialized” than their public school counterparts. 

BTW, 4 of my kids have been to college, and 1 to a public high school. All of them felt significantly better adjusted and “socialized” than their classmates. 

In reply to SkinnyG :

Bravo!

I couldn’t agree more. And thank you- it’s a little rare to hear public school educators say positive things about homeschooling. 

(And I really wish I continued my Industrial Education degree and became a shop teacher!)

My wife and I fully believe that two of my four daughters would have failed to thrive in the public school system because of their nature.

One was extremely shy and reclusive, but here exposure to adults on a regular basis has expanded that.

The more concerning child has to be moving to learn. She will learn anything but, even when she is reading books, she's always bouncing around.

All I know about education is that kids learn E36 M3 at an exponential rate up until the point where we put them into a school system. Then they ALL slow down and a lot just give up on learning altogether. I also know that the smartest adult brains in the country who are involved in educating children have neither the solutions or even the awareness of this reality.

Next we can debate if this is accidental or deliberate? I bet Betsy knows the answer.

Pete

SVreX said:

In reply to Patrick :

I have a lot to say about socialization, but I will refrain. 

I used the word as a joke. I am of the opinion that homeschooled kids are almost always better “socialized” than their public school counterparts. 

BTW, 4 of my kids have been to college, and 1 to a public high school. All of them felt significantly better adjusted and “socialized” than their classmates. 

Just about every actual study I've read backs up your anecdotal data.  That is, homeschooled kids are as good or better in terms of socialization (whatever definition they use) than their "traditionally schooled" contemporaries.  

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

There is an interesting shift in the focus of homeschoolers who do it for an extended time.

When people begin homeschooling, there are LOTS of reasons that motivate them.  Fear, religious beliefs, special needs kids, school shootings, prejudice, educational performance standards in their local schools, child's learning aptitude... it could be anything.

Veteran homeschoolers who have been doing it for say 10 years or more tend to change their focus.  They calm down, and approach the problem less emotionally charged.  And they begin to coalesce around 1 common issue.  Age segregation.

Mainstream schools separate kids by age.  That means our kids are only "socializing" with a bunch of other kids just like them.  And it's the same kids year after year, just a little older (unless they move- then they become outcasts).  That is a unique phenomenon in social interaction.  There is no other time in life when we will be divided and segregated into groups of people our own age bracket, in a similar socio-economic strata, from the same neighborhoods, with similar cultures.  It doesn't happen in college, it doesn't happen in work environments, it doesn't happen online, it doesn't happen in politics, or in GRM.  It didn't happen in old fashioned one-room schoolhouses.  It doesn't happen in life.  Age segregation only prepares our kids for socialization with other people just like them.

Which leaves them unprepared to interact with people different than them.

Plus, ALL groups WILL have leaders.  When a group of kids has no difference in age, or experience, or socio economic class, the kids are left having difficulty identifying who the leaders in their group will be.  If often becomes the class bully.  Or the teacher is forced to intercede, which makes them think that they do not have the responsibility to react to peer leadership- like there will always be a "big brother" type person telling them what to do.

Home schoolers don't have that problem.  They spend their lives socializing with people who are different than them.  Their younger siblings, kids from other families, the older checkout clerk, people from different social strata, etc.

I know homeschoolers who are rich, and poor.  Single income families, and double.  Gay and straight.  Able-bodied and disabled.  Black and white (plus a few more colors).  Conservative and liberal.

At some level, I think the type of socialization homeschoolers are exposed to prepares them much better for success in the real world than public school socialization.

In reply to SVreX :

You raise excellent points.  Again, I've read articles that back up your assertions.  Interestingly, I also read an article recently (I think it was in the Wall St. Journal) that as a society we are trending more and more toward that un-ideal of the schoolroom; that is, we are less and less interacting with people outside of our peer group.  You may draw your own conclusions as to _why_ that is *cough* internet *cough* but the ramifications of that are huge; namely, just as you rightly point out potential psychological problems with kids who only socialize within their peer groups, so it is too with adults.  

One thing I have noticed with my own kids is they seem intrigued with people of other races.  I won't say "fearful", because we haven't taught them to be fearful (though there is possibly some innate fear of those who look different).  But if we go to the store and, say, a person of African descent is the cashier, my kids will tend to stare at them.  It can be somewhat embarrassing.  We chose to live in a relatively rural, relatively affluent area.  Which just happens to also be fairly mono-racial.  And since any sort of major city is a good 45 minutes from home, while I work and do business with and socialize with people from all backgrounds, my kids, by and large, do not.  Not out of fear or anything negative like that, but simply out of convenience.  And I think that's a broader societal issue; segregation of the law may not exist, but we've self-segregated to the point that it can seem, at times, there really hasn't been any progress on that front since Jim Crow.  

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

That’s probably true. 

In the context of homeschooling, however, it’s a little simpler.  Mainstream schools can ONLY include students from their geographic sending district, and ALWAYS age segregate. 

Homeschooled students may or may not be exposed to cultural diversity, but they are almost ALL age integrated (because they are schooled with their siblings). It’s more like an old fashioned one-room schoolhouse. 

In reply to SVreX :

Good point. We may strive for the ideal, but at least "better" is, well, better, even if not "perfect". 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIejieCEfzA&list=PLMNj_r5bccUyulYsatrzNGIvasrOeBy_Y&index=110&t=0s

Add me to the homeschooler roll-call.

Preface: no kids, went to public school, trying to learn about homeschooling

SVreX, could you elaborate more on socialization? Like, how did your kids meet other kids? That question was always the basis of the mean gossip I heard growing up in public school, as I'm sure you're aware. I hadn't even thought about how weird it is that I was age and socioeconomically segregated until college until you pointed that out.

thatsnowinnebago said:

Preface: no kids, went to public school, trying to learn about homeschooling

SVreX, could you elaborate more on socialization? Like, how did your kids meet other kids? That question was always the basis of the mean gossip I heard growing up in public school, as I'm sure you're aware. I hadn't even thought about how weird it is that I was age and socioeconomically segregated until college until you pointed that out.

Not homeschooled either, and my wife and I don't have to worry about this for an unknown amount of time, but growing up the kids that I knew who were homeschooled (including one of my teachers kids) were involved in a ton of extra curriculars - baseball, hockey, football, etc., along with "home school meets" where they'd go and do... Well, I'm not sure what, I'll let SvRex answer that, but it sounded like it could be anything. 

I'd certainly say that my anecdotal evidence would support their claims of better than average socialization. The exceptions to that were the kids who were autistic/other social development issues, and the kids who had real bad helicopter parents. Then there was some awkwardness in the hockey locker room where teenage boys were being teenage boys and trying out swear words and talking dirty, and it had to be explained to a kid what things were. Probably would not have been an issue if he had an older brother, or his parents let him read anything that wasn't a newspaper, or let him watch tv, or listen to music that wasn't written in the 18th century, or, or, or... That isn't to say he wasn't well socialized, just had some awkward experiences. 

In reply to mtn :

Absolutely true.  

There are sometimes some awkward social moments. 

When my daughter started college, she sometimes didn't know how to fit in with her peers.  They would go to a comedy club, and she didn't even know what some of the things were they said.  She was a little bit naive, but she made her own decisions regarding that.  (as an adult I sometimes have to ask myself just why I think I NEED access to some of the crap I consume regularly).

Didn't stop her from growing up.

thatsnowinnebago said:

Preface: no kids, went to public school, trying to learn about homeschooling

SVreX, could you elaborate more on socialization? Like, how did your kids meet other kids? That question was always the basis of the mean gossip I heard growing up in public school, as I'm sure you're aware. I hadn't even thought about how weird it is that I was age and socioeconomically segregated until college until you pointed that out.

Sure.

First off, rules vary by state.  Most of our homeschooling was in GA, and that is what I am most familiar with. In GA, education is compulsory, and the Superintendent of Schools is responsible to make sure kids get educated. He has the authority for public, private, charter, AND home schools.

GA law says homeschooled students have the right to access everything in a public school that any other student can, BUT the local Superintendent of Schools has the authority on how to implement it.  That means my kids had the RIGHT to play on the sports teams or join the band or the science club, but the local school didn't have to let them.

My kids participated in sports in a private school, theatre in a public school, 2 private schools, and 2 community theatres.  They participated in community recreation youth sports, local clubs, the YMCA, scouting, private music lessons, school government, debate teams, mock courtrooms, spelling, geography and math bees, science fairs, civic associations, and government internships.  Most of these things were non- homeschool specific, but public school students would probably not have enough time to participate in many of them.

We have always been part of a homeschool association (most homeschoolers are), and this is an opportunity for more classroom teaching environments.  We had "Friday School"- every week we met in a classroom setting, and parents would co-teach students.  For example, we had one parent who was a chemist- she taught sciences.  But these associations also let us do things like have field days, school trips, yearbooks, and proms.

Then there were the "real life" learning opportunities.  My kids have been building $20XX Challenge cars for 14 years, have worked on construction sites, built websites, run community raffles and fund raisers, owned YouTube channels, volunteered for non-profits like Habitat for Humanity and local food banks, visited museuems and art galleries, joined sailing clubs, travelled.   All opportunities to meet people. 

With all the activities and socialization going on, they don't have time for public school!

Don't get me wrong... There are some people who are dismal failures at homeschooling.  Basically, it is what you make of it.  But most homeschoolers realize their kids will suffer if they sit at the house and become recluses, and most communities have lots of things to plug into.

In reply to SVreX :

Awesome, thank you! It always feels iffy asking questions like that anywhere but here. 

Your homeschool kids certainly did way more cool/valuable things than my allegedly "better socialized" public school self! We stopped field trips altogether in like 5th grade. 

In reply to Vlckoheri :

I agree.

In fact, your post helped me to discover educational canoes.

I worked at a Montessori school in college and really liked that premise for education. I have seen some terrible implementations of it though, so like everything you would want to do some research, but it seems to me to be a more natural way to learn and understand. 

I do have to bring up some personal experience I've had with young adults who were homeschooled. In the early 2000s I was an instructor in a particularly challenging military training program, and at a point in the training where for 6 months the students had to live out on the town.  During that time period enlistment was down and there were a lot of hs kids pumped into the program. 

Academically the failure rate for hs kids vs traditionally educated students was about the same but failure rates for non-academic reasons were about 5 times highet for the hs kids.  Things like not paying their bills, getting in trouble with their neighbors or HOA, hygiene, car accidents, and infractions that cost them the required security clearance were significantly higher.  One hs student required typically as much supervisor involvement in their personal lives as five or six traditional students and two in the same class under the same supervisor was almost impossible. 

I don't know if had something to do with the expectations of the military or if 20 years ago homeschooling was different, but it was terrible for me as a supervisor.   We always assumed at the time that it had something to do with the type of parents that were homeschooling being also the type to helicopter parent and maybe avoid topics that might have helped the kids adjust to being entirely on their own.   We figured that the kids weren't used to having to create their own structure and maybe didn't know any better about some of the other stuff.