Frustrations with interviewing in this wild job market

As far as what SVRex said:

Your attitude will show whether you think it does or not.

I used to have an attitude problem. The "surly mechanic" stereotype. I was a real jackass, I didn't need anyone and if they needed me, screw those guys. Looking out for number 1 after all.

I had roommates with the same garbage attitude and outlook on life. The world is out to screw you so do unto others before they do unto you.

My manager at one time (The guy I followed to a couple jobs and worked with for over 12 years) and I were talking, I was complaining about my life situation and he said something to me: "You are the average of the five people you hang around with".

It made me think.

I started making some changes in my life. I started trying to find the good in situations, finding good in other people. I divorced those E36 M3ty friends and things started to get better.

I had a better attitude, more self-confidence, started hanging around with better people who wanted others to do better as well.

This wasn't an overnight thing, it took years and a lot of hard, painful realizations. It really sucks to find out that you're not nearly as E36 M3-hot as you think you are.

I'm not done by any means, I've still got a lot of personal stuff I'm working through but I'm trying to be a better person every day. I've made a habit of writing down something I'm grateful for every morning, even if it's as simple as having another day to try and be better than the last one.

Stop reading the news so much. The news is just a mirror of the world's ugliness. They never tell you about all the good things that are happening in the world. Yes, there's lots of bad things going on but there have been since the dawn of time. Overall the world is actually a better place than it was 20 years ago.

Hell, you live in North America. You're already richer than 90% of people on this planet.

You can take or leave any of this, you're free to think I'm an idiot or some crazy hippie but I can tell you, my life started getting a lot better when I stopped looking for reasons for the world to be an awful place.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

It's true, I don't want *a job* where that can mean just any job because there are a lot of spectacularly terrible jobs out there these days. I'm looking for fairly regular hours, not necessarily good pay, but pay that matches the skill and effort required (or at least makes up for a bad skill/effort to pay ratio with fun), and not a notoriously terrible workplace. If I could make minimum wage by stocking supermarket shelves or flipping burgers at regular-ish hours I'd be doing that already (one job I applied to and got no response from was moving and sorting goods in the back room of a thrift store, I've also applied to be a pump attendant at a gas station). A major part of the problem is that I'm hardly getting any responses on jobs that don't fit my previous career trajectory, which was already a weird one that doesn't fit anything well. The comforting idea that I could always support myself by finding basic full-time work turned out to be false, because companies don't want to hire people with non-basic skills for basic work. One guy at my last tech job said that his fallback plan was to get a job at the front desk of a clinic that used our software since anyone with a technician's level of knowledge of it would be a shoe-in. I did exactly this and my application was quickly rejected, so he was wrong too.
 

I think you either need to more specifically target where you are applying to, or widen what you are willing to accept. You have said that "regular hours" are important to you. Understandable, that was a primary reason for my last two career changes. You aren't going to get that as low man on the totem pole at any business with long hours of operation. Maybe you can earn your way to your referred shift, but not likely starting there. If you want to apply for those jobs, you need to take whatever they will give you to start. Put yourself in the manager's shoes. Most of his employees what those shifts. Even if they want to hire you and start you at the preferred shift, they know that they would likely have to deal with drama from their more tenured employees that also want that shift. That's a big risk you are asking of them. You just cut your odds of being hired drastically. If your schedule is that high up on your list of priorities, you should focus on business to business employers. They tend to work traditional bankers hours, and are often closed on weekends. Think construction supply. Many of these businesses also have good opportunities for advancement. Since they also deal with many other businesses and vendors on a daily basis, you could meet a lot of new contacts for prospective future employers. 
 

I don't know how much of your IT experience  translates into hardware and infrastructure, but I'd guess some? Check with local Datacom distributors in your area. You may need to start out as a driver or warehouse person, but you would have good hours and lots of opportunity. Do the best you can at whatever they hire you at. They will move you up, or one of their customers or vendors will snatch you up. 
 

Another reason why you may need to start at the bottom. Many job postings for higher level jobs already have someone in mind. They are just posting it to fulfill a requirement. You likely have no chance at the job. To get those jobs, you need a personal connection or already be employed there. 

In my industry (construction) the interview question that is similar to "What hours will you work?" is "Are you willing to travel?"

The answer to this question is "Yes".  It's the ONLY answer to that question. It's not a real question.  It's a test question to see if you will prioritize the company.  

Same thing with regular hours. When you say in an interview "I only want to work 9-5" you are communicating that you aren't a company man.  ESPECIALLY as an IT person (because there are lots of IT things that have to happen after hours).

Take whatever hours you can get, then make modifications or changes later. 

Got your welding cert yet?  We are paying $3000USD hiring bonus for welders, assemblers, electricians making it past 90 days, $4500USD hiring bonus for 2nd shift.  

All indoors, new equipment, regular hours no travel, as much OT as you want, easy 6 figure job if you are worth a crap.  Come on down to Wisconsin.  

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

 

.....Many job postings for higher level jobs already have someone in mind. They are just posting it to fulfill a requirement. You likely have no chance at the job. To get those jobs, you need a personal connection or already be employed there. 

I think this is a prime reason for many of the "phantom" postings many have seen.

93gsxturbo said:

Got your welding cert yet?  We are paying $3000USD hiring bonus for welders, assemblers, electricians making it past 90 days, $4500USD hiring bonus for 2nd shift.  

All indoors, new equipment, regular hours no travel, as much OT as you want, easy 6 figure job if you are worth a crap.  Come on down to Wisconsin.  

I had a look at nearby welding jobs. Pay is decent, nowhere near 6 figures USD but in the same ballpark of what my last tech job paid, but the big problems I see are that 1) there aren't a lot of them, maybe 6-10 within reasonable driving distance, obviously with no remote options, and 2) I don't see any on-ramp, all of them are asking for at least one year of experience. There's no budget to move anywhere in the foreseeable future (among many other potential problems with moving), affording a welding course would already be a wild stretch.

I've also been considering getting trained as a licensed mechanic, I have a cousin who does that so I could ask him what it costs. There are plenty of jobs available with good pay, and plenty of visible on-ramps although most of them go through the mechanics' coal mines, AKA dealerships. Having more tools and mechanic skills could also take a chunk out of my expenditures.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

You didn't need to spell out the reasons it wouldn't work. It was a rhetorical question. 
 

Dude, you're not cut out for the trades.

I doubt you have any idea what is waiting for you in a shop environment. 

The greybeards would chew you up and spit you out.

GameboyRMH said:

93gsxturbo said:

Got your welding cert yet?  We are paying $3000USD hiring bonus for welders, assemblers, electricians making it past 90 days, $4500USD hiring bonus for 2nd shift.  

All indoors, new equipment, regular hours no travel, as much OT as you want, easy 6 figure job if you are worth a crap.  Come on down to Wisconsin.  

I had a look at nearby welding jobs. Pay is decent, nowhere near 6 figures USD but in the same ballpark of what my last tech job paid, but the big problems I see are that 1) there aren't a lot of them, maybe 6-10 within reasonable driving distance, obviously with no remote options, and 2) I don't see any on-ramp, all of them are asking for at least one year of experience. There's no budget to move anywhere in the foreseeable future (among many other potential problems with moving), affording a welding course would already be a wild stretch.

I've also been considering getting trained as a licensed mechanic, I have a cousin who does that so I could ask him what it costs. There are plenty of jobs available with good pay, and plenty of visible on-ramps although most of them go through the mechanics' coal mines, AKA dealerships. Having more tools and mechanic skills could also take a chunk out of my expenditures.

The one year experience thing is another of those things that companies use as a gatekeeper.  Ignore it.

Ignore any of the "must have this many years of experience".  If you have the skillset they are looking for, it won't matter.  Every company does the same thing in different ways that will need to be learned on the job anyway.

Apply to everything even tangentially related to what you wanna do.  Talk to everyone you have ever interacted with in a professional setting.  Ask them if they know of any open positions.  Push until they give you a contact name.

SV reX said:

In my industry (construction) the interview question that is similar to "What hours will you work?" is "Are you willing to travel?"

If you answer "are you willing to travel?" with "yes" in an IT job interview, good things tend to happen as well. Especially because IME the "noes" are in the 70%+ range.

The answer to this question is "Yes".  It's the ONLY answer to that question. It's not a real question.  It's a test question to see if you will prioritize the company.  

Same thing with regular hours. When you say in an interview "I only want to work 9-5" you are communicating that you aren't a company man.  ESPECIALLY as an IT person (because there are lots of IT things that have to happen after hours).

Take whatever hours you can get, then make modifications or changes later. 

I've had plenty of 9-5 IT jobs. They really do exist. Oh, you mean 5pm, not 5am...

OK, snark aside, this is where I get to feel like all the people on this forum yelling at me to just lease a berkeleying Corolla instead of buying another 25 year old E36 M3box.

I've been in the software industry now for 36 years. During that time, the longest period I can remember not either having a job or doing contract work was about three months. For those keeping score, that includes the dot-bomb era, the 08 GFC (while working in investment banking) and the current blip in IT employment. Oh, and I'm also a college dropout who doesn't have a degree, not even a mail order one in polka dot design. The last quarter century of my so-called career was also in two foreign countries where I started out with no professional network, and I'm crap at networking (the interpersonal kind, not the wired kind)

So I kinda have a vague idea what I'm talking about.

So what are the big lessons I learned?

• It's very hard to find another job or contract if you don't have one. That's not new, that's been the case the whole time. Which means that you need to get your foot in the door somewhere, in a relevant field, even if it's not a great job. Then you can figure out if you want to work your way up there, or grin and bear it for a couple of years and then go look for something better.
• If you're in the situation where you're starting from a position of relative weakness because you don't have a degree, you're Johnny Foreigner with a funny accent, you didn't drop out of Stanford and weren't Zuck's college roommate, well, there's a secret how you get ahead - you've got to be noticeably better than your peers to make up for those "deficiencies". It's less hard than it sounds - I've worked with plenty of Stanford grads who had trouble finding their own posterior with map and a flashlight. But you've got to work harder than some other people, and you've got to keep your skills sharp outside of work.
• The universe owes you jack E36 M3. You only get out of what you put in, and that includes sometimes doing something I don't necessarily want to do, and a weekend where I have to travel when I didn't want to and have an upset spouse because we had to cancel plans that we had made months ago.

I was talking to my buddy yesterday. He will potentially be looking for work if certain things that are on hold right now actually go ahead.

He is a tradesman with excellent qualifications, exactly the kind of person you want in your company and on your side. He has been applying in the Toronto area and has not received a single response. Compare that to my experience just a few years ago. Four resumes, three job offers, and he's a significantly better candidate in person and on paper than me.

The market here is not good. Welders on my shift have been asked to choose a first choice shift or plant they would like to move to, or consider layoff. Kudos to the company for keeping them, I can't believe it's been this slow this long and everybody's still working.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

..."mechanics coal mines aka dealerships..."

Comments and attitude like this are confusing and weird. 
 

Working in a dealership isn't for everyone. It might include flat rate pay which some people hate (I like it).  But dealerships represent 20% of all mechanics jobs, so you are ruling out a large number of jobs immediately. 
 

Some people would argue dealership mechanics are some of the most desirable positions.  Better tools, cleaner environments, air conditioned shops, the best training, and higher pay.
 

There will be more pressure placed on you to perform.  If you can crank out quality work, dealerships can be great work environments.  Most of the techs I know in dealerships make comfortable 6 figure salaries and work regular hours.

It's tough to develop a balanced view of a work environment if your only source of info is Reddit complaint boards...

Nobody works flat rate here anymore, it's all hourly pay, but it's a E36 M3 job, and the money's not great

GameboyRMH said:

...affording a welding course would already be a wild stretch.

Maybe it's already been covered, but are you eligible for programs like this?

https://www.ontario.ca/page/better-jobs-ontario

In reply to SV reX :

You're better off arguing with Frenchy about solar, at least there's a 1% chance he will listen. 
Dealership service is a horrible place to work. Look at the local BMW dealer, no one should be subject to these conditions. 
 

In reply to SV reX :

I wouldn't rule out working as a mechanic at a dealership, but based on everything I've heard from everyone who's done it (mostly IRL interactions), I think I'd only want to do it as a stepping stone to working somewhere better as soon as possible.

In reply to Driven5 :

Could be, I'll look into that

GameboyRMH said:

In reply to SV reX :

I wouldn't rule out working as a mechanic at a dealership, but based on everything I've heard from everyone who's done it (mostly IRL interactions), I think I'd only want to do it as a stepping stone to working somewhere better as soon as possible.

Make sure you have that attitude in the interview, it should help. 

In reply to Steve_Jones :

The prettiness of a workplace says approximately nothing about what it's like to work there. All of Amazon's workplaces are pretty and clean. The indie shop where I take my Toyobaru is rather dingy and scruffy, but I know it pays decent hourly rates and runs regular hours.

You make a lot of assumptions based on places you've never worked in.

A dirty, messy, disorganized shop is awful to work in. Clean, tidy shops are efficient.

The worst co-worker I had left a trail behind himself like a snail.

ShawnG said:

You make a lot of assumptions based on places you've never worked in.

 

First time reading this thread?

Steve_Jones said:

In reply to SV reX :

You're better off arguing with Frenchy about solar, at least there's a 1% chance he will listen. 
Dealership service is a horrible place to work. Look at the local BMW dealer, no one should be subject to these conditions. 

There's a guy on my local MTB group who works at a Mercedes dealer.  He seems to be the guy who gets all the really tough, non-obvious, elaborate stuff.  Not flat rate.  His shop is also spotless.

In reply to ShawnG :

In all fairness, it's a bit of a leap to get from 'dingy and scruffy' to 'messy and disorganized'. I think the point is that great lighting and bright unblemished paint on the walls, toolboxes, and lifts is more of a facade for the customers than a reflection of how employees are treated.

In reply to Driven5 :

That's fair.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

I've spent the last ten years working in dealerships. 18 different ones. Most of the mechanics who were working when I started 10 years ago are still at the same dealerships. 
 

Must be awful.