Frustrations with interviewing in this wild job market

Peabody said:

In reply to Indy - Guy :

but I've also wondered for a while if he's been having a little fun at your expense.

Canadians are far too polite to do that. 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

Peabody said:

In reply to Indy - Guy :

but I've also wondered for a while if he's been having a little fun at your expense.

Canadians are far too polite to do that. 

Take off you hoser.

DirtyBird222 said:

JThw8 said:

oh what the hell I'll chime in with my current state of the union address as a hiring manager in IT.  We've got jobs, lots of jobs.  I have had one or more open positions for the past two years.   

We've got candidates, piles of candidates, hell I've even told our T&A screeners to send me EVERYTHING, because I dont trust their screening.

What don't I have?   Qualified candidates.   Either due to skill level or more often due to attitude.   We have a very good team right now, to be a fit for the team you need to be a team player, a mentor if the role is at that level, and a skilled technician.   I cant tell you how many interviews went well from the tech side but the person's attitude was a definite no-go.   The few times we decided to take a chance on one of these candidates they never lasted more than two weeks.   

Some roles, we've even been willing to be light on the technical requirements since we have a very specific environment so you will be re-learning much of what you think you know anyway.  But if you come in with the attitude that you are gods gift, I dont even care if you are actually gods gift, you aren't part of our team.

Currently Im looking for a skilled Firewall technician in NC, hit me up if you know someone :)

I'll be the devils advocate here, is it a lack of qualified candidates or are you targeting unicorns and upset when you don't get someone who can be both a software developer while simultaneously running your efforts for FedRamp and writing/enforcing all NIST 800-53 controls and policies? 

That's the problem I saw with my terrible job hunt. This reqs would want people who could do everything and have certifications for everything too. Then they would want to pay as if it were someone with a junior level skillset. 

The IT world is phuked six ways from Sunday in how they recruit and retain talent with unloftly expectations and a total reliance on certifications as a premise for ability vs. experience. 

I got lucky and landed a job with a consulting firm that understands not everyone has every skillset; however, they are more than willing to pay you to get an education or experience in that field if they need you to work in it. Unheard of these days, and the CEO is a total car nut. 

There's stuff out there, you just have to spread your seed like a tree does with pollen, cover large swaths and the probability should go up for a match. 

It's a fair question but not the scenario here.  We aren't looking for magic unicorns who do everything, we are looking for specialists with specific skill sets (ie. Firewall engineers, network specialists, VMware specialists, etc)  The only "above and beyond" we hope to find is industry experience because things are unique here, however we understand it's unique and will train on the industry side if the skills are there.   Hell as an interviewer/hiring manager Im probably even easier to deal with because I give not one wet E36 M3 if you have a degree or not.  It's one of the reasons I dont let T&A screen my candidates, I want to see the folks who have been doing the work, not just someone with paperwork that makes HR types happy.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

Yeah, take off eh

In reply to Indy - Guy :

I'm sure I've spent less time posting in this thread, only part of which is complaining, than the collective time it took to write the two lowest-effort job applications out of the 140+ jobs I've applied to so far. I'm also not on welfare (funny enough, I looked into applying after I lost my last job in the fall of 2023 and saw that a record of job applications was required, but I wanted to try starting my own business in the new year and thought that if I applied to any basic jobs it would be hard to avoid getting one by accident at a time when I might not actually want to, so I abandoned that idea). Out of those jobs, there are 2-3 I'd consider "ones that got away." I've spent pretty much all of my free time since May searching for or applying for jobs. Why would someone who doesn't actually want a job go through all of that trouble? I could've spent that time watching movies and playing videogames instead. I hardly saw any movies or played any games apart from the GRM AC league races in 2024.

In reply to BoxheadTim :

The current "blip" in IT employment is actually objectively worse than the dot-bomb era or the GFC.

It sounds like we have similar educational backgrounds and lack of networking. I only started working a bit before the GFC.

I think I've done pretty well in the "git gud" department, but the skills don't make it any easier to get a job. I've won a few corporate awards, I put them on my resume, still only one interview for anything resembling a tech job out of the 50+ I've applied to, most of which I was fully qualified for. I think a big part of the problem is that a lot of my skills are no longer needed for anything below a systems/cloud architect type position, and since my previous positions are more like midlevel sysadmin (a very endangered job title as everything between cloud architect and the helldesk seems to be going the way of the dodo) I would look underqualified for that kind of work. Plus most of my experience is foreign, and employers here generally tend to disregard foreign experience for whatever reason.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Are there temp services in Canada? That's where I hire from. Pre-screened and if I don't  like them I drop them. Conversely if the salt mine ain't their gig no hard feelings. 

Some good news, out of nowhere I got a job offer for the motorsports job, despite only doing a 15min introductory interview. They want me to start in late March now while at the time of the interview I would've been starting some time in February, so it looks like they've had some delays. At least I've got that lined up now and can stop looking for basic jobs.

Considering the IT industry's instability and my age, I should probably stop applying for anything but the most desirable high-paying IT jobs, because that industry has been eating E36 M3 about once a decade pretty much since day one, with only a likely early-2010s crash averted by the introduction of smartphones. Pay should be good for me to opt into that kind of instability. If I look at my income from 2020 to the present, if I'd had a sustainable job with the kind of pay this motorsports job does, I would've made the same kind of money in total up to today and probably wouldn't have been stressed half to death for most of it.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Cool beans!  I would suspect you IT skills will still be useful in the new job in some way, they almost always are!  

I don't know what the language situation is, but certainly show willingness to push forward with that (e.g. learn some conversational phrases in the requested languages and come up with creative solutions).

The biggest step is always getting in the door of an industry.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Congratulations!

In reply to aircooled :

I figure my French could be brought up to a serviceable level without a crazy amount of work. Spanish too, but I think the likelihood of needing foreign languages on the job would be Chinese > French >>> German/Spanish.

OK ladies and gentleman, wall of text time. I need to vent and ask the collective for ideas. I’m in crisis.  This isn’t my usual login/screen name.  I created this account because I want to talk, without being obvious if a prospective employer Googles my name.  I think many will recognize my general style and things I’m talking about, and know who I am, that’s fine.  If someone has an issue, please drop me a DM.

I’m in crisis mode now.  I’ve been out of work for over a year, as someone who started working in middle school, and has worked for close to 40 years in total, I just can’t get my head around this.  I’ve tried, I’ve tried really hard.  I’ve applied for literally hundreds of jobs.  I started looking for positions similar too, or just above my last position.  In the year plus since then I’ve broadened my horizons further and further down.  I’m currently talking to a recruiter, basically saying “Yes I realize the position you have is about 40% of what I was earning, and lower in $$, let alone inflation, than I was earning 30 years ago, but I really am serious about wanting it.”  I don’t seem to be able to get anything.

I’m at the end of my rope, I’m depressed, miserable, and a horrible person to live with as I am so riddled with anxiety, worry, self doubt, zero temper etc.  My family don’t deserve this.

I have to find a job.  Obviously my industry (automotive engineer) is going through a lot of changes right now, and several big players are starting layoffs.  Two positions I was talking to people about this year have been pulled instead.  I need to do something.  I’m willing to relocate for a ‘real job’, I’ve applied for positions across the US, and some in Canada and the UK, so I’m not blinkered on location, but it would have to be a decent paying job to consider.  

I think I need to find something, anything.  I’ve done some handyman work for people we know, or my wife knows through her small business.  I’ve designed some business cards and am/is/was thinking of starting a handyman business.  My concern there is I’ve had back issues for years, surgery a decade ago, and I can end up on my back after a hard days work.  I’m concerned of the physical issues doing that ‘full time’ and health insurance is already costing a mind bending amount from savings each month.

Things I’ve considered.  Home Depot, Lowe’s, Trader Joe’s, Costco.  Some kind of retail work.  The pay is abysmal, $10-25/hr but it would have health insurance.  One of my big concerns, and one of the reasons I am using this account, is I use marijuana.  I’ve had, and could easily get again, a medical card, but haven’t bothered for a few years since recreational is legal here.  I’m worried that I wouldn’t pass a hiring drug test. Note.  I get it some people label anyone who uses pot as a lazy suck on society who doesn’t deserve a job.  That’s your opinion, fine, but it doesn’t impact my working.  I started for pain relief  (safer and more effective than opioids I was prescribed), but use it for other reasons, not just ‘getting high’.  Does anyone have any experience with situations like this?

The other thing I’m thinking of is UBER/LYFT.  My primary car is 10 years old, and they seem to want it 15 years or less, so that’s OK.  But again, you hear stories of people really only earning $10/hr, but then there are people saying they can pull down $25/hr at surge times downtown or airport runs.

So, retail or ride share.  I’m not sure what else.  Any suggestions for a middle age engineer who just can’t find anything?

Any obvious career paths?  

Not teaching.  A couple of people I know have suggested it, but a couple of issues.  First, my character is not suited to kids in a classroom environment, I don’t have the temperament, I’d be the teacher kicked out for yelling at the kids and giveing them all three weeks detention for not being quiet.  Also, we have lots of teacher friends.  Every single one has either quit, or is leaving within 2-3 years.  The profession has been so maligned, under paid, and abused, everyone is looking to quit.

I’ve looked into a couple of different online positions, basically as a subject matter expert, but they haven’t panned out.  I did get one position, but after making it clear to the company what my expertise was, and them assuring me that’s what the client needed, five mins into the call with potential client, it became clear it wasn’t a match so we all said thank you for your time and moved on.  Effectively it was as if I have very very precise information on the making, marketing and selling of key lime pies, but they needed knowledge about lemon meringue pies, so that was the end of that.  I was pissed as I had the lemon/lime conversation with the recruiting company prior and stressed the differences.

So I’m looking for advice and suggestions.  I’m mentally exhausted and wrung out.  I’m doubting everything about myself.  While everyone knows what you do doesn’t define who you are, it’s a real mind berkeley. Having been moderately successful, reaching positions and a place in life I never ever expected, but then to not only lose that position, but unable to find a position even 30 years back down the ladder, is hard.  I want and need to do something, but I feel stuck and have run out of ideas.

Thanks for listening as I shout into the void.

Out of everything you listed I'd start a handyman business. The one we've used in the past is so busy now he's got a crew and you've got to tell him if you want the "A crew, B crew, etc". The A crew bills out at $150/hour, B crew at $100/hour, so on.  There's a huge demand for it and if it's anything like that near you, you'd be able to pick and choose the jobs you take so you could protect your back.  Ie, don't take the job that's moving a metric ton of landscaping rock. 

Speaking of landscaping, even my landscaper charges a ton of money for yard clean up, mowing, etc.  So that's something to look into, along with snow removal in the winter time. 

You're complaining about anxiety and depression but you're continuing to put chemicals into your system that affect how your mind works. Maybe stop doing that for a couple months and see if you feel better. Take this advice or don't.

Parts counter guy maybe? Not in a auto-zone type place but somewhere that deals with more professionals than home gamers? Somewhere that a really, really good parts chaser would be appreciated?

How's the collector car market where you are? Some folks appreciate having a fixer for their hobby. I have a client who keeps me busy because he loves his vintage cars but doesn't want to be involved fixing or maintaining them. I provide a service where I just show up and make all his problems go away. All he has to do is turn the key and rarely put gas in. 

Or, take your own "fun" car and go explore where you live. Find a nice route, nice places to stop and start an adventure tour business for car or motorcycle guys. Lots of folks don't even know what's in their own back yard.

Another business I've thought of which would work if you have tourists and nice scenery would be a motorcycle sidecar tour business. Most folks don't know a Ural from a real vintage motorcycle. Provide an experience for a couple. One in the sidecar and one in the back. No juggernauts though.

My neighbor runs a tidy business parting out snowmobiles. What I've learned in the last year is that people won't spend money fixing their daily drive but they will spend stupid money on their toys. This is why Harley Davidson will finance literally anyone. They know guys would rather miss their mortgage payment than their Harley payment.

I don't think I can work for someone else anymore. I just wouldn't be a good employee. It's tough as hell and we've been eating the weenie the last couple months but stuff will pick up and get better.

In reply to NeedaJob :

You said something that I think should be addressed.

While everyone knows what you do doesn’t define who you are, it’s a real mind berkeley.

This is one of those things that I've heard repeated over and over again and I challenge its validity.  There is a grain of truth in there, of course.  At a very surface level, it's completely true - an automotive engineer can also be loving husband or a caring mother and taking away that job doesn't mean that your entire personality and worth is removed.  But who you are manifests in what you do and how you do it.  Think back to when you were working and how you approached your job versus how you approached anything else in life.  Unless you were working on the severed floor, your "work personality" was probably not altogether indistinguishable from your "home personality".   Who you are is completely is completely irrelevant unless you can express that through your actions.  You're a well-educated, intelligent, and creative engineer but when you aren't able to demonstrate that, no one knows it.  Even you.  That phrase isn't technically incorrect, but when you try to tell yourself that just because you don't have work right now you still have all those great qualities is hard to believe.  And it's very frustrating because even internally you know how awesome you are but you don't have a chance for anyone - including yourself - to actually see it.  Imagine if you had actually seen Bigfoot or Nessie with your own two eyes.  How frustrated would you be when you discovered that your thumb was over the lens and you don't have any pictures to prove to people that you saw it?  After a while, you might even begin to doubt yourself.

Don't try to fight against that.  You need to realize that a big part of what you're experiencing is that there's a thumb over the lens right now and you need to remind yourself, through actions, of your own worth.  By trying to tell yourself that it doesn't matter, you're only going to become more frustrated because you know at some level in your psyche that it really does matter.  We also are basically hard-wired to believe that work is what makes us a productive member of society.  I'm not here to argue that it's right, wrong, or indifferent, but just wishing that it wasn't that way doesn't make it so.  You're sitting there thinking that because you aren't doing work you're not contributing to society and thus your worth is going down.  Again, fighting against that feeling by trying to tell yourself that it shouldn't matter is only going to make you feel more frustrated with yourself.  So take it for what it is and accept it:  You feel like a failure because you're not contributing to society and your family because you're not working.  I know only the barest taste of that feeling because I'm only wrapping up my second week of unemployment right now.

Please notice that I did not say that you are a failure.  Just that you feel like one.  We need to deal with reality here, not wishcasting.  Like any complex system, we can't make it better until we know what the failure mode is.  And it's a bit of a recursive problem: you'd feel better about yourself if you could get a job which would be made a little easier if you'd feel better about yourself.  Not that once you're smiling and happy again that some dream job is going to just fall out of the sky.  But right now you aren't in the state of mind to be able to really think and act clearly.  Maybe the right automotive engineering job is right around the corner.  Maybe you'll never work in that industry again but there's something else that you'd be good at and enjoy.  You won't see either when your focus is on feeling like you've failed.

So go and do.  Forget about the money for the moment.  That's important, yes.  But right now the money is zero so as long as it isn't costing you anything, it doesn't matter.  And, actually, maybe even if it does cost you something it's worth it.  No matter where you are, I'm sure that there's some organization that you can get behind that could use some volunteer help.  Soup kitchens, shelters, schools, churches, libraries.  There's all manner of places that help people that need help from people.  Don't like people?  Animal shelters and rescue groups are always looking for volunteers.  Not sure where you are, but Habitat for Humanity can usually use some help from a guy that can swing a hammer when it's building weather.  The point of this is simply to get you in a position where you can leave the house, do a thing, come home, and see that you did a thing.  And know that the other people that were there also saw you do a thing and said "thank you!".  It doesn't put bread on your table, but it's a really good paycheck, nonetheless.  You'll do that for a really short time before you start to get past that feeling of worthlessness.  Because you aren't worthless.  You just feel worthless.  And, sure, what you do isn't who you are.  But what you do is how you manifest to the world and to yourself who you are.  And you'll be doing.

Anyway, that's my philosophy.  Take it or leave it - it may not work for you, but it's what's kept me going throughout my life.  I really feel for you.  Right now I'm on this roller coaster where I have so much hope at some of the possibilities and then things go quiet and I start to despair a bit.  I keep trying to remind myself that this is like watching a movie where I know they've already made a sequel so the guy isn't going to die - I just don't know how he's going to get out of it.  It has to be really tough to have been riding that coaster for as long as you have and I'm guessing that there aren't very many uphills for your lately.

On the practical advice front...  I used to work with a gentleman who took a voluntary separation and retired early.  He also started a handyman business and claims to have more business than he can handle.  From what he told me, he doesn't do anything that requires a ladder - it's stuff like hanging TVs on walls and doing minor repairs.  He befriended a local realtor or two and when they have a post-inspection punch list on a house, they'll refer their clients to him.  So there might be more of a market for non-back-breaking handyman work than you think, if you want to make that at least a temporary career.  I also know a gentleman from my parish who is retired and drives Uber/Lyft just for something to do.  I don't know what kind of money he makes - I don't think it's a ton - but it is a thing to do and it gives you a chance to interact with people a bit, which can be nice.

I would at least quit smoking pot long enough to pass an employment screening.  (Crazy I even have to suggest this?!?).  Most professional places you just gotta pass once unless you get hurt.  Being baked 24-7 is definitely not helping getting a job and definitely limiting your pool of employers.  

I have no idea if it's applicable in this situation, however, one of my favorite Orwell quotes is why I'm being careful not to drink very much right now:

A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks.

I guess just make sure the medicine is to help with the physical pain, right?

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Congrats on the motorsports job! That's great news.

In reply to NeedaJob :

Out of the options you mentioned, I would lean towards the handyman business more than the "rideshare". Uber/Lyft has struck me as "taxi driving for people who are bad at math" as it generally doesn't pay that well on average as my understanding is that you can't just drive during surge times, and once you factor in wear and tear on the car plus the extra insurance cost and all that, it's not a good mathing thing.

So I'd suggest handyman, but make it professional. IOW, make your appearance, cleanliness and punctuality part of the spiel. Tell a customer that they're welcome to pay the competition $10/h less to show up between 8am and 9:30pm, or they can pay your rate and you'll be there at 10:15am on the dot. Become the Toyman of handywork in your area. I'd happily pay for someone like that who's reliable and does good work.

One story about putting a different spin on a trade that stuck with me was a plumbing company in London back in the early aughts. Plumbers in the UK generally a very hard to come by, don't always do their best work and, shall we say, their appearance generally doesn't exactly match their bank accounts either. The owner of the company turned that on its head, the people doing the estimates showed up in shirt & tie, the plumbers doing the work showed up on time, were well dressed (no plumbers' cracks in sight), did a high quality job and left the place as clean or better than it was beforehand. Within a year or so, they turned away more business than they actually took on.

Another option - you're an automotive engineer. I assume that there are systems in a vehicle that you know really really deeply with a capability that will exceed most experienced mechanic's capability. How about becoming the go-to person for diagnostics for those systems that a shop can call when they're stumped? There seem to be a few people making a decent living doing this type of diagnostic work over in Europe.

Third, as ShawnG suggests, is there any specific work on the toy side that you can do well and that's in a niche that doesn't have a lot of people competing for business but a reasonable amount of demand?

Frankly, I'd be tempted to try several of these businesses, because there isn't going to be a lot of overlap in the clientele (diversification is good) and you can use the work from one to fill time gaps in one of the other businesses. Slow afternoon in the handyman business and you're waiting for that Weber carb to come in for a rebuild? Drive for Uber or Lyft for a few hours.

About the "spin" thing Boxhead was mentioning...

There's a memorable window cleaning business that sets themselves apart: https://www.meninkilts.com/

BoxheadTim said:

In reply to NeedaJob :

Another option - you're an automotive engineer. I assume that there are systems in a vehicle that you know really really deeply with a capability that will exceed most experienced mechanic's capability. How about becoming the go-to person for diagnostics for those systems that a shop can call when they're stumped? There seem to be a few people making a decent living doing this type of diagnostic work over in Europe.

 

This could be quite lucrative depending on the type of engineering - Chassis engineering, NVH, lighting, interior/ergonomics - well - there isnt much need for that at a repair shop. 

Electrical?  Break out your scope and your scan tool and giddyup!   Especially if your experience is for a luxury brand like Porsche, Audi, or Mercedes.  less if its for one of the Big 3.   

In reply to NeedaJob :

I'm really sorry to hear how you are struggling with this. 
 

I am completely unqualified to speak on the majority of your questions, but there are a couple things I know a little about. 
 

Handyman business is an exceptional business in almost all locations. Return phone calls and business will explode.  One of the keys in being successful in this is to draw STRONG limits to the services you offer. Don't be the guy who says "No job too small, I do it all". Avoid larger jobs, heavy lifting, permitted work, etc. Have a list of about 30 simple items you do and stick to it. Assemble furniture, change hardware, hang pictures, etc. People really will pay $100  for you to change a few light bulbs. 
 

However, there is a caveat..  Pot smoking may put you out of business quickly. A modern handyman business is HEAVILY dependent on social media referrals. The first time an owner gets online and says, "He did a good job, but he was stinkin of pot" your business is done. It doesn't matter if recreational use is legal where you live. Women aren't interested in inviting a pot smoker into their home to do work.

Its an issue. I respect your right to use recreationally (I've been known to as well), but that doesn't open doors with employers. If there are 5 candidates and they can eliminate you because of your recreational use, it makes the job much easier for them.  

My company has random screenings, so I avoid it. The stuff stays in your system too long.  Whether it is legal or not is a non-issue.  Insurance providers will drop employers if they keep people on their payroll who test positive.  That could put a company out of business. They aren't gonna take the chance.
 

I know a lot of people use responsibly, but it really does show in the work environment (and some coworkers won't appreciate it at all).   Consider it.

I hope things turn for you soon!

In reply to NeedaJob :

I know a lot of people in aerospace engineering that came from automotive.  Are you applying to those jobs?

I don't have great advice for the weed usage.  Its a non-starter in the aerospace world.  You'd probably only be tested at hiring, but you never know.  I've had hiring drug tests for >20 years now, but I've never once been tested outside of that.  I think a temporary break from it during the job search is wise.

I will admit that searching for jobs as an engineer is daunting because the way the positions are written are very vague, yet employers are often looking for something very specific.  Although my degree is in "Mechanical Engineering", a job with that title has very little to do with it, and is really more of a Civil Engineering type job.  In fact a good chunk of jobs with that title do not require an engineering degree.

RE: Uber

I tend to agree with Air that it is taxi driving for people who are bad at math.  However, it does have a couple things going for it:  Near-zero effort to get started, and work whenever you want.  You can use it as filler work.

I'll be honest I have been more and more intrigued by it lately for exactly that reason.  I'm getting tired of the 8-5 bullE36 M3.

SV reX said:

In reply to NeedaJob :

Handyman business is an exceptional business in almost all locations. Return phone calls and business will explode.  One of the keys in being successful in this is to draw STRONG limits to the services you offer. Don't be the guy who says "No job too small, I do it all". Avoid larger jobs, heavy lifting, permitted work, etc. Have a list of about 30 simple items you do and stick to it. Assemble furniture, change hardware, hang pictures, etc. People really will pay $100  for you to change a few light bulbs. 

On this note, as a homeowner until recently, a handman service that is flat rate where I could just say "please put me on the schedule in the next 2 weeks and take care of x,y,z. and bill me at the agreed rate.  Call me if you anticipate any given task exceeding x hours" would be an absolute dream.  I tried to convince my friend to start a business like this.

Most handymen and companies want to quote every single job and small ones are not worth their time.

In reply to TravisTheHuman :

The money is definitely in the small jobs.