Galloping Ghost crash NTSB investigation results

yamaha wrote: In reply to aircooled: With the a10's stationed in Ft Wayne, like clockwork at 9am, a group or 2-4 will make mock attack runs on our farm buildings.....one morning as I was getting ready to head to work one made a run and a banking turn right over my house under 500ft.....I waved as I could see the pilot clearly....he circled back around and gave a waggle of the wings. Those planes have the roar to them only when close and the shrill shreaking of the fanjets as they pass........such a beautiful noise. Much better than the f16's that used to be in ft wayne

I used to live out in the boonies on the Eastern Shore of Maryland, and we would get the same thing with A-10s flying a very tight, very low crisscross pattern over our outbuildings. I know exactly the noise and thrill you're talking about - I remember looking up and effectively seeing the top view of an A-10 in a vertical bank about 250 feet up.

I had an insane dog at the time, and she would chase them and bark. As soon as the pilots figured that out, they would lead her on an extra lap or two around the property.

Duke wrote:

yamaha wrote: In reply to aircooled: With the a10's stationed in Ft Wayne, like clockwork at 9am, a group or 2-4 will make mock attack runs on our farm buildings.....one morning as I was getting ready to head to work one made a run and a banking turn right over my house under 500ft.....I waved as I could see the pilot clearly....he circled back around and gave a waggle of the wings. Those planes have the roar to them only when close and the shrill shreaking of the fanjets as they pass........such a beautiful noise. Much better than the f16's that used to be in ft wayne

I used to live out in the boonies on the Eastern Shore of Maryland, and we would get the same thing with A-10s flying a very tight, very low crisscross pattern over our outbuildings. I know exactly the noise and thrill you're talking about - I remember looking up and effectively seeing the top view of an A-10 in a vertical bank about 250 feet up. I had an insane dog at the time, and she would chase them and bark. As soon as the pilots figured that out, they would lead her on an extra lap or two around the property.

My friend Jim has a farm 12-15 miles north of the Battle Creek MI airport. The A-10 units based there fly at low level over his place. One day he was on his tractor in the middle of a field when he sees an A-10 coming straight at him. Jim stood up waving with both arms. The pilot did a barrel roll passing directly over Jim inverted and gave Jim a salute. Jim was ready to drive to the base with a pickup truck full of beer for the pilots, but decided that would probably draw undue attention to the the aerobatics.

While I understand the risk of driving, riding bicycles on roads, and riding motorcycle without all the gear, I also realize that for the most part I'm prepared to deal with consquences, as are others involved.

What worries me about air race accidents, as extremely rare as they are, is that people may forget not only how bad things could end up for them, but also for their kids, and for the pilots. I personally wouldn't want my kid to witness a plane a crash.

Just seems like the first step to a better and more fun environment is better planning of courses and spectator areas.

I think we went from an airplane crash killing people to stories about awesome pilots and cool planes.

A10s at the range. I like how you can hear the gun firing and the rounds impacting. Really cool video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwC0irAbYdk

PHeller wrote: While I understand the risk of driving, riding bicycles on roads, and riding motorcycle without all the gear, I also realize that for the most part I'm prepared to deal with consquences, as are others involved. What worries me about air race accidents, as extremely rare as they are, is that people may forget not only how bad things could end up for them, but also for their kids, and for the pilots. I personally wouldn't want my kid to witness a plane a crash. Just seems like the first step to a better and more fun environment is better planning of courses and spectator areas. I think we went from an airplane crash killing people to stories about awesome pilots and cool planes.

Go see a Red Bull Air Race. It is good flying. I do not think it is anything like unlimited racing, but it is safer. I would sit right next to the runway at the unlimited races. I accept the fact that I may die for my decision to sit there.

PHeller wrote: What worries me about air race accidents, as extremely rare as they are, is that people may forget not only how bad things could end up for them, but also for their kids, and for the pilots. I personally wouldn't want my kid to witness a plane a crash. Just seems like the first step to a better and more fun environment is better planning of courses and spectator areas. I think we went from an airplane crash killing people to stories about awesome pilots and cool planes.

Three points, one for each section of your quote.......

1.) thats right, people get complacent and forget it is a dangerous sport....because very rarely do bad things happen. That is their own fault for not being aware of their surroundings.

2.) I think they do a fine job of planning spectator areas.....the only reason people go to an airshow or air race is the noise and thrill of being "buzzed"

3.) Yes it is a thread jack, because we're all tired of your "We must protect the people from themselves" mentality

Those points added.......is there an airshow this weekend somewhere in the midwest? Saw a BUFF and kc135 heading towards chicago this morning.

pilotbraden wrote: Go see a Red Bull Air Race. It is good flying. I do not think it is anything like unlimited racing, but it is safer. I would sit right next to the runway at the unlimited races. I accept the fact that I may die for my decision to sit there.

As would I, as would many. An interesting fact is that of the people killed during the GG crash, at least a few of those involved did not sue because they accept the risk that was involved. Personally, I would MUCH rather be killed by a race plane then some idiot on the freeway.

Small note: Last I saw they were postponing the current Reb Bull Air Race season to review safety concerns. Certainly less potential for spectator death in RBAR, but might be more dangerous to participants.

I suspect the primary concern for the safety review is the incident where one racer skipped off the water (and other close calls). I can't look for a link to the video of the above incident right now, but it is pretty wild.

This whole subject was covered ad nauseam in the thread about the PPIHC crash and the cage's 'failure'. It comes down to this: if you (the royal 'you') are going to push the limits of something, it's impossible to be able to predict every possible situation or outcome. It is unpossible to build a cage/wing/any type of safety or performance gear that will handle any possible scenario.

There is danger and uncertainty in every endeavor. Toyman mentioned RC planes; I once saw a guy get hit in the leg by a carbon fiber 1/10 scale offroad buggy and it caused a greenstick fracture of the small bone in his leg.

So it comes down to the assumption of risk. It's what the purpose of a waiver is, to outline that assumption. Unfortunately, greed has pretty well destroyed any semblance of personal responsibility in such a situation. The air show group has put aside what, $77 million? as a fund for those injured but that just won't be enough for some people. They have to have enough to buy that huge mansion to assauge their grief. Sorry to sound so cynical, uh on second thought no I am not.

They signed the damn waiver, the air show group is ponying up cash to help (even though they should be off the hook due to those waivers) but that's just not enough.

Hell, there are lawsuits for LIGHTNING STRIKES. http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Lawsuit-Filed-in-Lighting-Strike-Death-146123525.html

The most telling part of that story: it was the FIRST LIGHTNING STRIKE from that storm.

I think there are two separate issues here.

One is whether spectators are assuming risk by being there (IMHO they are, though they should certainly be made aware of that specifically; this ain't Disneyland you're hanging out in. In an attempt to pay the bills, promoters tend to be more interested in selling the sizzle than noting the dangers; they need people who are clueless about air racing to become interested enough to show up. That, BTW, is how we eventually get more people who do have clues).

The other is the extent to which the racers can be relied upon to make the right decisions regarding safety when they've got a ton of time and money and ego tied up in a given race.

There will always be risk in watching air races in person. It will generally be much safer than driving to and from the event. The primary obligation of the sanctioning body, IMHO, isn't trying to make everything better with payoffs when it goes wrong, it's making sure that nothing readily avoidable goes wrong. Pushing a plane significantly faster in a race than its ever gone in testing, while running several modifications which should have been formally inspected but only one of which was submitted to the FAA... that's sounding avoidable.

There simply isn't enough data to be 100% certain, but it's easy to imagine this being the result of some combination of famliarity-breeds-complacency and Chuck-Yeager-wannabe-don't-give-a-berkeley.

I'm sure we've all seen (or been) examples of generally intelligent, reasonable, careful people who do stupid E36 M3 when the red mist hits, and it sounds like that may be what happened here. (Edit: MAY. I want to emphasize that. I really, really don't know that this is the case.)

Living long enough to know better sometimes leads people to thinking that they know better than they actually do...