Geared Hubs for Bicycles

Ok, so I'd kind of like to have a bicycle, but I hatehatehate derailers. If derailers were clintons I'd be Dr. Hess. So as you can imagine, this has put quite a damper on any prospective bicycle...until, that is, I heard of some of those internally geared hubs...this could be the solution to my dilemma!

So, what I really want to know is, has anyone ever seen/used/encountered/heard of these things? I wouldn't be afraid of building a bicycle over the winter for use in the spring, and a shimano 7 speed geared hub and shifter I could probably score for under 200 bucks, put it on an old mountain frame, and have a nice, low maintenance bike without a derailer...something I might actuall ride!

I know GRM is a vast font of knowledge...can anyone shed some light for me?

Go direct-drive. www.sheldonbrown.org

Yeah, I've already read everything sheldon has to say about geared hubs...he seems to like them alright, but I'd like to get a GRM opinion.

What do you hate about derailleurs?

Sounds like you know what to do. I've heard very good things about the Shimano 7-speed hubs, and I've always liked the Sturmey-Archer 3 speed units. Dead reliable, simple maintenance. They're certainly cooler than derailers.

Plus, you'll have a wayyy more usable bike than those fixie nuts.

bastomatic wrote: Plus, you'll have a wayyy more usable bike than those fixie nuts.

exactly. I have a friend, who every time we talk about this just says "Get a fixed gear."

No, dammit. #1: Fixed gears are stupid, #2: I don't feel like exhausting myself at every hill. It seems to me that a geared hub (IF they're all they're cracked up to be) gives all the maintenance and simplicity benefits of a fixed gear along with all the usability of being, you know, actually able to shift, with none of the drawbacks of either a fixed (or single speed) or dérailleur.

EastCoast Mojo wrote: What do you hate about derailleurs?

You mean besides the fact that they're dirty, difficult to use, difficult to maintain, fragile, complex, have to be moving to shift, never shift right, offer "unusable" gear combos, and are french...well, nothing I guess.

Seriously. Maybe I'm bicycle retarded, but I've never had any luck with a bike with a dérailleur. I'm always in the wrong gear, skipping a gear, hunting for a gear, stopped in the wrong gear, or throwing my chain straight off. I've heard everything from "You don't know how to work it right" to "You ride cheap E36 M3" but I've basically come to the conclusion that dérailleurs are the devil, and I hate them.

I see. Well, I could argue that they are only as dirty as you let them get, fragile if you like to whack them into things, complex/difficult to use only if you don't know how to count, and will never shift right if they are not aligned and adjusted right to begin with, but I'm not going to do that. And, technically, it's those pesky cogs and chainrings that offer the unusable gear combos, but they are a necessary evil to get the most out of the range of gears, unless you would like to spend a lot more to get an internally geared hub, that is.

Now, I don't dislike internally geared hubs at all, unless I have to work on one. And if you think a derailleur is complex then one of these babies will surely be a sign of the apocalypse if you were to look inside. So, I highly recommend that you don't, however, that's what bicycle mechanics are for. Luckily, they are pretty reliable so you may never have to have one opened up for service.

Another thing to consider when making your decision is the convenience of changing the rear wheel when you have a flat. A bike with a derailleur usually has a quick release, so you will not need the wrenches required to remove the nutted internally geared wheel. Also, you don't have to adjust the rear derailleur when you take the wheel out and put it back in, but an internally geared hub has a cable that will have to be reattached and subsequently adjusted every time you perform this task. A moderate pain in the ass if you don't want to futz with the bike any more than you absolutely have to.

If you are still considering an internally geared hub, consider that what you would pay for one would buy you a damn nice derailleur that may work better than the one you have now, as well as buy you a professional tune up and a chain cleaning gadget too.

Generally, there's nothing wrong with Nexus hubs... and for what it sounds like you want a bike, one would work well. The tend to get a bad rap for a couple of reasons. One- they're heavier than a standard set-up, two - while there's no duplicate ratios, they still don't give the same range of ratios, and three - they tend to break under harsh conditions.

I came from DH racing, where the weight and ratio issue is less of a concern, but that "breaking" problem was the killer. A couple of frame builders even designed frames around them so the hub wasn't under such direct stress. However, they were still problematic and only more recently have other options to the tried-and-true derailleur started to surface... to mixed results so far.

Another issue I remember about them was mechanical efficiency. I forget the exact details, but I seem remember studies where the internally geared hubs measured a certain amount of power loss compared to a derailleur system.

EastCoastMojo wrote: If you are still considering an internally geared hub, consider that what you would pay for one would buy you a damn nice derailleur that may work better than the one you have now, as well as buy you a professional tune up and a chain cleaning gadget too.

You're probably right. But it's more than just that. I don't like the way derailleurs work. I don't like how they operate, and maybe I can't count, I dunno. You're right, I could probably buy a super nice derailleur for what I'll spend on a geared hub, but you can't put a price on cool.

Also, as far as the rear wheel thing goes, you're right there too...but I don't really see it being a huge deal. I wouldn't mind carrying a small toolkit with me, and I doubt I'll ever be too terribly far from shelter. And as far as working on them goes, hell...it's just as you say: That's what bike shops are for. :)

I hear what you are saying, and I have to suggest that perhaps you have not truly experienced a derailleur that did work. And, there's more to it than just carrying wrenches to take the nuts off, you will be adjusting chain and cable tension every time too. Small things, yes, but there's no shortcut around them either, or you will have the same issues you are complaining about with derailleurs.

And, you most definately can put a price on cool, that's why the cool E36 M3 is so damn expensive LOL You can't put a price limit on cool.

Ian F wrote: Generally, there's nothing wrong with Nexus hubs... and for what it sounds like you want a bike, one would work well. The tend to get a bad rap for a couple of reasons. One- they're heavier than a standard set-up, two - while there's no duplicate ratios, they still don't give the same range of ratios, and three - they tend to break under harsh conditions.

None of that bothers me. I won't be putting it into any abusive conditions (worst would be sidewalk --> gravel) I don't care about the weight, I don't care about the ratio range or efficiency because I have big powerful legs.

East Cost Mojo I hear what you are saying, and I have to suggest that perhaps you have not truly experienced a derailleur that did work.

You're probably right. All the same, I'd like to try this anyway.

I've ridden a bide with geared hubs. I'm going to switch my Gary Fisher over a.s.a.p.! These things are amazing. when you select the next gear you don't have that 1/2 to 1 revolution of the crankset before the gear engages, it's right now. Maybe 1/16th or a revolution. Amazing! If you are at a stop and you want to select a gear 2 or 3 positions away from where you are now? No problem Dial it in and it's there when you are ready to go. I do know how to keep derail-things adjusted right and after riding a gear-in-hub bike, I'm sold.

I've also heard the pedal engagement isn't as quick as a normal cassette hub, but that probably wouldn't be much of an issue unless you're really into technical riding.

There was an article about them in one of the Brittish MTB mags this spring. One of the frame builders over there had built up his own personal "mud bike" with one & it performed so well he started selling bikes with the Nexus hub installed.

You're probably right. All the same, I'd like to try this anyway.

Certainly, I can understand that. I would recommend a Shimano over pretty much anything else.

As a bike geek, I think derailleurs offer a lot, but that ground has already been covered, so....

Sturmey Archer are affordable and fairly basic. They offer a gear range better than a single speed, but it is still fairly limited. Parts and knowledge about them is widespread. They tend to last a long time, but aren't made with high technology or the best in metallurgy or finish. Think air-cooled Beetle.

Shimano Nexus offer great bang for the buck, decent gear range, and reasonable durability. They do need periodic service, and they can break under abuse. They are designed for recreational riders and not for day-in-day-out high-mileage, hard-pedaling use for years on end with no service. Think commuter car from the late-80's or early-90's...they work pretty well and are great for the money, but an idiot can still break one or blow it up.

Shimano Alfine is a higher-end, more durable, and higher priced. It used to be European-market only but is now available Stateside. Think Lexus in terms of refinement, reliability, and price.

Rohloff makes geared hubs which are lightweight for what they are, high priced, and with a massive gear range (rivalling or equalling other geared bikes) but with a funky double cable push-pull system and...interesting shift feel. Think Exige or Ferrari Challenge Stradale or something like that.

My 2 cents, hope that helps.

You said no fixie, what about just a singlespeed? You can still coast and you have the pedaling efficiency of a singlespeed.

He covered the single speed in his second post. Hills.

I would like to try the nexus hub on my next mtb build, a bit pricy imo, the hub rim and shifter might cost more than the rest of the bike, but might be worth it in the long run. As for derailures, not all are created equal, and niether are shifter levers. A good shimano rapid fire shifter mated to a good shimano deore or sr suntour xcm rear derailure with good quality cables will make even a bike from Target shift good. I picked up the afore mentioned upgrades on ebay for less than half of what I paid for the bike.

HappyAndy wrote: As for derailures, not all are created equal, and niether are shifter levers. A good shimano rapid fire shifter mated to a good shimano deore or sr suntour xcm rear derailure with good quality cables will make even a bike from Target shift good. I picked up the afore mentioned upgrades on ebay for less than half of what I paid for the bike.

That's exactly what I have on my bike and it shifts great. Shifts are very fast and smooth, no complaints from me.

So, if I were going to build a MTB with an internaly geared hub (which I am) what type of crank would be the best bet? I don't need a three ring mtb crank, or even a two ring crank because I don't think that I will need a rock ring for where I plan to ride. However I would like to be able to change the crank sprocket size to fine tune the gear ratios and be able to quickly replace a worn or damaged front sprocket. BMX crank? I guess that a three piece bmx crank could be easily adapted to the mtb frame by just picking the right bottom bracket set, or could a one piece bmx crank be a viable alternative? I've tinkered with bikes since forever, but this is my first from scrstch build, so I am learning a lot.

I would still run a mtb crank that was designed for three rings and just run one ring on it. Most three-ring mtb cranks will allow you to change out the chainring size to fine tune your gearing, so I don't see the need to go with a BMX crank.

Compatability and fit issues with some BMX cranks are just going to open up a can of worms that you may regret later.

If derailers were clintons I'd be Dr. Hess.

Just wanted to make sure everyone caught that. Thank you.

the problems i read about most of them are that most aren't rated for off road use... i know of people who use them as such though... it seems those who like them most are ones who deal with lots of mud and nasties... or people who just want it to work all the time but want more then one gear (nothings more reliable then a SS or fixie lol)

another problem is that most of them aren't sized properly to fit a MTB's 135mm spacing... you can get them on there but i never paid that much attentention... if i want a single chain i'll go SS... and i've had very good luck with SRAM shifting bits :)

donalson wrote: ... it seems those who like them most ... or people who just want it to work all the time

who doesn't that include?

I've never met anyone who didn't want it to work all the time.