Getting talked down to....

I am not a person with a lot of pride, no problems here with being put in my place when I'm wrong. But as I write this I have won my battle today.

My pizza beater got a flat the day before Thanksgiving so I needed to get it repaired. I figure while I'm at it the $500 miata could use an alignment. While at the counter talking to the sales guy, I ask if they can do the alignment to spec, to which he replies only factory spec. My reply is while I don't know the factory specs I do know there is some tolerance allowed, could he have his people set it to the maximum caster and camber allowed and the minimum toe within factory specs. His response is that everything is supposed to be 0, at which point I get a puzzled look and reply can I see the specs your computer has. He digs around for a minute and finds them. Low and behold nothing is zero and there are tolerances. At this point I've won and say that I would like everything set to these exact settings and hand over my key.

It is just really annoying when you are being told you are wrong by someone who doesn't have the slightest clue what they are talking about. End of rant.

Yeah well "exact settings" mean different things to them than they do to you. I paid a Tire Kingdom to do a specific alignment on my Miata. They were kind enough to ask me to come look at what the machine said to make sure I was happy. The machine is happy with a window of adjustment around what you enter which the guy kept telling me was "exactly" what I wanted.

"...everything is set to zero" probably means something to you that it doesn't mean to the guy behind the counter at a tire store. The tire store guy probably meant "we ONLY use the factory specs, zero deviations".

That's when I walk out of the store and go some where else. I had alignments for life on my last car and that tech hated me, but he did it my way.

As someone who Does know which orifice is the hole in the ground and also someone who works in the environment you are describing I will ask you to think about this story:

A man walks up to my service counter and exclaims "My diesel is not running right, what will it cost to fix it?"

Me "1.2 billion dollars, but I am certain I can reduce that with a coupon."

Dude "Funny!"

Me "Only on Monday. What's going on?"

Dude "I had a timing tensioner and injection pump put on and it runs really bad."

Me "$85.00 per hour, 4 hours diag time minimum"

Dude complete with duh face "Woah. Jees. Well I guess so. When can I get it back?"

Me "Since we are booking appointments for two weeks for monday I will cautiously say a week"

Dude with bigger duh and even bigger pissed look on his face "You mean I can't have it back tonight?"

Me "Nope"

Dude "Sigh, allright."

Three days later an early Rabbit truck enters the shop in awesome condition running like ass, the tech pops the hood, not only does it have a 1.9L engine in it but a hillbilly turbo kit complete with PVC filter pipe and 2" rectangular tubing exhaust manifold and all kinds of freshly replaced crap. Most important the flywheel is on wrong and there is no timing mark to time the injection pump...

Me to dude "What was replaced on your truck?"

Dude "We put an early head on a TDi block, built a turbo manifold, put a rebuilt modified injection pump and all that stuff to it."

Me "We HAVE to know these things"

Dude "I don't see why"

Me "Right, I need to pull the transmission to reclock the flywheel so we can see if the injection pump is properly timed. You have at least two injection lines running to the wrong injectors. And I think someone may have forgot to mention that the turbo engine likely does not like the OE 1.5" exhaust, you might want to rethink that."

Dude "How much to set the timing?"

Me "$950.00"

Dude "Why so much?"

Me "I don't think I understand your question."

You see sometimes service professionals get tire of customers that know more about their car than we do. It is not their knowledge but their lack of information provided!

^^ Amen, brotha! Can I get a WITNESS!

I have a kid who called me wanting to know how much to fix a vibration in a Wrangler. After i explain we have to check it out and yes there will be a diagnostic charge, he says 'It's an '07, it's under warranty'. Red light goes on, why did he ask how much if it's under warranty?

He shows up to drop it off, it's an '07 2 door Wrangler with a 3" suspension lift kit and it is not only vibrating it's making UGLY noises. I go through the 'if it's related to the lift kit it ain't warranty' spiel, I get a disgusted look but he signs the RO.

Tech comes to me withe the rear driveshaft, these are Rzeppa CVs (ball types like a FWD axle) and they have been run with excessive angularity destroying the transfer case end joint. We go check it out, his lift kit is a non adjustable type and the transfer case is still in the stock location meaning the the pinion angle is wrong in relation to the driveshaft. We have fixed a couple of these by going with an aftermarket centering ball CV setup (like an old Chevy) so I call him with an estimate which is in the over $2k range. he starts screeching like a banshee, foaming at the mouth about warranty. Sure, I'll leave it right here till the district rep comes to look at it in 5 to 7 days. Now he wants a loaner car. Not bloody likely.

He finally agrees to the driveshafts but adamantly refuses the adjustable link kit. I put it all over the RO that he declined the kit, no warranty.

His dad calls me a couple days later and starts cussing at me. it's at a local 4x4 shop and they tell him it needs a new rear driveshaft. well, duh. the kid drove it with the wrong driveshaft angles. He wants a driveshaft under warranty. Uh, nope.

Next day the 4x4 shop calls to get an adjustable lift kit, the parts guy wants a PO or a check, the 4x4 shop guy says 'Naw, y'all are paying for this according to the owner'. Hell no we ain't.

This sad stupid play is still going on. The dad calls and cusses me out every couple of days, it's getting so I can set my watch by it.

It is amazing how people dont get that "aftermarket-X" voids the berkeleying warranty. Thank you for reminding me why I got the hell out of the automotive field after 2 1/2 years of training...well, that and if I would have to work on a Chevy

As much as I am against pre-judging people, it would really help if certain people had to wear "I am an idiot" signs, just so I can prepare myself better for the inevitable confrontations.

I am also soooooo glad I do not work in position where I have to deal with the public. Those who do deserve a medal. :)

Jensenman wrote: ^^ Amen, brotha! Can I get a WITNESS! I have a kid who called me wanting to know how much to fix a vibration in a Wrangler. After i explain we have to check it out and yes there will be a diagnostic charge, he says 'It's an '07, it's under warranty'. Red light goes on, why did he ask how much if it's under warranty? He shows up to drop it off, it's an '07 2 door Wrangler with a 3" suspension lift kit and it is not only vibrating it's making UGLY noises. I go through the 'if it's related to the lift kit it ain't warranty' spiel, I get a disgusted look but he signs the RO. Tech comes to me withe the rear driveshaft, these are Rzeppa CVs (ball types like a FWD axle) and they have been run with excessive angularity destroying the transfer case end joint. We go check it out, his lift kit is a non adjustable type and the transfer case is still in the stock location meaning the the pinion angle is wrong in relation to the driveshaft. We have fixed a couple of these by going with an aftermarket centering ball CV setup (like an old Chevy) so I call him with an estimate which is in the over $2k range. he starts screeching like a banshee, foaming at the mouth about warranty. Sure, I'll leave it right here till the district rep comes to look at it in 5 to 7 days. Now he wants a loaner car. Not bloody likely. He finally agrees to the driveshafts but adamantly refuses the adjustable link kit. I put it all over the RO that he declined the kit, no warranty. His dad calls me a couple days later and starts cussing at me. it's at a local 4x4 shop and they tell him it needs a new rear driveshaft. well, duh. the kid drove it with the wrong driveshaft angles. He wants a driveshaft under warranty. Uh, nope. Next day the 4x4 shop calls to get an adjustable lift kit, the parts guy wants a PO or a check, the 4x4 shop guy says 'Naw, y'all are paying for this according to the owner'. Hell no we ain't. This sad stupid play is still going on. The dad calls and cusses me out every couple of days, it's getting so I can set my watch by it.

This is why I wait to get my car/truck out of warranty before I do very stupid stuff to it. I have learned that yelling and cussing at the service/parts reps is the wrong approach. Get to know them and listen to them. Some actually know what they are talking about.

If you want to avoid being talked down to, you have to show that you know what you're talking about. Walking in with a set of alignment specs and saying "I want it aligned to this" will go a long way. Precision and accuracy help a lot.

I've been on both sides of the conversation. Sometimes, you get a tech who just won't acknowledge that maybe you know more about your particular car than he does. And sometimes you get a customer who doesn't bother to mention what should be obvious. The answer to "what work have you just done to the car" should probably include "we replaced the engine" as well as "we set the timing", if appropriate...

From the other side:

2003 MINI still under warranty. I replaced the second factory battery with an Optima battery about 18 months before this incident.

The driver's headlight comes on intermittently I have the high intensity discharge Xenon factory headlights (i.e. high voltage).

Call the dealer to make an appointment and drive down there.

Service tech takes the car back to diagnose it.

45 minutes later, I am told the need to order a new headlight and they would call me when it comes in.

Go to start the car and it does not start, acts like the battery is dead.

Service department takes it back in and another 30 minutes pass.

I am told the battery clamp is loose and had to be tightened. That'll be $85 for the tech's time.

Me: "Why?" Them: "Well, sir, the clamps weren't tight enough, must be whoever installed the battery"

Me: "You mean the tech didn't disconnect the battery when he checked out the headlights?"

Them: "No, why would he do that?"

Me: "Because it says UNDER THE HOOD to disconnect the battery before any service?"

Them: "The tech said it wasn't his fault"

Me: "Riiiggghhhtt"

I simply went to the sales manager of the dealership (he sold me the car originally) and explained what was going on. He went and talked to the service department and "paid for it out of our sales budget".

So, it's on both sides.

I agree with GregTivo, I think idiots just need to wear signs indicating as such.

-Rob

I hear you, and hate it when techs (NOT service writers) try to take advantage of me. Not to turn this into a bitch session, but I just got my BMW back after waiting 8 days for a part to show up. One of the items I had requested was to add a quart of oil as the car told me it was a quart low as I was driving it in, and it was still under factory maintenance including top off fluids. Now, mind you, a current gen. 7 series has an oil level sensor and no dipstick, so you have to rely upon the computer. I picked the car up, writer tells me that all the fluids had been checked and topped off, and I drive off. As I drove it home checked the oil level. Still a quart low. WTF! Call the dealer, speak to a different service writer and register my complaint. The original service writer calls back the following morning, says he asked the tech who swore that he put a quart into it and the oil level sensor must be bad (not unheard of on these things). I tell him no, I put a quart into it when I got it home, the fill cap hadn't been disturbed judging by the dirt on it and the oil level sensor now says the level is correct. I bring it back anyway and wait 45 minutes for them to tell me that everything's fine and the tech now "thinks" he put the oil in. Makes me wonder what else he "thinks" he did...

Along the same lines, the last time I took the Wife's Pilot to the Honduh dealer for an oil change and tire rotation, when I was told it was ready it was painfully obvious that the tires hadn't been rotated. I walked back into the service dept. and politely but clearly told the writer that I had just paid for a tire rotation that hadn't been done. He took an attitude with me, and I walked him out to the car and showed him that the tires with the greater tread depth were still on the same axle and then swiped a finger across the very dirty wheel face to show that there was no way that the wheels had been handled. He then had a chat with the tech, the tires were rotated and the next oil change was on them.

Years ago the trans went out on my Olds Cutlass Supreme, I was under the miles but out of time on the warranty. As I was waiting for the service writer, the guy ahead of me had a similar problem, bad trans on a Cutlass Supreme. He swore and bitched and yelled, and wound up paying full price for a trans. I was polite, and paid 1/2 price.

That's why I try to do most of my service myself. I've dealt with a lot of that crap. I had HD do a tire on my bike and they didn't tighten the axle fastner nut or whatever, the one that locks the axle through the hub. If anyone is gonna kill me it's gonna be me! Good luck!

From the consumer side of it:

Never had a problem at Volvo, Toyota, Nissan, or Chevy.

Have had problems at BMW and Saab.

We had a coupon for $100 worth of work at the Saab dealership. OK, we have a kinda funny noise that we want checked out. I can't remember what it was, but it was something stupid that we could fix with a screwdriver in about 20 minutes in the driveway (which, if you knew our mechanical skills--or lack thereof--is saying something). We decline to have them fix it, and they hit us with a $75 bill for the service. Uh.... We have a coupon... They say that we have to buy something for it to work.... Right... nowhere is it written on the coupon that we have to actually purchase something. After about 10 minutes of asking for a higher up, I finally got the fee waived. Its kinda hard being an 18 year old kid; lots of times they think they can take advantage of you.

I have had a stealership charge me for a part they didn't even replace...luckily I am smart and I caught them in the lie....never go to Galesburg Ford in Michigan....under ANY circumstances.

No offense to the Tires Pluses of the world (...I take that back. berkeley Tires Plus,) but this is why I drive two hours to GTE to have an alignment done on ANY car...and the same reason I'll drive two hours to have new cantilever slicks put on 3-piece aluminum wheels.

As for most other maintenance, I take the "Why would I pay some schmoe $85/hour to berkeley it up, when I can berkeley it up myself" route.

Let the $6/hour tire monkeys do what tire monkeys do best: Swap tires on your DD. Leave alignment to the pros.

Jensenman wrote: ^^ Amen, brotha! Can I get a WITNESS! I have a kid who called me wanting to know how much to fix a vibration in a Wrangler. After i explain we have to check it out and yes there will be a diagnostic charge, he says 'It's an '07, it's under warranty'. Red light goes on, why did he ask how much if it's under warranty? He shows up to drop it off, it's an '07 2 door Wrangler with a 3" suspension lift kit and it is not only vibrating it's making UGLY noises. I go through the 'if it's related to the lift kit it ain't warranty' spiel, I get a disgusted look but he signs the RO.

If kid had done his homework going in, he'd have known this. JK's, more than any jeep before, really need new driveshafts when they are lifted. The Rzeppa joints are quiet, but they really have no place on a Jeep. We've recently released our Double Carden replacement driveshaft for the JK. Also - the pinion angle is usually close enough on a 3" lift that it doesn't need to be messed with once the Double Carden is in place.

Having spent a lot of time on the JK boards though, I think that the sales force is responsible for a LOT of your troubles. They talk out of their ass about the lifetime warranty, and tell the consumer that tires and lifts won't void it so that they can make the sell, and then you guys get stuck cleaning up the mess. There are quite a few people who have choosen a given dealer over another because one says that a lift won't void while the other dealer says it will. Of course, the sales shmo's are just making this E36 M3 up, but the uninformed consumer falls for it.

How do you deal with lifts, tires, etc. that you sell on the vehicle, or does your dealership not sell modified Jeeps?

Ok I had an 06 WRX I modded the crap out of it. I was treated to warranty work that I shouldn't have gotten, just like when I got alignments that they said I shouldn't get. You treat people right and you'll have no problems. I would BS with the techs while they worked, now I wouldn't get in the way and always asked if I was in the way. There's a lot to be said for kissing a little butt when someone works on your car.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

Jensenman wrote: ^^ Amen, brotha! Can I get a WITNESS! I have a kid who called me wanting to know how much to fix a vibration in a Wrangler. After i explain we have to check it out and yes there will be a diagnostic charge, he says 'It's an '07, it's under warranty'. Red light goes on, why did he ask how much if it's under warranty? He shows up to drop it off, it's an '07 2 door Wrangler with a 3" suspension lift kit and it is not only vibrating it's making UGLY noises. I go through the 'if it's related to the lift kit it ain't warranty' spiel, I get a disgusted look but he signs the RO.

If kid had done his homework going in, he'd have known this. JK's, more than any jeep before, really need new driveshafts when they are lifted. The Rzeppa joints are quiet, but they really have no place on a Jeep. We've recently released our Double Carden replacement driveshaft for the JK. Also - the pinion angle is usually close enough on a 3" lift that it doesn't need to be messed with once the Double Carden is in place. Having spent a lot of time on the JK boards though, I think that the sales force is responsible for a LOT of your troubles. They talk out of their ass about the lifetime warranty, and tell the consumer that tires and lifts won't void it so that they can make the sell, and then you guys get stuck cleaning up the mess. There are quite a few people who have choosen a given dealer over another because one says that a lift won't void while the other dealer says it will. Of course, the sales shmo's are just making this E36 M3 up, but the uninformed consumer falls for it. How do you deal with lifts, tires, etc. that you sell on the vehicle, or does your dealership not sell modified Jeeps?

We have sold modified Jeeps in the past, it generally comes down to the customer bringing up the warranty question with the salesman and then they bring the customer to me. I am in a delicate spot when this happens; I don't want to kill a sale but I also know we can't warranty aftermarket stuff, in particular the customer can have a problem if they go out of town and another Jeep dealer can't warranty something aftermarket. So I lay it out for them: an aftermarket component does NOT void the entire vehicle warranty (unlike conventional stupidity, er, wisdom says), but if there is a problem as a result of that aftermarket component Jeep has the right to deny that claim. Any aftermarket stuff we install is covered by whatever warranty the manufacturer (Skyjacker, etc) offers.

A little more background has come up on the Wrangler we've been dealing with, the kid bought it from a used car lot in Virginia already lifted with only about 9k miles on it. Someone's been into the transfer case and that doesn't show on the warranty history.

BTW, right now we have an '08 2 door hardtop Wrangler with a 6.1 Hemi and a (IIRC) 4" lift on our lot. Yessir, it gets a lot of looks. That one has the Cardan joints with an adjustable Skyjacker setup, no pinion angle problems there. It was done in our shop.

Jensenman wrote: BTW, right now we have an '08 2 door hardtop Wrangler with a 6.1 Hemi and a (IIRC) 4" lift on our lot. Yessir, it gets a lot of looks. That one has the Cardan joints with an adjustable Skyjacker setup, no pinion angle problems there. It was done in our shop.

Wow. That hemi swap ain't cheap. First I've heard of a dealer doing the swap. That's cool.

Why are you beating pizzas with a Miata?

pinchvalve wrote: Why are you beating pizzas with a Miata?

Because he asked "What do you beat a pizza with?" on the GRM board.

I had the subframe replaced on my mercedes under warrantee even though the car was 25years old. They made the early cars without enough bracing by the control arms so they can crack and fail. Mine was cracked and the indy quoted 2800$ to do the job, but he'd throw in fresh engine mounts. Well I wasn't gonna go broke all at once, which is easy with a benz, so I went by the dealer to see how much the part was. Well I ended up talking to the service manager who had a tough time deciphering my VIN b/c it is a grey market car, Eventually they got it figured out and said they'd have to get approval from up top before doing the work. Since my car was a german import I didn't know if it was covered so I kept my fingers crossed. They let me rent a new benz for 25$ for a week so I wasn't gonna pass that up while my car was in the shop. Well they approved the job, but cost overuns went up 400$ because one of the bolts was frozen. I was really surprised how well the mercedes dealer took care of my car, so I don't mind buying small parts from the dealer even if they cost more.

The shop that does all of my alignments got a new know-it-all/dumbass, and unfortunately he was the one that got assigned my 944 last time I took it in for an alignment. I got a really annoying talking down to, then he calmly got put in his place. The alignment was pretty far off, because I had changed the struts about a year before that, but put less than 1k miles on it since then(and even told the guy on the phone that). So I drop my car off in the morning of the appointment, and this is what happens when I go to pick it up after work.

Me: I'm here to pick up my 944.

Douche: We couldn't align it because the front struts are totally shot, causing it to be too far out of spec.

Me: No they're not. It's got new struts. I put them on less than a year ago and haven't driven the car but a few hundred miles since.

Douche: (as he chuckles and speaks in an extremely condecsending tone)Yeah, maybe new to you, but those aren't new struts. They look like there as old as the car. And there's oil on them, so they're obviously blown.

Me: No, They're brand new. I put them on myself. These cars take a strut cartridge, so the housings are the original housings, but the struts inside are brand new. There's oil on them because whenever you change the cartridges it's best to put some oil in the tube so you don't trap in moisture. That will cause the cartridges to rust and ultimately fail

Douche: Uh, uh, well then, something must be bent, because it's pretty far out.

Me: Well I'm driving 800 miles round trip for a wedding this weekend, and I just put new tires on it, so I'd rather not destroy them. Can you just get it as close as you can, and if you find anything bent or messed up, let me know and I'll address that.

About half way through this conversation the shop manager walked over and was listening in. He assured me that they would do their best and it would be ready the next day.

I went to pick it up the next day and the shop manager was at the counter, and the douche was no where to be seen. Before I even said anything he was looking for my keys. I asked him if everything was alright with the car, and he tells me that it lined up perfect and handed me the spec sheet. He gave me a pretty good discount and never even mentioned the previous day. He was obviously a bit embarrassed.

Jensenman wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote:

Jensenman wrote: ^^ Amen, brotha! Can I get a WITNESS! I have a kid who called me wanting to know how much to fix a vibration in a Wrangler. After i explain we have to check it out and yes there will be a diagnostic charge, he says 'It's an '07, it's under warranty'. Red light goes on, why did he ask how much if it's under warranty? He shows up to drop it off, it's an '07 2 door Wrangler with a 3" suspension lift kit and it is not only vibrating it's making UGLY noises. I go through the 'if it's related to the lift kit it ain't warranty' spiel, I get a disgusted look but he signs the RO.

If kid had done his homework going in, he'd have known this. JK's, more than any jeep before, really need new driveshafts when they are lifted. The Rzeppa joints are quiet, but they really have no place on a Jeep. We've recently released our Double Carden replacement driveshaft for the JK. Also - the pinion angle is usually close enough on a 3" lift that it doesn't need to be messed with once the Double Carden is in place. Having spent a lot of time on the JK boards though, I think that the sales force is responsible for a LOT of your troubles. They talk out of their ass about the lifetime warranty, and tell the consumer that tires and lifts won't void it so that they can make the sell, and then you guys get stuck cleaning up the mess. There are quite a few people who have choosen a given dealer over another because one says that a lift won't void while the other dealer says it will. Of course, the sales shmo's are just making this E36 M3 up, but the uninformed consumer falls for it. How do you deal with lifts, tires, etc. that you sell on the vehicle, or does your dealership not sell modified Jeeps?

We have sold modified Jeeps in the past, it generally comes down to the customer bringing up the warranty question with the salesman and then they bring the customer to me. I am in a delicate spot when this happens; I don't want to kill a sale but I also know we can't warranty aftermarket stuff, in particular the customer can have a problem if they go out of town and another Jeep dealer can't warranty something aftermarket. So I lay it out for them: an aftermarket component does NOT void the entire vehicle warranty (unlike conventional stupidity, er, wisdom says), but if there is a problem as a result of that aftermarket component Jeep has the right to deny that claim. Any aftermarket stuff we install is covered by whatever warranty the manufacturer (Skyjacker, etc) offers. A little more background has come up on the Wrangler we've been dealing with, the kid bought it from a used car lot in Virginia already lifted with only about 9k miles on it. Someone's been into the transfer case and that doesn't show on the warranty history. BTW, right now we have an '08 2 door hardtop Wrangler with a 6.1 Hemi and a (IIRC) 4" lift on our lot. Yessir, it gets a lot of looks. That one has the Cardan joints with an adjustable Skyjacker setup, no pinion angle problems there. It was done in our shop.

You have to wonder why he wanted a lifted Jeep to begin with. Does he actually want to go rock crawling with it or does he just think it looks cool. The hard core guys in the Jeep club I used to belong to usually have pickup trucks and trailers to haul their rock crawlers to the trail and know that Jeep stands for Just Empty Every Pocket.

$2,000 is nothing to these guys. They are as bad as some road racers.