T.J. wrote: Here is an interesting if not gloomy read that doesn't say to quit your job and live on the rainbows that you manage to fart out by sheer brilliance.
That runs too close to my observations and concerns for comfort. "Be prepared" or "be oblivious" are the only options and not sure which is a worse way to live?
In reply to NOHOME:
That's a really good question.
Already quit my day job for a sweet stay at home gig. The wife just put her notice in too. It's surprising how little you truly need to get by comfortably, though we have been accused of being hippies once ot twice so maybe that has something to do with it.
I'm seriously curious from where this almost fetishistic adoration of society's collapse originates?
z31maniac wrote: I'm seriously curious from where this almost fetishistic adoration of society's collapse originates?
it sells stories, magazines, newspapers, and websites.
dculberson wrote: I have never once seen anyone save the increase in their salary." 100% true. Well, with rounding it's 100% true. Everyone I know that gets a better job buys a fancier car, more expensive house, etc. That's the definition of the treadmill. I'm prone to it myself, it's human nature and it can take years to begin to control. Anyone making a professional level salary in America can live well and save 50% of their take-home and retire in less than 10 years like that. But people seem to value tchotchkes and the trappings of wealth more than wealth itself. Freedom is a valueless phrase to them. I say, having the ability to at any moment say "f-- all of you, I'm out" and not be bankrupt tomorrow is worth more than any piece of crap that rolled off an assembly line. Stop spending, keep earning, and set yourself free.
Left the 2nd half of your post in there because I think we're on the same page, but I disagree with the article's author that no one saves their raises. I started out of college saving 10%, and with raises and promotions over the years, have bumped that to around 35%. My lifestyle and spending really haven't changed much since maybe my 2nd year working.
I am sincerely hoping the increased savings will let me retire by my late 40s. I like my current job, but I think I'd like the freedom to do anything I choose even more.
z31maniac wrote: I'm seriously curious from where this almost fetishistic adoration of society's collapse originates?
And at the same time, those same people wouldn't survive a week without a store to buy food and water at.
This article should be taken with a grain of salt, or possible an entire dry lake bed.
z31maniac wrote: I'm seriously curious from where this almost fetishistic adoration of society's collapse originates?
I think part of it is people are getting fed up with modern "society". They are tired of being stuck in the rat race many of us call life and want massive change. We are all to lazy to make that change happen in a positive manner on the large scale with what we have so I think there is hope if things fall apart maybe something better can be put together from the pieces. Starting with a clean slate if you will.
fifty wrote:dculberson wrote: Like most advice, some of it is good, some not so good. But I loved this paragraph: "First, the science: studies show that an increase in salary only offers marginal to zero increase in “happiness” above a certain level. Why is this? Because the basic fact: people spend what they make. If your salary increases $5,000 you spend an extra $2000 on features for your car, you have an affair, you buy a new computer, a better couch, a bigger TV, and then you ask, “where did all the money go?” Even though you needed none of the above now you need one more thing: another increase in your salary, so back to the corporate casino for one more try at the salary roulette wheel. I have never once seen anyone save the increase in their salary." 100% true.Except it's wrong - look at the line of best fit: a linear increase in happiness :)
You ignored the "above a certain level" bit. It is a middle class or upper middle class salary point where happiness stops tracking salary. In fact it starts going down around $85k/year.
In reply to NOHOME:
For me being oblivious has been much more relaxing. My only planning is eating enough grease every day that I don't make it to the eventual collapse and carrying enough insurance that the wife can weather it comfortably.
T.J. wrote: The guy is correct in that the middle class in the USA is dead. The folks that think they are part of it, are just thinking that way, and will be able to believe it for another few years. The economy keeps getting worse and worse despite the silly reports put out by the government drones and their compliant PR wing the media. Retail stores are all in decline and closing stores, mortgage applications are down, labor participation rate is cratered, inflation is much higher than the officially reported CPI says it is, and the 0.01% continue to rake in their millions by front running the stock market with their HFT algorithms and purchased access to the rigged markets. Here is an interesting if not gloomy read that doesn't say to quit your job and live on the rainbows that you manage to fart out by sheer brilliance.
Except none of that is true; the middle class is going strong and growing where I'm at. I don't know about where you are but houses in good areas here are snatched up as soon as they hit the market (literally within single digit days), the companies in my area are growing, one of my tenants has literally doubled in size (number of employees) in the last couple of years and we're talking 75 or so people not 3. I think you are caught in the "things are bad for me so they're bad for everyone" trap. You say to ignore the media but where do you get your info from? Probably from other people in similar situations to your own which causes a feedback loop. "The Echo Chamber Effect," I believe it's called.
Flynlow wrote: Left the 2nd half of your post in there because I think we're on the same page, but I disagree with the article's author that no one saves their raises. I started out of college saving 10%, and with raises and promotions over the years, have bumped that to around 35%. My lifestyle and spending really haven't changed much since maybe my 2nd year working. I am sincerely hoping the increased savings will let me retire by my late 40s. I like my current job, but I think I'd like the freedom to do anything I choose even more.
That's why I said "100% with rounding," I know people like you exist because I am one, but they're very few and far between. Most people seem to think the upgrade treadmill is the only way to live and achieve happiness. Funny enough many of them don't seem very happy doing it.
Regarding Apocalypse, I think it's sad that people can't change how they're living without seeing other people harmed in the process. The trite nugget "be the change" can be taken in many ways, one of which is - if you think the way society is going is no good, then live how you think people should live! If you can't do it without everyone else doing it then you must not hold those beliefs very strongly..
That article is the most depressing bit of hogwash I've read in quite a while.
Also, I got promoted last year. I'm saving almost ALL of my salary increase. So I guess I'm the only person on the planet who does that, according to that dingbat.
dculberson wrote: Except none of that is true; the middle class is going strong and growing where I'm at. I don't know about where you are but houses in good areas here are snatched up as soon as they hit the market (literally within single digit days), the companies in my area are growing, one of my tenants has literally doubled in size (number of employees) in the last couple of years and we're talking 75 or so people not 3. I think you are caught in the "things are bad for me so they're bad for everyone" trap. You say to ignore the media but where do you get your info from? Probably from other people in similar situations to your own which causes a feedback loop. "The Echo Chamber Effect," I believe it's called.
I think you have it backwards, you're in an echo chamber of success. The stats say that the middle class is definitely in decline (in the US at least).
dculberson, Sky_Render, I believe we have a quorum :).
I think it depends on your profession too. I work mostly with engineers, and many of them are similar super-savers. Maybe because we were abused with math in college, it sticks with us and it's easier to save and delay gratification when we see the snowball effect. Or maybe engineers are antisocial, so the normal venues for blowing money (bars and dating) are closed to us.
Toyman01 wrote: Interesting that some read that and see nothing but negative. Some read it and see plenty of positive. Pretty sure that's a fundamental difference in philosophy that goes way beyond the half full/half empty version. There is no good way to say anything else so...
Toyman, would you be willing to write a bit about your experience. How did you do this? I'm not asking for details of your finances, just an overall picture of how you moved forward.
J
GameboyRMH wrote:dculberson wrote: Except none of that is true; the middle class is going strong and growing where I'm at. I don't know about where you are but houses in good areas here are snatched up as soon as they hit the market (literally within single digit days), the companies in my area are growing, one of my tenants has literally doubled in size (number of employees) in the last couple of years and we're talking 75 or so people not 3. I think you are caught in the "things are bad for me so they're bad for everyone" trap. You say to ignore the media but where do you get your info from? Probably from other people in similar situations to your own which causes a feedback loop. "The Echo Chamber Effect," I believe it's called.I think you have it backwards, you're in an echo chamber of success. The stats say that the middle class is definitely in decline (in the US at least).
It is if you ever thought that working at a factory, pushing paper for a bank or assembly line was a middle class job. I can automate almost every single one of those jobs sitting in my PJ's at home. STEM field work is increasing everyday if you have a good major or work experience then the upper middle class is definitely still around. Its just that with inflation 35-40K a year is really not middle class anymore with inflation and the cost of hires in the slightly higher cost ranges fall just in line with robotics replacement or software costs.
Also the whole nobody is saving line is BS. Almost every single person at my division maxes out 401K savings, does 15 year loans on homes and has minimal lifestyle creep. I have guys with MD's and pHD's that still drive around with the 20 year old car they got as a post doc and brown bag it when they are in the mid 6 figures.
I am willing to bet they are almost all in 40% total savings rate after tax and ould all walk away at any point if they wanted to. Some of them have the goal of leaving at 51-52 and just traveling until their legs give out.
What defines "middle class"? Is it a quality of life (stuff accumulation, home value, car type etc.) Or is it an income level?
wearymicrobe wrote: Also the whole nobody is saving line is BS... I am willing to bet they are almost all in 40% total savings rate after tax and ould all walk away at any point if they wanted to.
Looking at your coworkers--how many of the folks you're referring to are statistically in the middle class? If they have combined household income over $90,000 then they're in the top 25% of households and thus outside of the middle 50%, whether or not they consider themselves middle class.
The farther down the wage scale you go, and the bigger the household is, the less likely that family is to have any real savings.
nocones wrote: What defines "middle class"? Is it a quality of life (stuff accumulation, home value, car type etc.) Or is it an income level?
A fine question. My parents made what I'd consider upper class money when I was growing up but due to poor financial decisions we certainly didn't live that way.
Hmm.... I read this article and was really agreeing with what the guy had to say... until I took a step back and read some of your guys thoughts. Maybe it makes me a bit sheep like but I got sucked in. His writing style was conversational which, while crappy for an article, worked well in a lets sit down and talk about this way. Hmm.... I need to think on this some more.
nocones wrote: What defines "middle class"? Is it a quality of life (stuff accumulation, home value, car type etc.) Or is it an income level?
Traditionally I've always understood it as a household income level, or net worth. Those are objective and measureable.
So, let's go with that. I'm still curious what defines the "middle class?" Is it the middle 50% as supposed a few posts up?
singleslammer wrote: Hmm.... I read this article and was really agreeing with what the guy had to say... until I took a step back and read some of your guys thoughts. Maybe it makes me a bit sheep like but I got sucked in. His writing style was conversational which, while crappy for an article, worked well in a lets sit down and talk about this way. Hmm.... I need to think on this some more.
You know that the guy who wrote that article is also a writer of books. these articles posted on LinkedIn are marketing ploys to get you to by the book.
Also his article starts out
“My boss screamed at me in front of my colleagues. I had done something wrong of course. I had sent a product to the client without debugging it thoroughly. It was my fault. But I don’t like being yelled at. And fortunately I was sitting on a job offer that I decided to take that moment. So the next day I said the magic words, “I quit”. And then a few years after that, I quit again, and never went back to work in the corporate world.”
Yet his Wiki bio says he worked at his first job out of college at HBO and then quit to start his first company. “Altucher's first job after graduating was with HBO, in their IT department…. Altucher's entrepreneurial career began in 1996 when he founded Reset Inc., a website design firm, while still working for HBO…. In 1998, Altucher left HBO and sold Reset Inc. for approximately $10 million, and used the proceeds to fund his new internet investments.”
He then lost all his money and traded for several hedge funds.
Not too sure where he got yelled at and quit. Maybe artistic license, like the trillionaire friend.
You'll need to log in to post.
