Good or Bad? Business content advice needed inside.

I was reading another message board and one of the topics got me thinking about a "low" cost business idea, a vehicle reprogramming service. Basically, a shop repairs some part of a customers vehicle and the repair is either a new module or relearn of a module, but doesn't have to take that vehicle to the "dealer", if I am around. I'll come to them, flash the module, verify the revision, collect money, and leave. If a shop calls and the reflash doesn't fix it, it isn't my problem. They misdiagnosed the problem, I still get paid. No guarantee and no warranty on my "repair".

Thoughts?

Unethical.

You can't offer a service to a shop that you are not prepared to stand behind.

You will be out of business the first time you try to not stand behind the work. The shop will shred you through word of mouth to every other shop they can find.

Vendors who supply finished products or services always expect the vendors they buy components or parts from to provide decent support for their part of the product.

Your customer is the shop. To succeed, you have to provide value to the shop, not expect them to cover your rear end.

You have to offer them support. That will include helping them know how to properly diagnose the problem and utilize your services effectively.

If you can provide value to your customers, you can succeed. If your goal is to pawn off the problems on the customers, it will never work.

Unethical, how so? Dealers do it EVERY day. If someone comes in wanting a reflash, they say it may or may not fix the problem. If it doesn't, pay $200 and go home for you to find your problem, unless you want to spend at least another $100 to find out.

First off, I think you are seriously underestimating the true liability exposure of the dealer.

However, regardless you are talking about the shop being your customer, not the owner. They are a different customer. They will either shred you with other shops through word of mouth, or hit you with a pipe wrench.

You will not be able to build a service business to businesses unless you are providing a value to them.

I'm trying to figure out how this is a low cost business. You won't be able to flash most newer vehicles properly without the factory scan tool, so there is a grand or two per manufacturer, and if you think there is an aftermarket tool that will do the job adequately, you've been lied to by a salesman. Then you have to buy a subscription to each manufacturers website to get the downloads. The tools you bought recently will soon be out of date, although that may end up being ok, since it seems a lot of the OEMs are going to laptop based scan tools. The investment in tooling will have to be matched by your investment in training, because I'd be unhappy with you if I needed you to code a new module for me and you locked it up by not doing it correctly.

Another problem is that you are likely to be working for lower end shops, since anybody now that is serious about the game probably has the tools and subscription they need for their specialty.

Now, having said that, there are people that do that exact job, but they are generally very smart, highly experienced diagnosticians who can come to your shop and figure out which module is pulling the CAN bus down, and fix it for you. If thats your skill level, go for it. If you think its kinda like updating Windows, you are probably going to get a rude education. Keep your eyes wide open on this idea.

flashed car ROM is software protected by the DMCA and others.

You can't legally obtain the roms to flash without substantial liscensing cost from originating dealership.

Programming a rom from scratch, in addition to knowing how to setup electronic ignition from scratch, also requires you to know how to program in assembly for the chipset used in that car's cpu.

(trivia, the processor in the WRX is the same cpu used in a Sega Saturn. o-O)

madmallard wrote: (trivia, the processor in the WRX is the same cpu used in a Sega Saturn. o-O)

I'mma have to ask for a source on that one. I thought that was really cool trivia, so I Googled it, and got nothing. Normally, I'm pretty good at Google.

Streetwiseguy wrote: I'm trying to figure out how this is a low cost business. You won't be able to flash most newer vehicles properly without the factory scan tool, so there is a grand or two per manufacturer, and if you think there is an aftermarket tool that will do the job adequately, you've been lied to by a salesman. Then you have to buy a subscription to each manufacturers website to get the downloads. The tools you bought recently will soon be out of date, although that may end up being ok, since it seems a lot of the OEMs are going to laptop based scan tools. The investment in tooling will have to be matched by your investment in training, because I'd be unhappy with you if I needed you to code a new module for me and you locked it up by not doing it correctly. Another problem is that you are likely to be working for lower end shops, since anybody now that is serious about the game probably has the tools and subscription they need for their specialty. Now, having said that, there are people that do that exact job, but they are generally very smart, highly experienced diagnosticians who can come to your shop and figure out which module is pulling the CAN bus down, and fix it for you. If thats your skill level, go for it. If you think its kinda like updating Windows, you are probably going to get a rude education. Keep your eyes wide open on this idea.

Low cost is less then 25k, much less then even opening a one bay no lift garage for one year. I would only start with GM, Ford, and Chrysler, since I already have dealt with them through the various dealerships where I have worked. OEM scan tools are now laptop based with the associated dongle to make it communicate with the vehicle. I looked at just those three manufacturers and I would be out 15k including an all-in-one service manual, wiring diagrams, TSB's, recall information, and flash capability 1 yr subscription for each manufacturer along with a high-zoot laptop, each dongle needed, and a reflash module.

Nobody and I really mean nobody, around here wants to invest in the tools to fix and/or upgrade electrical or module problems, unless it is the simple no power or lost ground to the module fix.

I have been that guy that fixes those exact problems. CAN bus architecture isn't that hard to diagnose. You just spend your time trying to get to that module taking down the bus.

To say I am going to leave the customer high and dry is ignorant. No good tech or shop owner is going to let that happen. You can't flash a module that doesn't communicate, but that could be found out when they call you. To not ask the circumstances and act blindly is ignorant.

Streetwiseguy wrote: I'm trying to figure out how this is a low cost business. You won't be able to flash most newer vehicles properly without the factory scan tool, so there is a grand or two per manufacturer, and if you think there is an aftermarket tool that will do the job adequately, you've been lied to by a salesman. Then you have to buy a subscription to each manufacturers website to get the downloads. The tools you bought recently will soon be out of date, although that may end up being ok, since it seems a lot of the OEMs are going to laptop based scan tools. The investment in tooling will have to be matched by your investment in training, because I'd be unhappy with you if I needed you to code a new module for me and you locked it up by not doing it correctly. Another problem is that you are likely to be working for lower end shops, since anybody now that is serious about the game probably has the tools and subscription they need for their specialty. Now, having said that, there are people that do that exact job, but they are generally very smart, highly experienced diagnosticians who can come to your shop and figure out which module is pulling the CAN bus down, and fix it for you. If thats your skill level, go for it. If you think its kinda like updating Windows, you are probably going to get a rude education. Keep your eyes wide open on this idea.

Yeah, my first two thoughts are:
Is there actually a market for this (I REALLY doubt it)
The overhead is astronomical. I know the mercedes scan tool is 12K, I'd assume the BMW one is the same. You're looking at a six figure start up for a mobile business that can work out of a Geo Metro! Then there's what SVreX said. The first time you don't stand behind your work you are toast.

Ranger50 wrote:

Streetwiseguy wrote: I'm trying to figure out how this is a low cost business. You won't be able to flash most newer vehicles properly without the factory scan tool, so there is a grand or two per manufacturer, and if you think there is an aftermarket tool that will do the job adequately, you've been lied to by a salesman. Then you have to buy a subscription to each manufacturers website to get the downloads. The tools you bought recently will soon be out of date, although that may end up being ok, since it seems a lot of the OEMs are going to laptop based scan tools. The investment in tooling will have to be matched by your investment in training, because I'd be unhappy with you if I needed you to code a new module for me and you locked it up by not doing it correctly. Another problem is that you are likely to be working for lower end shops, since anybody now that is serious about the game probably has the tools and subscription they need for their specialty. Now, having said that, there are people that do that exact job, but they are generally very smart, highly experienced diagnosticians who can come to your shop and figure out which module is pulling the CAN bus down, and fix it for you. If thats your skill level, go for it. If you think its kinda like updating Windows, you are probably going to get a rude education. Keep your eyes wide open on this idea.

Low cost is less then 25k, much less then even opening a one bay no lift garage for one year. I would only start with GM, Ford, and Chrysler, since I already have dealt with them through the various dealerships where I have worked. OEM scan tools are now laptop based with the associated dongle to make it communicate with the vehicle. I looked at just those three manufacturers and I would be out 15k including an all-in-one service manual, wiring diagrams, TSB's, recall information, and flash capability 1 yr subscription for each manufacturer along with a high-zoot laptop, each dongle needed, and a reflash module. Nobody and I really mean nobody, around here wants to invest in the tools to fix and/or upgrade electrical or module problems, unless it is the simple no power or lost ground to the module fix. I have been that guy that fixes those exact problems. CAN bus architecture isn't that hard to diagnose. You just spend your time trying to get to that module taking down the bus. To say I am going to leave the customer high and dry is ignorant. No good tech or shop owner is going to let that happen. You can't flash a module that doesn't communicate, but that could be found out when they call you. To not ask the circumstances and act blindly is ignorant.

Are you able to get the software needed to re-flash from the Detroit Three? I know Chrysler is rather protective of that.

All of it is downloadable via a paid subscription and high speed internet.

Ranger50 wrote: To say I am going to leave the customer high and dry is ignorant. No good tech or shop owner is going to let that happen. You can't flash a module that doesn't communicate, but that could be found out when they call you. To not ask the circumstances and act blindly is ignorant.

No it is NOT. There is absolutely nothing ignorant about it. It was a DIRECT response to your statement:

Ranger50 wrote: I'll come to them, flash the module, verify the revision, collect money, and leave. If a shop calls and the reflash doesn't fix it, it isn't my problem. They misdiagnosed the problem, I still get paid. No guarantee and no warranty on my "repair". Thoughts?

You asked for thoughts, after saying it "isn't your problem", that "They misdiagnosed the problem", and that you would offer "No guarantee and not warranty on your repair".

So, my thoughts at this point (per your request) are that you need to develop some business ethics, and not suggest that I (or anyone else) is ignorant for responding directly to what you said.

If you don't actually want my thoughts (or anyone else's), then don't ask.

I think many shops would just replace the ecu, for fear that it isn't the software, but hardware failure in the ecu.

SVreX wrote:

Ranger50 wrote: To say I am going to leave the customer high and dry is ignorant. No good tech or shop owner is going to let that happen. You can't flash a module that doesn't communicate, but that could be found out when they call you. To not ask the circumstances and act blindly is ignorant.

No it is NOT. There is absolutely nothing ignorant about it. It was a DIRECT response to your statement:

Ranger50 wrote: I'll come to them, flash the module, verify the revision, collect money, and leave. If a shop calls and the reflash doesn't fix it, it isn't my problem. They misdiagnosed the problem, I still get paid. No guarantee and no warranty on my "repair". Thoughts?

You asked for thoughts, after saying it "isn't your problem", that "They misdiagnosed the problem", and that you would offer "No guarantee and not warranty on your repair". So, my thoughts at this point (per your request) are that you need to develop some business ethics, and not suggest that I (or anyone else) is ignorant for responding directly to what you said. If you don't actually want my thoughts (or anyone else's), then don't ask.

Now hold on, I believe you are making an ASSUMPTION that isn't true any more and are using that assumption to make your argumentative point.

Control modules are now shipped COMPLETELY BLANK, no software loaded, no VIN written, no nothing. Back in the "old days", you ordered modules with the programming loaded and just had to write VIN's and maybe mileage and/or speedo related stuff. Or stuff you could do without a factory scan tool, if you had the higher end SnapOn/Genisys/Other tool truck scan tool.

But back to your point of contention, if a shop is calling me to flash a new module, I perform my tasks of flashing the module to the vehicle, and it doesn't fix the shop customers complaint, how is it my fault in their misdiagnosing of THEIR customer's problem? I'm still trying to figure that out.. Now, I can see the problem of the shop finding a TSB, that may or may not apply to the vehicle, and only doing half of the repair, which is my half and blaming me for not fixing it. I can see that clearly, I have done fixed many of those problem children in my past, but that can be found out during the initial contact phone call or even in shop before hooking up anything.

Unless you have been an automotive service tech in the last few years, you won't or don't understand today's vehicles just out of warranty coverage.

sachilles wrote: I think many shops would just replace the ecu, for fear that it isn't the software, but hardware failure in the ecu.

Which are blank and need programming to the vehicle.

Ranger50 wrote:

sachilles wrote: I think many shops would just replace the ecu, for fear that it isn't the software, but hardware failure in the ecu.

Which are blank and need programming to the vehicle.

Most of the "cost conscious" folks hitting indy shops, more often than not end up with a used junkyard part.

I'm not making any assumptions. I am trying to respond to what you said.

Your initial post heralds the advantages of this business, which include the entire diagnostic responsibility being that of the shop, and that you would offer no guarantee or warranty on the services you were providing.

As you explained it, it won't promote positive business interactions, even if you ARE "experienced" or "read it on another message board". I'm trying to help you out here.

If you are reconsidering that approach, great. I see no problem. But the initial approach, as you stated it, is problematic, with no added assumptions on my part.

Low cost business that has to do with cars and racing:

Oldschool race alignments

Street tuning EFI/carbs. Do weekends at a dyno shop

SVreX wrote:

Ranger50 wrote: To say I am going to leave the customer high and dry is ignorant. No good tech or shop owner is going to let that happen. You can't flash a module that doesn't communicate, but that could be found out when they call you. To not ask the circumstances and act blindly is ignorant.

No it is NOT. There is absolutely nothing ignorant about it. It was a DIRECT response to your statement:

Ranger50 wrote: I'll come to them, flash the module, verify the revision, collect money, and leave. If a shop calls and the reflash doesn't fix it, it isn't my problem. They misdiagnosed the problem, I still get paid. No guarantee and no warranty on my "repair". Thoughts?

You asked for thoughts, after saying it "isn't your problem", that "They misdiagnosed the problem", and that you would offer "No guarantee and not warranty on your repair". So, my thoughts at this point (per your request) are that you need to develop some business ethics, and not suggest that I (or anyone else) is ignorant for responding directly to what you said. If you don't actually want my thoughts (or anyone else's), then don't ask.

Sorry, I just "NOTED" this post when I meant to vote it up. I agree with everything SVreX is saying here.

Osterkraut wrote:

madmallard wrote: (trivia, the processor in the WRX is the same cpu used in a Sega Saturn. o-O)

I'mma have to ask for a source on that one. I thought that was really cool trivia, so I Googled it, and got nothing. Normally, I'm pretty good at Google.

It intrigued me as well. I could only find that they were both mode by Hitachi, but nothing that stated the were the same model.

Yeah, the original post came off as very arrogant. Sort of like "Pay me, I'll do exactly what you say and leave. If that doesn't fix it, you'll pay be again, I'll do exactly what you say."
Now, if you flash a module, say for a 2012 Charger SRT8 (out of warranty for any number of reasons) for my shop and the ADS system isn't working you'll tell me I didn't diagnose it properly. I'll feel rather miffed but I'm going to have my tech dot all his freaking "i"s and cross all his "t"s. When it turns out that this vehicle was an early vehicle shipped with the 2-mode ADS and you flashed the three-mode (leavins the ADS system inop) I'm coming back at you with both guns blazing. Then, after I collect for all that diagnostic time I'm telling every shop I know of, the Snap-On, Mac, and Matco guys, my mom, and my old locker partner about you and your customer support.
Now, understand I'm not coming down on YOU, do please don't take this personal. I'm just saying that the way I took the tone of the first post was rather harsh. If a shop can't flash a module they are going to be looking for your help and guidance.

sachilles wrote: Most of the "cost conscious" folks hitting indy shops, more often than not end up with a used junkyard part.

Which don't/won't work and end up buying a new one. BTDT. Only a few cases does that happen that, it DOES work.

Silly question:

These shops would buy the ecu from a dealer? Would it be unreasonable to expect that dealer to flash it prior to delivery to customer. Or are you finding that if you buy an ecu from the dealer(those that ship them blank), then charge an additional fee flash them.

Or can you buy the ecu outside the dealer parts network?

I can understand why the manufacturer would send blank ones to the dealer. As you could conceivably use the same hardware for many different models etc.

I most kindly suggest that you take a course or two on basic selling skills. The responses you have posted so far indicate that there are interpersonal challenges ahead of you that could cost you much more than the course.