Grassroots Railroad Sports?

Chili 5-way!

There's also a couple of the really neat Alco/MLW-Worthington DL-535E diesels that have come south to America. White Pass & Yukon originally dieselized with some weird shovel-nosed, Alco-powered boxcab GEs in the mid-'50s. By the late 1960s, they needed additional power, and they placed an order for seven 6-axle, 1200hp DL-535Es from Alco based on the popular DL-535 export locomotive, #101-#107. One key difference, however, is that the DL-535 export features a high short hood whereas the White Pass DL-535E features a more traditional North American-style low short hood. Looking like a mini C420, these had a 1200hp inline-6 turbocharged Alco 251D engine. Alco got partway through building the locomotives, and then abruptly went out of business, so the partially-constructed locomotives were shipped by flat car to Montreal and completed by still-extant Canadian subsidiary MLW-Worthington. The locomotives were then shipped west to Alaska. No sooner had the railroad receiving its new power on October 15, 1969, the #102 and #105 met their end before ever turning a wheel in revenue service when they were trapped inside the Skagway roundhouse as it burned to the ground. They were never repaired and scrapped in 1993. The five remaining engines performed well enough that WP&Y returned for an additional three, #108-#110, in 1971.

In July 1982, the WP&Y ordered an additional four units, to be #111-#114, and to be built by Bombardier, who had taken over MLW by this point. Mechanically, these later units were identical to the earlier unit, but they were to use a wide cab like an MLW M420W or a Bombardier HR412 instead of the traditional standard cab of the first ten. Three of these units were ultimately never delivered to them, due to Cyprus Anvil Mining abruptly closing the Faro Mine which resulted in shuttering of the railroad. They were eventually placed in storage and then two were sold in 1991 to US Gypsum in Plaster City, CA. US Gypsum first purchased #112 and #113 in 1991 and, after the wreck of #113 in 1992, they also acquired #111 as its replacement in 1993.

By 1992, the WP&Y reopened as a tourist line, due to the rise of Alaskan cruise lines, and they took delivery of the #114, but, since its ore-hauling days were over, it was flush with motive power and the decision was made to sell the first batch of DL-535Es. The unique locomotives caught the interest of Sociedad Colombiana de Transport Ferroviaro, the National Railway of Colombia and #101,# 103, #104, #106, and #107 were sold and loaded on a barge destined for South America. This lasted only a few years, however, when additional tourist trains created the need for more motive power. In 1999, for a second time, a deal was struck with SCdeTF to buy back all five DL535s and barge them back to Alaska.

In recent years, WP&Y has taken delivery of new 3000hp GE locomotives, and the old DL-535Es went up for sale again. The #101, #103, #106, and #107 were sold again, this time to the Durango & Silverton for use on MoW trains and during times of high fire risk. D&S had ordered two narrow gauge diesels that were built from regauged EMD F40PHL-2s, but the builder went out of business before they were completed, and the designs were so fundamentally flawed that it was determined there was no way to make them work. On November 11, 2023, Cumbres & Toltec announced they were acquiring the wide-cab #114, also for MoW use, and it was shipped to Antonito, Colorado. That leaves #104, #108, #109 and #110 stored up at Alaska, while #101, #103, #106, and #107 are at D&S, #111 and #112 are at US Gypsum, and #114 is at C&T.

D&S seems to run them in pairs. as seen here when I was out there last summer.

Wow, thanks for the history lesson there. Amazing how many locomotives went back and forth to Alaska over the years.

We rode up on a weekday morning having driven in from Whitehorse where my in-laws live so were the odd ducks that weren't coming in from a cruise ship (maybe two in the harbour that day). The steam train we were on was pulling 3 carriages all original to the railway from the late 1800's, from memory there were at least 3 more diesel's going up at the same time spaced out all pulling quite a few more carriages than us (10 ish). I know after lunch they did it all again with new passengers. Our train went to the turn around at Fraser BC (that's where the Canadian border crossing is even though you're about 8 miles from the actual border at the summit) so they could bring the locomotive back to the front for the trip back down.

Here's one of the diesel's going past while were on a siding at the summit.

This is from 2019 when we happened to be visiting Carcross, YT as the train pulled in over the swing bridge. Currently this is as far as they go even though the tracks are still there, unused and unmaintained all the way to Whitehorse (there is a section along the Yukon river that they run a small electric trolley on pulling a generator behind it). 

adam525i said:

Here's one of the diesel's going past while were on a siding at the summit.

 

That's one of the even earlier 90-series GE shovelnoses, referred to as an X3341. Those were built in '54 and '56 by GE but using 800hp Alco 6-251A engines (Alco and GE were partnered still, but GE was turning out their own line of engines, often using Alco engines). Around 2010 or so, WP&Y had them rebuilt with 1,450hp Cummins QSK45L prime movers by Sygnet Rail Technologies, but they were put up for sale by WP&Y in 2022 when they also put the DL-535Es up for sale, with the arrival of the new 3000hp NRE E-3000E3Bs

The big thing is that, on top of being 60-70 years newer, the new engines are rated at 3000hp from a EMD 16-645, which allows a 2-1 replacement of the rebuilt GEs, and nearly a 3-1 replacement of the DL-535Es

adam525i said:

Wow, thanks for the history lesson there. Amazing how many locomotives went back and forth to Alaska over the years.

I'd love to see photos of the two ET&WNC ("Tweetsie") 4-6-0s, #10 and #14, up at Alaska but I don't believe they ran much (on top of the fact that there weren't railfans traveling to Alaska during WWII to go photograph the WP&Y). I found an old post on Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum that supposedly had a link to photos of them as USA #10 and US #14, but it was from 2003 and 22 years of link decay have rendered it inaccessible. All records now show that #10 and #14 were purchased in '42 by the US Army and moved to Alaska, were used as yard engines and helper engines on the hill out of Whitehorse, and then damaged in the 1943 roundhouse fire in Whitehorse. When #61 was dug up out of the banks of the Skagway River, after having been dumped there in '49, a "a similar 4-6-0" was dragged out of the river at the same time. Some leap to the conclusion that it was Tweetsie #10 or #14, especially since Tweetsie RR steam guru Frank Coffey claimed he stood on the remains of either engine in his 50s visit to Skagway to eventually purchase # 190 for the North Carolina park. It seems like Mr. Coffey may have been mistaken though, since all records show that #10 and #14, after being damaged in the 1943 roundhouse fire in Whitehorse, were scrapped at the Northern Pacific dead line at Auburn, WA after the war. The same place that everything not left at Alaska met it's demise. The "similar 4-6-0" dug out of the river bank was probably WP&Y 4-6-0 #62, the sister engine to #61, also marked as being dumped in the riverbank as riprap.  

There are a few, very few, of the seven D&RGW K-28s that went up to Alaska, renumbered to USA #250-#256 (#471, #472, #474, #475, #477, #479).

As a wild note, the #474 (USA #253) entered service after the rest because it fell off the barge into the bay at Haines, Alaska and had to be retrieved and repaired. The US Army reportedly wanted all ten of the K-28s, and the D&RGW was not keen on that idea and tried to instead get them to take the remaining K-27s (#452, #453, #454, #455, #457, #461, #462, #463, #464) which were mostly puttering around as yard switchers or were in use on the spindly Rio Grande Southern. The US Army was not interested in the K-27s, because they were too old, too worn-out, too beat up, and weren't really standardized. A number of upgrades over the years had left the K-27s with a dizzying combinations of features and arrangements. The US Army wanted "big" modern narrow gauge power, with most of the other stuff they acquired just too small and light and old to be worth much more than helper or switcher engines. D&RGW and the Army instead settled for selling 7 of the K-28s, and then the Army acquired the 42" gauge S-118s and had them regauged to 36" and shipped up to Alaska. The D&RGW was reluctant to hand off the K-28s, since they were outfitted for passenger service, could go anywhere on the system, and they likely got their way because the D&RGW was vital to the war effort, due to the CF&I coal mine at Crested Butte, which was at one time the largest coal mine in the state and even by WWII was still one of the largest.

In 1944, with the Alcan Highway complete, the US Army relinquished control of the WP&Y, and the excess power, including the K-28s, were all retired and moved to Auburn, Washington in 1944 by the US Army. All seven were offered for sale by the USA, but there were no buyers (Rio Grande, White Pass, EBT, or anyone else) and they were eventually scrapped while still owned by the US Army. There was no market for used heavy narrow gauge power in post WWII US, since the writing was on the wall for narrow gauge and for steam. By 1946, the K-28s, along with anything shipped back to Washington, were scrapped. You can see the #250 and #251, sans tender, and it looks like it's front-coupled to USA #23, a Silverton Northern Railroad 2-8-0. An interesting observation is that if D&RGW had sold all the K-27s or all the K-28s to the US Army, there very likely wouldn't be any survivors of one class or another. If the three K-28s had not been retained by the D&RGW, I would guess that no K-28's would have survived into the 1950s with all the K-27s being kept around for loan to the RGS, and if more of the K-28ss had remained in Colorado, the two remaining K-27s might never have happened. Most likely scrapped not long after the RGS scrapping. Five K-28s could have handled the Silverton and Farmington branches with the K-36s and K-37s on the mainline to Alamosa. It was extremely good luck to have members of both the K27 and K28 classes remaining in existence today.

I've read some accounts saying that the inboard-frame K-28s didn't work well up to Alaska because those big divorced counterweights swinging around outside the railhead were prone to climbing up on ice built up along the railroad and derailing them. A gentleman named Casey Carlson actually interviewed some 770th Engineer Company vets on operations of the #190s (USATC S-118s) and #250s (D&RGW K-28s), along with mentions of the #80/#81 (Sumpter Valley 2-8-0s). 

First up is Maxwell Sheif, an engineman with the 770th. Interview 1-15-06.

(CC) Do you remember the #80 or #81?
(MS) Yeah, I thought it was #88 but I guess it was the #81. I remember one time I had to clean her fire...must have been every two miles all the way up the hill. Us firemen didn't much like her because she was a bitch to fire. You never got to sit down once you left Skagway with her. As soon as you shoveled it in, it was out the stack! But part of the problem was the coal. They'd truck it from the ship to the airfield, then dump it and bulldoze it into a pile. By the time we got it, it was mostly bad dust.
(CC) That makes it tough alright.
(MS) Now you take those Army engines (the 190's). You could get a good heel in the corners and rear and by the time you were a third of the way up the hill you could sit down.
(CC) Do you remember working on the 250 class?
(MS) Gosh, I'm 84 now, but yeah I do remember the 250. It wasn't too bad of an engine. But compared to the Army engines, by God, those 190's were good.

Next up is Frank Larcomb, interviewed in 2005. 

(CC) So you were a machinist?
(FL) Yeah, I was a machinist. George Rapuzzi, Koploski, and me. During the big snowstorm I worked in the machine shop for 36 hours. I'd throw some waste against a vise and grab a little sleep. But lots of coffee helped of course!
(CC) You had to keep working because they kept breaking parts out-
(FL) Yeah. The rotaries would hit something and ruin their machinery. Had to keep the rotaries going!
(CC) Were you pretty well equipped in the shop up there?
(FL) What we didn't have, we improvised. We got along wonderfully.
(CC) Made do with what you had, and made what you didn't have.
(FL) Exactly. I was 21 and had previous experience on the Pennsy, so that helped. We turned tires, bored wheels out for the car shop, turned axles...we did pretty good for a bunch of kids really.
(CC) Do you remember working on the #4, the Skagway switcher?
(FL) That damn thing just kept running. A little fella ran her, and she was his baby.
(CC) Tough engine, huh?
(FL) Yeah. I'll tell you a good one. We had an ol' boy from Arkansas, and they were working on a locomotive. Working on the pops. This guy went and lit a fire in her. Next thing you know, she had 300 pounds of pressure!
(CC) That's not good.
(FL) No, not at all. So, one of the guys went up and opened the valve on top of the boiler. You probably could have kicked her side and she would have blown up!
(CC) Was that on one of the Rio Grande engines, or one of the 190's?
(FL) I think it was on one of the 190's. Boy, those Rio Grande engines sure were low to the ground. They'd just roll up the hill.
(CC) Kind of waddled.
(FL) Yeah!
(CC) Did you know Alex Gotoski?
(FL) Yeah! He and I used to stay in the same Quanset Hut.
(CC) You bunked in a Quanset Hut?
(FL) They put me in a tent at -20 below when I first got up there and I caught pnuemonia!

02Pilot said:

D&S seems to run them in pairs. as seen here when I was out there last summer.

Odd, considering tthe DL-535E is rated at 43,200lbs of starting tractive effort and 64,200lbs continuous, while the strongest steam locomotive they have, K-37 #493, is rated for approximately 37,000lbs (MiKado, 37,000lbs). I'm guessing to keep wear and tear down on them, since you can't just have a blacksmith hammer out new parts like a steam locomotive, and so that they don't have to spend time turning them.

The US Gypsum operation that I mentioned is noteworthy in that it's the last narrow gauge freight railroad in the US. WP&Y hasn't hauled freight since the 1982 shutdown, the East Broad Top ended freight operations in 1956, and the last D&RGW narrow gauge revenue freight was in 1968.  The US Gypsum mine line runs north from Plaster City, named for US Gypsum's primary use, to a quarry in the Fish Creek Mountains, which is estimated to contain a deposit worth 25 million tons of gypsum. Constructed in 1922 by a San Diegan pharmacist, it's been 36" gauge for 103 years now. It dieselized in '47, although the early diesels were problematic enough that it leased Southern Pacific narrow gauge "Slim Princess" 4-6-0 #8 for several months in 1949, followed by a hurrah for steam in June 1952, when SP 4-6-0 #9 pinch-hit for an ailing Whitcomb diesel. They of course received the aforementioned Bombardier DL-535Es in 1991 and 1993, and they still wear the pilot plows that were installed for use up in the Yukon.

The #111 in the old solid blue paint, proving that even though it's small, it's still an Alco. The open front cab door is standard procedure, for ventilation.

Duke said:

Always amuses me how this photo gets bandied around online as "abandoned train." Abandoned, eh? So why are the headlights and ditch lights on, and why's there a crew in hi-vis garb in the cab.

That's interesting that you talk about some of the engines being dumped in the riverbank near Skagway. Just as you get rolling out of town they point out an engine on it's side mostly in the ground just off the line and explain that when they were done with them they'd just dump them there and bury them. At some point more recently they needed parts (apparently) so they dug one up to pull something off and that is the one you can see as you roll by. I don't recall seeing the river (it's been over ten years) at that point but I would guess they were dropped there specifically to shore up the line from the river below.

You should really get up there, the views are spectacular carving your way up the valleys, through a cuts in the cliff face and tunnels through outcrops. The change in landscape is dramatic too from lush forest down by Skagway to more of an Alpine setting as you get near the top of the pass, as you go over it changes into an environment that seems otherworldly, lots of bare rock, moss and tiny scragly plants and trees that have a very short growing season and tough winters buried under snow. You get good views of the line ahead and behind too so bring a good lense and you'll be able to shoot the other trains making their way up.

Since you obviously like steam the Dutches is in Carcross on display and in Whitehorse you can tour the SS Klondike, the largest of the paddle wheelers. The Yukon Transportation museum is cool too, they have one of the LeTourneau overland trains out front (the other in the north is outside of Fairbanks Alaska along the highway).

NickD said:

The US Gypsum operation... dieselized in '47, although the early diesels were problematic enough that it leased Southern Pacific narrow gauge "Slim Princess" 4-6-0 #8 for several months in 1949, followed by a hurrah for steam in June 1952, when SP 4-6-0 #9 pinch-hit for an ailing Whitcomb diesel.

I thought I had a book mentioning this, and dug through my collection, and it was Richard Steinheimer's Backwoods Railroads of the West. He mentions it being spring of '53, and the usual six-axle GE was out of service with a major failure, so a side-rod Whitcomb was put in service. The Whitcomb began showing signs of failure, and the stockpile of raw gypsum was running low, so they rang up Southern Pacific, who moved 4-6-0 #9 by flatcar from the remnants of the Carson & Colorado in the Owens Valley to Plaster City, and the nearby San Diego & Arizona Eastern supplied steam-trained crews.

Steinheimer notes that the #9 was "as cantankerous as a desert burro", and says that US Gypsum had removed their steam servicing facilities, so water fill-ups were a lengthy affair handled by a fire hose. 

Steinheimer also states something you won't find elsewhere when searching US Gypsum: THE RAILROAD RAN THROUGH A US NAVY AERIAL GUNNERY RANGE. He says "Perhaps the most memorable event cane one moonlit evening returning from the mine. The #9 was on the point, with its pale yellow light projecting ahead; the ore train began crossing the portion of the gunnery range. Suddenly there were planes overhead; huge aerial flares dropped and the air was filled with sounds of guns and rockets. Terrified, the crew extinguished the headlight and, as can be guessed, established a new world speed record for 44-inch steam wheels!"

In reply to NickD :

I looked at Google earth after your 1st USGypsum post to see where Plaster City is. No wonder they run with the front door open! That is one of the least habitable parts of the entire planet. Really should have true A/C and automatic coupling for the crew's sake. Steam in the summer there, ugh...