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tuna55
tuna55 UltimaDork
6/29/15 1:09 p.m.

So, help me understand. The entire country is teetering on the edge of collapse because of a 200% dept to GDP ratio, and "austerity" packages essentially mean "We eventually have to pay for all this E36 M3 somehow" and there are people fighting it? Do these people just cover their eyes and scream "LALALALALALA"? Are they thinking that if they are high enough on the ship when it sinks that they'll still be above the waterline?

I seriously don't understand.

Oh, and the Eurozone is surprisingly robust. I am not an expert in foreign governments, but I am bearish on the Eurozone surviving long. Considering how badly and long this has played out, and how Greek banks have closed for an entire week, the Euro has only dropped a percentage point or so thus far. Impressive.

fritzsch
fritzsch Dork
6/29/15 1:20 p.m.

Austerity does not promote growth.

bravenrace
bravenrace MegaDork
6/29/15 1:22 p.m.

"Do these people just cover their eyes and scream "LALALALALALA"". Yes, just like they do in this country. That surprises you?

tuna55
tuna55 UltimaDork
6/29/15 1:23 p.m.
fritzsch wrote: Austerity does not promote growth.

That's it?

Crashing your country into the ground so hard that it bounces and shatters a few times doesn't promote growth either.

fritzsch
fritzsch Dork
6/29/15 1:35 p.m.
tuna55 wrote:
fritzsch wrote: Austerity does not promote growth.
That's it? Crashing your country into the ground so hard that it bounces and shatters a few times doesn't promote growth either.

It wasn't Greece's fault, for the most part. As part of loan agreements and other such agreements, other Eurozone countries, Germany being the biggest player, required Greece to accept harsh austerity packages. So funding was slashed and as a result the economy tanked.

Greece wasn't in a terrible position before joining the Euro, but when it did there was a flood of imports from other European countries because money was cheap and countries like Germany benefited greatly while Greece, Italy, Spain did not do so hot. Germany in essence also said that those struggling countries should be more like Germany, but in a closed economic system not everyone can be an exporter. Math just doesn't work that way. So its ironic that Germany would say to other countries to be more like them when Germany's success has more or less been at their expense.

tuna55
tuna55 UltimaDork
6/29/15 1:39 p.m.

In reply to fritzsch:

From what I read (which is vastly different, though I cannot verify if it's more or less valid than what you have posted) is that their debt-GDP was always terrible, and always was getting worse, due to tons of tax system abuse, super generous government jobs, and massive black market components to the economy.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy UberDork
6/29/15 1:44 p.m.
fritzsch wrote: It wasn't Greece's fault, for the most part. Greece wasn't in a terrible position before joining the Euro

Yes, it is absolutely Greece's fault, and maybe maybe not to your second point.

Greece should never have been in the euro. Buts it corrupt populace and politicians led them to the turning point at 2008, and they have done NOTHING to right their own wrongs.

Of course, they should never have been bailed out either. The problem is that this is much more than bankruptcy, its the European Union itself at stake. So rather than this being about financials, its about politics more than anything.

The European Union will always be a failure of a project unless countries give up their sovereign rights to govern themselves. It would be a cold day in hell for most people. It would be like if Canada decided to join the USA in a union.

fritzsch
fritzsch Dork
6/29/15 1:49 p.m.

Well what is a bad debt-GDP ratio? Before the financial crisis, Greece's debt-GDP ratio was slightly above 100%. The US has about the same ratio currently I believe. It is not a very accurate measure of economic health. Japan has had a very high ratio for many years, but they also have their own problems. But a high ratio does not say a huge amount. And I am sure those other things did contribute but I don't know how much.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess MegaDork
6/29/15 1:50 p.m.

Well, it's complicated. Greece was never Germany, and never will be. Goldman Sacs cooked the books and suddenly Greece was clean enough to join the Euro. Woot. Next they got an easy credit card and maxed it out. Then another credit card to pay off the first one and maxed that one out and remaxed out the first one. Then things turned to E36 M3. They stopped paying their credit cards. The banks, not wanting to get stuck with the debt, got the EU governments to buy up the bad Greek debt so it was off their books, replacing it with good Greek debt that can't be written down. Then the banks "loaned" more money as "bailouts" to Greece to make payments on all the debt, adding that new "loaned" money to the total owed. They did this several times. Meanwhile, Greece is not exactly Germany. They have a few tourist places and some shipping that is not shipping anything because we are in Great Depression 2.0. And they have a slight problem paying taxes there. So the EU says "austerity" is what they need, and these "lush" pensions were slashed from $1200/month to $800/month. Yeah, real "lush" there. And the EU kept "loaning" them more money so they could make their interest payments back to the EU for all that debt, which just keeps getting bigger. Eventually, the Greeks figured they had enough, and that's (maybe) where we are today. Maybe they default tomorrow, maybe it is all just theater again. Oh, and the banks also sold derivatives (side bets) on all this Greek debt to each other and everyone else, so if Greece defaults, someone has to pay someone else and there's the whole question of where that money is going to come from. These side bets are what brought down Lehman and the 2008 crash.

It's a bit more complicated that that, but that's a brief summary, near as I can tell. Read www.zerohedge.com for a blow by blow as it goes down.

fritzsch
fritzsch Dork
6/29/15 1:52 p.m.
HiTempguy wrote:
fritzsch wrote: It wasn't Greece's fault, for the most part. Greece wasn't in a terrible position before joining the Euro
Yes, it is absolutely Greece's fault, and maybe maybe not to your second point. Greece should never have been in the euro. Buts it corrupt populace and politicians led them to the turning point at 2008, and they have done NOTHING to right their own wrongs. Of course, they should never have been bailed out either. The problem is that this is much more than bankruptcy, its the European Union itself at stake. So rather than this being about financials, its about politics more than anything. The European Union will always be a failure of a project unless countries give up their sovereign rights to govern themselves. It would be a cold day in hell for most people. It would be like if Canada decided to join the USA in a union.

I think they have done everything they could to try to meet the incredibly harsh bailout demands. But I do agree they probably shouldn't have joined the euro.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
6/29/15 1:53 p.m.

There's a lot more to it, as usual, that isn't quite being reported because it doesn't promote the "Greeks are lazy wastrels that had it coming" narrative so popular at the moment.

Basically, Greece ended up in this untenable position because the state (that wasn't bankrupt) ended up having to bail out the Greek banks (that were) to make good on loans from (technically insolvent) German banks without appropriate backstops in place. Greek banks were TBTF because they'd taken down other countries' banks, which would have royally messed up the whole EU and especially Germany's export-focused economy.

A big part of the problem is that there is no EU banking union - imagine the US without the FDIC with every state having to bail out its own banks, but with a common currency like now and similar discrepancies in the size and stability of their economies. That would have been a complete disaster in 2008, what we're seeing now in Greece is essentially what would have happened over here under similar circumstances.

A big problem is that German politicians think that every country in the EU should be like Germany (producing lots of stuff that then gets exported, with the local population having had stagnant/declining wages for about 15 years now and thus not being in a position to buy they stuff they make). They forgot that somebody has to buy the E36 M3 and aren't willing to finance the trade deficit that other countries can't make up.

It also appears that there's a bit of a game going on to force new elections in Greece because certain bullies don't like an elected government of a supposedly sovereign nation standing up to them.

Yes, Greece and several other countries never should've been in the Euro, but it's becoming more obvious with some of the stuff that was going on in the 90s that the currency union was set up such that a political union or at least a banking union would've been forced onto the EU by a crisis. Like, now, because there are no resolution mechanisms for this mess at all. That is the real tragedy.

T.J.
T.J. UltimaDork
6/29/15 1:55 p.m.

I can sum the whole mess up in two words:

berkeleying Banksters

fritzsch
fritzsch Dork
6/29/15 1:57 p.m.

Blue is what austerity looks like in the creditors' minds.

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe SuperDork
6/29/15 1:58 p.m.
fritzsch wrote: Austerity does not promote growth.

Also does not help when 51% of the country avoids paying taxes. There is a history of people in large numbers claiming to be blind for benefits with jobs like taxi driver. Public payouts to officials are obscene. Any further away from the EU and they would be a third world country.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/29/15 2:02 p.m.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
6/29/15 2:08 p.m.

In reply to wearymicrobe:

They are, by now. Hospitals are bring-your-own-medication (and have been for a while) and can't necessarily afford to keep the lights on, they have massive unemployment and a large part of the population including lots of university graduates can't even afford enough food, even if they have work.

Yes, the tax collection is a known problem, dating back to the transition from the military dictatorship to democracy. Apparently there were a bunch of back room deals about not really collecting taxes from the top 10% in exchange for them not backing another military coup.

None of this stuff is new and most of it has been festering for a long time, but them giving up their own currency and attempting to fit into the straightjacket that is the Euro brought a lot of them to light.

madmallard
madmallard Dork
6/29/15 2:09 p.m.

its not just that they shouldn'tve been in the euro,

there has been rumbling in the over-promised social extensions of Greece for decades even before the EU membership, and the proof was in the government's borrowing practices. They borrowed money from privately held banks, but then hid that info from the rest of the EU.(they weren't the only ones, but they were overspent the fastest) That means the government WASNT in 'good' financial shape, even if they weren't bankrupt.

Greece DOES have a social spending problem, otherwise there wouldnt've been a need to engage in all that borrowing at the state level.

RX Reven'
RX Reven' GRM+ Memberand Dork
6/29/15 2:10 p.m.

Greece boarders several countries (the biggest one being Turkey) so the solution is obvious.

They can preserve their honor by making good on their commitments while wiping their debt away to get a fresh start simply by selling off some of their land. Invite your neighbors over (Albania, Bulgaria, Turkey, and ???) for an auction and keep selling your boarder land off until you’ve raised enough capital to be debt free.

Done and done…everything is fair and voluntary, nobody gets left holding the bag.

There could even be a lease to own option so if Greece gets its E36 M3 together within say five years, they can buy their land back but if not, it’s gone and some other country that’s smart enough to not make promises it can’t keep can do something productive with the land.

Thoughts?

Added later…

We should do the exact same thing in the US…what’s that, you’re going to renege on giving me the money you forced me to pay into Social Security my whole life back…Berkley you, give me 50 archers of prime Yellowstone real estate and we’ll call your obligation satisfied.

mtn
mtn MegaDork
6/29/15 2:23 p.m.
T.J. wrote: I can sum the whole mess up in two words: berkeleying Banksters

Mostly politicians. And it goes way back to when they were coming out of their military dictatorship.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess MegaDork
6/29/15 3:00 p.m.

One problem the Greeks had was borrowing money to buy military hardware from Germany because they thought (still do) that the Turks were going to invade them. Do the Greeks need battleships, submarines, etc.?

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
6/29/15 4:17 p.m.

In reply to tuna55:

Stop being such an ENTP.

bearmtnmartin
bearmtnmartin GRM+ Memberand Dork
6/29/15 5:37 p.m.

I think Greece is like a local business who defaulted on a half million bucks to my dad, and then turned around and bought all their employees turkeys for Christmas. they didn't pay for the Turkeys either of course but the employees all loved them. They voted Tsipras in don't forget, and no one blinked when they were maxing out the cards on the last Olympics.

Having said that, we are vacationing their next summer because the deals are going to be AWESOME! And I can maybe pump my 25 year old Drachmas back into circulation!

pres589
pres589 UberDork
6/29/15 6:15 p.m.
tuna55 wrote:
fritzsch wrote: Austerity does not promote growth.
That's it? Crashing your country into the ground so hard that it bounces and shatters a few times doesn't promote growth either.

Think about what got this country out of the Great Depression; time, The New Deal, and WWII. Mostly WWII, which from some standpoints looks functionally like a larger New Deal.

fritzsch
fritzsch Dork
6/29/15 6:43 p.m.

From NYTimes

It has been obvious for some time that the creation of the euro was a terrible mistake. Europe never had the preconditions for a successful single currency — above all, the kind of fiscal and banking union that, for example, ensures that when a housing bubble in Florida bursts, Washington automatically protects seniors against any threat to their medical care or their bank deposits.

Leaving a currency union is, however, a much harder and more frightening decision than never entering in the first place, and until now even the Continent’s most troubled economies have repeatedly stepped back from the brink. Again and again, governments have submitted to creditors’ demands for harsh austerity, while the European Central Bank has managed to contain market panic.

But the situation in Greece has now reached what looks like a point of no return. Banks are temporarily closed and the government has imposed capital controls — limits on the movement of funds out of the country. It seems highly likely that the government will soon have to start paying pensions and wages in scrip, in effect creating a parallel currency. And next week the country will hold a referendum on whether to accept the demands of the “troika” — the institutions representing creditor interests — for yet more austerity.

Greece should vote “no,” and the Greek government should be ready, if necessary, to leave the euro.

To understand why I say this, you need to realize that most — not all, but most — of what you’ve heard about Greek profligacy and irresponsibility is false. Yes, the Greek government was spending beyond its means in the late 2000s. But since then it has repeatedly slashed spending and raised taxes. Government employment has fallen more than 25 percent, and pensions (which were indeed much too generous) have been cut sharply. If you add up all the austerity measures, they have been more than enough to eliminate the original deficit and turn it into a large surplus.

So why didn’t this happen? Because the Greek economy collapsed, largely as a result of those very austerity measures, dragging revenues down with it.

And this collapse, in turn, had a lot to do with the euro, which trapped Greece in an economic straitjacket. Cases of successful austerity, in which countries rein in deficits without bringing on a depression, typically involve large currency devaluations that make their exports more competitive. This is what happened, for example, in Canada in the 1990s, and to an important extent it’s what happened in Iceland more recently. But Greece, without its own currency, didn’t have that option.

So have I just made the case for “Grexit” — Greek exit from the euro? Not necessarily. The problem with Grexit has always been the risk of financial chaos, of a banking system disrupted by panicked withdrawals and of business hobbled both by banking troubles and by uncertainty over the legal status of debts. That’s why successive Greek governments have acceded to austerity demands, and why even Syriza, the ruling leftist coalition, was willing to accept the austerity that has already been imposed. All it asked for was, in effect, a standstill on further austerity.

But the troika was having none of it. It’s easy to get lost in the details, but the essential point now is that Greece has been presented with a take-it-or-leave-it offer that is effectively indistinguishable from the policies of the past five years.

This is, and presumably was intended to be, an offer Alexis Tsipras, the Greek prime minister, can’t accept, because it would destroy his political reason for being. The purpose must therefore be to drive him from office, which will probably happen if Greek voters fear confrontation with the troika enough to vote yes next week.

But they shouldn’t, for three reasons. First, we now know that ever-harsher austerity is a dead end: after five years Greece is in worse shape than ever. Second, much and perhaps most of the feared chaos from Grexit has already happened. With banks closed and capital controls imposed, there’s not that much more damage to be done.

Finally, acceding to the troika’s ultimatum would represent the final abandonment of any pretense of Greek independence. Don’t be taken in by claims that troika officials are just technocrats explaining to the ignorant Greeks what must be done. These supposed technocrats are in fact fantasists who have disregarded everything we know about macroeconomics, and have been wrong every step of the way. This isn’t about analysis, it’s about power — the power of the creditors to pull the plug on the Greek economy, which persists as long as euro exit is considered unthinkable.

So it’s time to put an end to this unthinkability. Otherwise Greece will face endless austerity, and a depression with no hint of an end.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
6/29/15 7:06 p.m.
fritzsch wrote: It wasn't Greece's fault, for the most part. As part of loan agreements and other such agreements, other Eurozone countries, Germany being the biggest player, required Greece to accept harsh austerity packages.

So, you are saying it wasn't Greece's fault that they borrowed more money than they could pay back?

Huh??

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