GRM - Gran Turismo 5 Racing League - Series 3

BradLTL wrote:

T.J. wrote: Come on Season 5!

Any suggestions? I am thinking along these terms... "Big hair bands" - cars from the 80s "Versus" - a 2 car spec series.

I like it! One of these days we'll have to have a true no-holds-barred series, though. That might work with the 80s stipulation. Would give some of us who are better at tweaking than driving a chance against the "drivers."

What are you thinking for the Versus series? Evo vs. WRX comes to mind, but i feel like the game is biased towards the Evo pretty heavily. Might not be a big deal with a weight/HP cap, though.

BradLTL wrote:

T.J. wrote: Come on Season 5!

Any suggestions? I am thinking along these terms... "Big hair bands" - cars from the 80s "Versus" - a 2 car spec series.

Yes, so long as the R32 Skyline and Z32 aren't allowed. Those two cars ruin everyones E36 M3 when they sneak into 80s races.

If we do this, I would have to redo my drift lancer from 83.

Other than that, I had ideas from about halfway through series 3, but I've forgotten them. They might have been good ones too.

Grizz wrote:

BradLTL wrote:

T.J. wrote: Come on Season 5!

Any suggestions? I am thinking along these terms... "Big hair bands" - cars from the 80s "Versus" - a 2 car spec series.

Yes, so long as the R32 Skyline and Z32 aren't allowed. Those two cars ruin everyones E36 M3 when they sneak into 80s races. If we do this, I would have to redo my drift lancer from 83. Other than that, I had ideas from about halfway through series 3, but I've forgotten them. They might have been good ones too.

Lol forgot about the 89 Z32. Yeah... that's ugly.

BradLTL wrote:

T.J. wrote: Come on Season 5!

Any suggestions? I am thinking along these terms... "Big hair bands" - cars from the 80s "Versus" - a 2 car spec series.

I do! I do!

GT 300: limited to around 325 hp but possibly built to a PP number to be decided after a proper amount of testing. I'm thinking RH tires. There are many cars to choose from that fit this category and is still my favorite class to drive.

Tuner Cars & Concepts: This also gives you a huge number of cool cars to choose from. I'll bet the fields would be very diverse. These two should probably be built to a PP number on RH tires.

I've mentioned this idea twice before and it never got a comment from anyone. Would someone please give your opinion on this? A cool, or that sucks, or meh, or whatever would be appreciated.

I'm sure we all have our preferences on what cars we prefer to use. I'd like to hear everyone's ideas.

I like the GT300 idea, sounds fun.

I don't know about the tuners & concepts though, mostly because there isn't much playing with parts to be had.

Ooh, I remembered one of the easier ideas I had, 500pp class. Sports or Race tires, dunno, but I run 500 races with one of my friends and they're damn fun. I think I have more than 160 cars tuned at that PP level too.

How about a REAL race car series at some point? (Not talking F1 or any of that.)

Like JGTC-style, Touring cars, that sort of thing. Cars recognizable as what they started out as.

I've been itching to use the Woodone Supra against you guys.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: How about a REAL race car series at some point? (Not talking F1 or any of that.) Like JGTC-style, Touring cars, that sort of thing. Cars recognizable as what they started out as. I've been itching to use the Woodone Supra against you guys.

I've been thinking about that one too but wouldn't they be a real SOB to drive with no TC or ABS allowed?

Graefin10 wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: How about a REAL race car series at some point? (Not talking F1 or any of that.) Like JGTC-style, Touring cars, that sort of thing. Cars recognizable as what they started out as. I've been itching to use the Woodone Supra against you guys.

I've been thinking about that one too but wouldn't they be a real SOB to drive with no TC or ABS allowed?

Not really much worse than the Z06 was i don't think. They have a LOT of downforce, and it'd be up to you if you wanted to try to control an insane-o powerhouse, or something that handled.

The Woodone is about at my limits of what i can consistently control with the controller.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

You might be right, but go drive a race or two without TC and ABS and get back to us. I'll give it a shot myself ASAP. I think it would make a good series.

Graefin10 wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: You might be right, but go drive a race or two without TC and ABS and get back to us. I'll give it a shot myself ASAP. I think it would make a good series.

The last time i raced with you (when i jumped OVER you on that crazy course) i was running without TC or ABS.

You were in a JGTC NSX, i was in the Woodone.

In reply to T.J.:

Yea, my thoughts are that I would only open a small number of slots for each car and it would be first come / first serve from a registration point. As those slots filled up I would open another couple slots for each car so the field would be balanced. Also, spec does not mean stock, so there would likely be some tuning allowed on each car to get to a fair competition level. The cars I am considering are:

• ZR-1 vs GTR: both are supercars in the $100k price range and have set similar times around the 'ring (IRL)
• 458 vs MP12-4C: Ferrari vs McLaren anyone?
• WRX vs Evo: the GT classic
• Camaro vs Mustang: the redneck showdown

Graefin10 wrote: GT 300: limited to around 325 hp but possibly built to a PP number to be decided after a proper amount of testing. I'm thinking RH tires. There are many cars to choose from that fit this category and is still my favorite class to drive.

That is fairly similar to the original GRM class from Series 1. Although it was limited to 250-300? Don't remember exactly and am too lazy to dig up the thread. I actually wouldn't mind bringing that class back.

I don't like PP, because they are flawed. On high speed courses, you can make a faster car with lower PP by just manipulating downforce. RoC is a PP race, we'll see how that shakes out, but at this point I am not a believer.

On tires... I know that everyone wants to run Race tires because they are faster, but they hide driver ability. You'll be better for driving on worse tires. Sports tires I think are the best balance. They teach you how to control your throttle and braking, as well as how to handle your car on the limit. I could stomp the gas in the Z06 RM and barely break traction most of the time. I think of tires the same as I think of ABS, they show driver skill not car performance.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

Graefin10 wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: You might be right, but go drive a race or two without TC and ABS and get back to us. I'll give it a shot myself ASAP. I think it would make a good series.

The last time i raced with you (when i jumped OVER you on that crazy course) i was running without TC or ABS. You were in a JGTC NSX, i was in the Woodone. Yes, I do remember, that was a trip.. Those guys were changing tracks and rules so fast I found it frustrating to keep up. I VASTLY prefer racing with you guys who go balls to the wall but have some respect for the other competitors. When I watched the replay of the race last night between Grizz, Air, and I, it was obvious that we all were racing hard but trying to give each other room. There were many door handle to door handle runs through the corners without touching.

BradLTL wrote:

Graefin10 wrote: GT 300: limited to around 325 hp but possibly built to a PP number to be decided after a proper amount of testing. I'm thinking RH tires. There are many cars to choose from that fit this category and is still my favorite class to drive.

That is fairly similar to the original GRM class from Series 1. Although it was limited to 250-300? Don't remember exactly and am too lazy to dig up the thread. I actually wouldn't mind bringing that class back.

I like the sound of that class as well.

BradLTL wrote: I don't like PP, because they are flawed. On high speed courses, you can make a faster car with lower PP by just manipulating downforce. RoC is a PP race, we'll see how that shakes out, but at this point I am not a believer.

I dunno, I've beaten race cars with a 330i and a 4th gen camaro at 500. Most faster cars lose way too much power going down to a lower PP. And besides, I thought you didn't want the engine limiter/racecars/tuners and the like in classes like that? That basically means everyone would have to build cars up to whatever PP you set the limit to.

BradLTL wrote: On tires... I know that everyone wants to run Race tires because they are faster, but they hide driver ability. You'll be better for driving on worse tires. Sports tires I think are the best balance. They teach you how to control your throttle and braking, as well as how to handle your car on the limit. I could stomp the gas in the Z06 RM and barely break traction most of the time. I think of tires the same as I think of ABS, they show driver skill not car performance.

I don't really mind the tires, althought my Z06 would destroy race softs if I got on the gas in a corner, or leaving a corner, or entering a corner, or even looking at a corner. I hate that car so much sometimes. But yeah, sports aren't that bad. Although it would be fun to do a lowish performance race like Graefin suggested on sports, you could build some really great handling monsters for tight courses.

Oh, I have an idea, how about a series of nothing but custom tracks? The week before the race, the host makes one and shares it so we can practice, then race, then the next one gets shared. Or, since we are all friends, everyone shares a track and everyone grabs it. That might work.

I have no idea why GT5 only lets you share one track at a time though.

GT300: I think we should try some sort of PP based race at some point and make sure there is a mix of tracks. Setting up a PP car allows you to work the spectrum between light and nimble and heavy and fast.

Vs Race: As an extension to that (maybe a bad idea) is Team Racing. Setup each team as different cars, each team with a very distinct color (assign drivers to team before race). Would be fun on the ovals and such, not much difference on other tracks (unless we want a "rubbin" racing series).

Switching up assigning drivers to cars in the VS would be fun also. Basically it would be like doing a statistically controlled study to see what car is better.

I still like the idea of forcing the winner of a race to pick a new car.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I still like the idea of forcing the winner of a race to pick a new car.

How about last place driver picks car for first place driver?

Oh, I was also going to note on Race type cars and ABS etc:

This is one reason I don't like the Race cars is that with all the downforce and sticky tires, there is VERY little drift (in the traditional sense) to those cars, they are pretty much point and shoot. Takes a lot of fun (and challenge) out of the driving. I can see how someone running with a controller would find them much more enjoyable though. For some reason the Z06 did not suffer from this much, the reason I liked it so much. Also, because of the speed of some, it is very hard to be precise driving them.

RealMiniDriver wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I still like the idea of forcing the winner of a race to pick a new car.

How about last place driver picks car for first place driver?

I like that...

Or we can have the Top Gear style of it... have a spare car sitting in the background that nobody wants to drive, but if you win, you drive it.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Or we can have the Top Gear style of it... have a spare car sitting in the background that nobody wants to drive, but if you win, you drive it.

I was just thinking this exact same thing while waiting for the refresh!

I do have a fully loaded Lolvo 240 GLT for next series that could get passed around......

Brad Wrote:

"I don't like PP, because they are flawed. On high speed courses, you can make a faster car with lower PP by just manipulating downforce. RoC is a PP race, we'll see how that shakes out, but at this point I am not a believer."

To counteract that possibility we could just prepare a list of eligible cars, much like you did with the admin. spreadsheet. I personally estimate I own 30 ish such cars for each of the two classes I suggested. I think the key is to have wt./hp in the same ballpark but for added diversity I'd like to see it include all drivetrain combinations and the use of PP would theoretically eliminate the advantages or dissadvantages of certain cars. Yes, this next race could possibly be revealing on whether or not PP levels the playing field. I've entered quite a few of the 450 PP races I told you about recently and it seems to work there. A lite nimble car will usually do better on tight tracks and visa versa.

Brad Also said:

"On tires... I know that everyone wants to run Race tires because they are faster, but they hide driver ability. You'll be better for driving on worse tires. Sports tires I think are the best balance. They teach you how to control your throttle and braking, as well as how to handle your car on the limit. I could stomp the gas in the Z06 RM and barely break traction most of the time. I think of tires the same as I think of ABS, they show driver skill not car performance."

The upcoming GT race will give us all more insight regarding the use of RH tires. I understand what you mean Brad, but IMO better tires provides more equality between the wheel and controller users. I know from experience that the controller can be used to get CLOSE to the control of a good quality wheel but definately NOT totally be equal. IMO the reason is that the distance for a wheel and the pedals to travel are greater than that of the triggers and the sticks of a controller giving a much more precise input for the car to respond to. Never having used a good quality wheel I can't be absolutely certain of that but I have a question for you wheel users - why did you buy a wheel and are you better with it than the controller? If not, why don't you return to the controller?

Regarding the race winner having to choose a different car for the next race: Assuming the rest of you also have many of the cars for the two classes I suggested, simply have a rule that he must select a different car for the next race. Or, as Air suggested, he must use the same car but have a wide diversity of tracks. He might kick booty @ a track with long straights with a powerful but heavy car but struggle on the tight tracks with the same car. I think Apex.'s experience with the FTO proved that to be true.

Found my SBC car! http://www.ironchefimports.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=451

Yeah, i'm kinda glad too it's over, my Alfa was fun and all but just couldn't keep up with anyone else lol and as for the ZO6's...yeah, I just never caught a race haha

I AM looking forward to GT and Saloon and as for the next season, I'm up for 80's or an actual RM series. It doesn't matter to me! Maybe for the VS or the other series we can have teams or have two classes, one for higher horsepower and one for lower and you have two people on a team.

Lots of good ideas here. I would say that since a good number of them require a lot of research/testing to get the ruleset/eligible car list setup what we need is someone to jump on it and make it happen. Brad keeps telling us that he wishes to pass the mantle to someone else...who is going to take it and run with it?

I have a feeling that if you have an idea for a class or two and really want to see us run it, that all you have to do is volunteer to take over the administration/hosting duties and you can make the call on what the next series will be.

Graefin10 wrote: I have a question for you wheel users - why did you buy a wheel and are you better with it than the controller? If not, why don't you return to the controller?

I started GT5:Prologue with my tried and true Momo wheel. But the lack of being able to program the buttons made me move to a new wheel. Did I want a G25/27? Sure, but I am also not going to spend and entire season of autocross entry fees for a wheel. So I went with a Driving Force GT (DFGT) wheel. It had the PS3 buttons directly on the wheel and was developed by PD for GT5. Plus I bought it for $80 new.

My only complaint is the paddle shift. It has buttons (like Mercedes SLR) and I prefer full paddles (like Ferrari).

DFGT:

Momo:

T.J. wrote: I have a feeling that if you have an idea for a class or two and really want to see us run it, that all you have to do is volunteer to take over the administration/hosting duties and you can make the call on what the next series will be.

Yep.