GRM - Gran Turismo 5 Racing League - Series 4

RealMiniDriver wrote: ...Then, I did five laps with ABS at 1 and brake bias at default. My worst lap set this way was better than my best lap with ABS off, even the one red lap (zagged when I should have zigged - Doh!)...

No offense, but I need someone who is good at controller driving without ABS to do the comparison.

You are not a good control subject

On another note, I did get to try Spa the other night. It is definitely a higher speed track, but it is not too hard to get used to. There are few trick semi blind corners, but it seems to be a pretty decent track for passing. That famous snaky uphill corner is great fun with a bit of high speed oversteer. I think we were running it reversed because I thought that was a downhill corner.

Not a great track for a RUF though, too fast (my BTR KILLS at Autumn Ring). I need to try using ABS with the RUF though, I was getting out braked like mad at SPA.

Who of us actually uses the controller? RMD, Nick, Grae, and I. That's it, right?

I'd say Nick or Grae should do the testing.

I know i'm faster with ABS on, but still not enough to be a front runner anyways.

New rule proposal:

Victory Car - Wherein the winner of each round must use said "victory car" for the next round. The victory car will be the least capable car eligible for the class.

So, if we were to apply that to GT the victory car would be the FT-86; in Saloon it would be the Volvo 240 Estate.

The assumption would be that you wouldn't win driving the "victory car" (I don't know maybe you would) and then you would return to your normal car for the next round.

Thoughts?

Have you been watching Top Gear?

Sounds a bit like the VW bug that was the penalty car that followed them across Africa.

(can't find a pic of the car)

Interesting idea. I am wondering if it will be a major bummer the driver in the victory car (no one to race with).

...should I tell you about the Honey Badger now?..

aircooled wrote: On another note, I did get to try Spa the other night. It is definitely a higher speed track, but it is not too hard to get used to. There are few trick semi blind corners, but it seems to be a pretty decent track for passing.

Eau Rouge is fast and tricky... I only hit it flat out 1 time and it was a bit of a pucker factor.

I took a couple races at it today. It is awesome! It is great fun. I ran in a Japanese SuperGT room for awhile, and then went and ran in a British room running 453bhp/1300kg street cars. All the races were excellent. The British room was full and everyone was pretty competitive. I finished ranging from 2nd to 8th in each race and had cars in sight both directions.

I was the only driver in both rooms not using ABS. In particular I noticed I would be out-braked in certain corners and they would overtake; but they were not running significantly different lap times. In fact, I could usually "slow-in, fast-out" them and retake the position on route to the next corner.

The GTR Stealth is awesome to drive. I won 2 out of 4 races in it.

aircooled wrote: Have you been watching Top Gear?

Or the America bike in Vietnam...

BradLTL wrote: ...Eau Rouge is fast and tricky... I only hit it flat out 1 time and it was a bit of a pucker factor.

Yes. Try it in a Ruf BTR setup to run around Autumn ring fast!! Tricky, Tricky! We were only doing 500pp but it still quite exiting!

aircooled wrote:

RealMiniDriver wrote: ...Then, I did five laps with ABS at 1 and brake bias at default. My worst lap set this way was better than my best lap with ABS off, even the one red lap (zagged when I should have zigged - Doh!)...

No offense, but I need someone who is good at controller driving without ABS to do the comparison. You are not a good control subject

Why is my comparison not relevant? To ABS or not ABS was brought up by someone who has difficulty without ABS:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I just can't hack it with no ABS. Every single corner, even with my brakes turned all the way down, it's just one big lurid slide into it, which turns my tires red, which means i don't hook on the way out. I had all four corners damaged on my car by halfway through the first lap.

If anything, Celica and I should try to get together for a test session to try ABS and no ABS. He gets frustrated with a banged up car, as do I.

To see if it makes a good driver (Nick or Grae) better is irrelevant.

If it helps a bad driver (I'm not singling you out, Cel, I suck) stay off the wall, maybe he'd enjoy racing more and be inclined to stay in the race, rather than dropping out and hurling the damned controller at the wall.

Typical scenario: Celica would damage his car, limp it around to the pit for repair, only to smash it again halfway around the next lap. I'd manage to get a good lead on him. He'd be sucking wind, DFL, and say "berkeley it, I'm out". Then a lap later, I'd kiss the wall, pit, only to rack it up again. If Cel would have hung in there, we could have raced for a few laps (until one of us bends it up again). Instead, I get frustrated as well, and say, "berkeley it, I'm out".

Theoretical scenario, with ABS: Celica and I mosey around the track, trading positions, paint, etc. We finish the race in last and next to last. BUT, we had a good time.

Does any of this make sense? It's not like Celica and I will instantly become front runners, if at all.

^What he said.

I'm not sure what it is with the GRM leagues, though... maybe it's the cars.

Grizz in particular has raced with me a few times outside of GRM. I'm not exactly slow.

RMD, i think what Air was saying was that we were just going to allow ABS for the controller drivers, and wanted to make sure that it wouldn't pose an unfair advantage for the one or two controller drivers that are often fast in the first place. If Nick or Grae in particular all of a sudden gained 2-3 seconds a lap with ABS, there'd be a problem.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: ...i think what Air was saying was that we were just going to allow ABS for the controller drivers, and wanted to make sure that it wouldn't pose an unfair advantage for the one or two controller drivers that are often fast in the first place...

Yes, we don't want to make Grea or F40 bullet proof!! Making you faster... that's the idea, we want you to be faster.

The cars in the series have been (from what I have seen) been setup to be intentionally hard to drive. This makes it much more challenging and rewarding to me, but I have a wheel. It also greatly increases the chance of mistakes by the drivers, which makes the races much more interesting. (Watching Hunter blast away in front not to be seen again = Not so much fun. Having Grea put him in a wall by mistake and have him almost catch me at the end = Much more fun)

For me, the cars can be very hard to deal with when we start out, but after getting used to them, you find you can do things that less "extreme" setups wouldn't allow (mainly related to high slip angle / drift type maneuvers) which makes them much more rewarding to drive. You will pretty much never find a online room setup this way, and if you set one up, good luck keeping people in it.

Yep! I'm ok with it... i just find some easier than others. I would have been a lot better in the MX5 series if my internet connection at the time was better. I wasn't horribly slow in that. Same with Z06, really.

It's just these high power, low traction series that i have a problem with, and ABS is really only half my problem.

First chance I get I'll be glad to compare lap times with and without ABS.

I got a "hoyer" (engine hoist for people) to lift my mom into her wheel chair. I hope this will end up giving me more time to have a life. Also, it should help keep me from injuring my neck or back. Two professionals told me that I was on the way toward doing that and I had to stop lifting her the way I was.

Re: the buzz about ABS etc., the main thing I see is to provide an enjoyable experience for all of us who compete in the GRM series. I think we're on the right track to accomplish that. Oh, there's one more def. controller user that I know of and that's T.J. He said he hopes to begin to be active again soon. I have really missed him because he and I practiced a lot together and were often close in performance. I don't know about any of the other sometimes competitors.

I watched most of the GT replay and watching Spy was revealing. He used the whole track lap after lap, corner after corner. No big deal on some tracks but at TM forward or reverse it's very chancy. He did make a few mistakes but with the lead he had it didn't cost him a position. I've mentioned this before, but watching Air and Apex, as well as Brad helped me learn to drive better. That's why I actually want to have faster guys to learn from. If someone consistently beats you, save those replays and watch closely with the question, "what is he doing different"? I watched my own replay and my lines were very very conservative. Most of that was my state of mind but part of it was because of the mistakes I made during the little practice I had time for. I try to push it during practice to see what I can get away with and then back it down a notch or two for the race. Finishing the race with no damage or penalties is my goal.

Another thing I noticed in the replay was that I wasn't the only one to slide into the wall after the long tunnel. I'm quite sure I was braking at the same point I had been. Maybe it was the tires or a change in the physics.

I also wanted to see the passes I made to make sure they were clean. The only one I saw that may have caused a problem for anyone was when I passed Celica in the 90 degree rt. hander on L1. I guess you'd call it T3. I turned in on his outside and it looked like his front end washed out and was headed into my side. It appeared that he tried to put it into a drift angle to keep from hitting me. How about it Celica? What did happen?

I took the M3 back to TM Rev. and compared lap times with and without ABS. I'm approx 2 sec. faster with than without. However, I'm still about 1.5 sec. slower than Spyhunter's qual. lap time and I don't think I can go much faster. Not yet anyway.

An example of where the speed is coming from is T3. With no ABS I brake and drop one gear before the crown of the hill, then let off for the top of the crown, then back on the brakes to drop two more gears as I turn in. With ABS, I don't brake until after the crown and if careful can trail brake during turn in. Also, I can adjust the car's angle relative to the edge of the road in a corner by tapping the brakes or riding them with no chance of locking them up and going off track. Those two advantages were immediately noticed. I was able to use more of the road also.

The truth is, I expected a bigger difference.

Graefin10 wrote: I also wanted to see the passes I made to make sure they were clean. The only one I saw that may have caused a problem for anyone was when I passed Celica in the 90 degree rt. hander on L1. I guess you'd call it T3. I turned in on his outside and it looked like his front end washed out and was headed into my side. It appeared that he tried to put it into a drift angle to keep from hitting me. How about it Celica? What did happen?

I really have no idea, to be honest. I don't remember, i've slept since then.

I don't really remember anyone messing me up, so i'm sure it was just me.

Graefin10 wrote: I took the M3 back to TM Rev. and compared lap times with and without ABS. I'm approx 2 sec. faster with than without. However, I'm still about 1.5 sec. slower than Spyhunter's qual. lap time and I don't think I can go much faster. Not yet anyway. An example of where the speed is coming from is T3. With no ABS I brake and drop one gear before the crown of the hill, then let off for the top of the crown, then back on the brakes to drop two more gears as I turn in. With ABS, I don't brake until after the crown and if careful can trail brake during turn in. Also, I can adjust the car's angle relative to the edge of the road in a corner by tapping the brakes or riding them with no chance of locking them up and going off track. Those two advantages were immediately noticed. I was able to use more of the road also. The truth is, I expected a bigger difference.

Was your testing done online?

Celica asked: "Was your testing done online?"

No, but I had previous times to compare it to. I have been keeping notes on best times, gearing, and anything I think is related to the weeks race. Right now it looks like I'll be lucky to show up. Time will tell. I'll try it online today if possible.

Air is right, the cars are setup to be hard to drive, but rewarding when you get it right.

Why don't we make the next race ABS optional for RMD, Celica, etc. Air, Hunter, Grae (who typically run up front) will run without. That is. The only way we will know how it will affect the series.

BradLTL wrote: Air is right, the cars are setup to be hard to drive, but rewarding when you get it right. Why don't we make the next race ABS optional for RMD, Celica, etc. Air, Hunter, Grae (who typically run up front) will run without. That is. The only way we will know how it will affect the series.

I'd like to have the option on whether or not I use it for a few races. If something bizarre happened like I started giving Hunter and Air a fit or even winning I'd give it up.

I actually think it would be interesting if RMD and Celica used ABS and I didn't to see if I could still run with them. I know that using it would keep me from having accidents and no doubt would them also. I would give up track positions to have a good muti car battle any time. Running alone is OK but no comparison with having to ward off an attack from the rear while giving the guy ahead of you some excitment.

Now if everyone starts running off and leaving me I'm turning it on if allowed.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Who of us actually uses the controller? RMD, Nick, Grae, and I. That's it, right? I know i'm faster with ABS on, but still not enough to be a front runner anyways.

I use a controller.

I did some abs/no abs testing in my lounge with the DB9. First thing, the car was great, no massive understeer, subdued tailhappiness unless I asked for, basically the car was acting like it did at the start of the series instead of how it's acting now. I have no idea why.

Second thing, I am much faster with abs, but less consistent. No abs: 1:36.590 pushing hard and I didn't get damage until my tires died on lap 6. With abs: 1:32.832 pushing hard on the first lap, so almost 4 seconds a lap faster, but I got damage on lap 2 and again on lap 5. Which I figure is because of how much later I'm braking, I only get damage exiting a corner with abs, instead of everywhere without it.

I heard my name?

oh, i've gotten used to no abs, you should see me with it on....

honey badgers?

Mndsm and i may have come up with something brilliant.

Teams racing. Teams or 2 or three.

One Diahatsu Midget, the other member(s) use the X2010.

First TEAM to get all cars across the finish line wins. Foul play IS encouraged.

yeah I tried to join that lot...

NickF40 wrote: yeah I tried to join that lot...

We'll try again this week, this time with me hosting. I find that when i host, you don't have connection issues.

It was a TON of fun. We got the Tank Car to 220mph, an OG VW Beetle to 202mph (in reverse!), and punted the daihatsu midget OVER a pit wall.