Haggling with the insurance company

Looking for input from people who have successfully gotten more money out of the insurance company after they were lowballed.

My girlfriend's car was totaled recently by a uninsured driver. It was parked at the time, so no one was hurt. To add insult to injury, we had just had the transmission rebuilt 2k miles before the accident.

Her insurance company (the huge one with the irritating loud mascot that's nota gecko) came back with an offer that we feel is lower than it should be by roughly $1000-1500 (which is quite a bit when the car books for $5-6k).

The insurance company is claiming preexisting damage is lowering the value of the car, but I think some of the damage they call preexisting was caused by the wreck. Not only that, but I think their estimates to repair it are higher than they should be.

We're not in a time crunch here, because my gf is driving my mom's Miata and can keep doing so for a while.

My questions: 1) Should the rebuilt trans affect the value of the car? It is warrantied and we have documentation that it was rebuilt 2k miles ago. Insurance company rep says she called three dealers and they all said no. I'm thinking it should at least affect the salvage value they can get for it when they part it out.

2) How do I dispute the preexisting damage? The pictures they have shown me are worthless, and I looked at the car in person and still cannot find some of this supposed damage.

3) Just how much room do claims reps have to wiggle on a property settlement? I've been told by semi-reputable sources that there's not much they can move from the initial number they offer.

4) Are there any good tactics to get them to buckle? (Side note: I'm a lawyer, but I know NOTHING about insurance.) I initially tried to avoid playing the lawyer card, but the first letter I wrote didn't get them to move, and for that matter the second letter I wrote (this time on my firm letterhead) didn't get them to move. I'm willing to file a small claims suit if that will get what we need, but I'd rather not if we can avoid it.

If worst comes to worst, we'll accept the lowball, cancel her policy, and tell everyone we know not to use this company. (Her mom has already called and threatened this, to no avail).

The real irony is that they're probably going to lose a customer over $1000, which they'd make from ten months worth of her premium payments.

I do know that a buddy of mine was able to show proof of work that was done very recent to a car that was written off (unlicensed and uninsured driver ran a red light and plowed in to him) and the company upped the check they cut him. It was State Farm so perhaps what company you are dealing with does have something to do with it. He just had to produce some documentation.

the co with the NationWide coverage tried to lowball me with my '88 Accord (in '98) I had proof of $2000 worth of work finished the week before + I had the bill from the state for my property tax (their offer was less than the tax value) after a few rounds on the phone they finally said for me to send a copy of each (we had verbally discussed the (to me acceptable payout) before I could get the letter in the mail I received a check for the "agreed amt"... go figure

In my experience (as a third party insurance administrator) I would have either no or very little wiggle room on property damage but a fairly decent amount of wiggle room in bodily injury. Basically they would say the car is worth $1500 and that was it.

I've already sent documentation for the trans rebuild. It was right at $2k and done literally 2000 miles and a month before the wreck. There's a clause in the insurance policy that says that work done beforehand "may" affect the value. She has said it didn't. FWIW, I went to two dealers today looking for replacement cars for her and both of them told me it probably wouldn't affect what they would ask for the car.

My case is kind of special: I got lowballed on my 88 Saleen. They wanted to give me $3500 - which would amount to an 88 Mustang LX. I asked them to try to find another 88 Saleen numbered 695 of 703 with documentation stating it was completely unique signed by Steve Saleen. These were the documents I had submitted when I asked for insurance. Followed that up with receipts for all of the parts and labor put into the car. Walked away with $13K. $5K more than I paid.

Go to all the dealers in the mid-west with cars like yours, and get their sale prices. Watch Craig, Autotrader, local paper... You will either find they are low balling you, or maybe you are out of line on your expectations. The trans may raise the value by half of what you spent on it.

Or, you could try out waiting them. The file is on somebodies desk, and along about year end, someone may be under pressure to close this file. If you ignore them, and politley say no every time they call you, eventually they will have to talk to you.

Or not. Insurance companies have only two directions to their staff- Accept premiums, pay out nothing.

Happened a few time at our house. Once for a 1985 Honda Civic 1500S (ins. estimate - $150), once for a 1988 Toyota Camery (ins estimate $500?) and also about to happen for a 1996 Saturn SL2. (so far a couple hundred)

All were accident cars and the prices they gave us for the pay out were pitiful. (see above) So my dad gets on the phone, and next thing you know, each got over a $1000 all things said and done.

Show em receipts, show them similar cars for sale in ads, try telling em that you cant get a replacement car for XXX dollar amount and the car was all you had and play that game a bit. Cant hurt.

FWIW, the receipts and ads of similar cars is what made them give us more.

It was not your fault. You have money into it you deserve money from it.

File suit immediately. Get the file out of the hands of the adjuster and into the hands of a more reasonable person, the insurance lawyer. Generally, letter writing only benefits the person who has the checkbook.

I've had luck getting fair money, but you have to fight for it. One time, documentation was all it took. The other time, I basically waited them out.

I agree that if you have time wait.

You may have a hard time getting a lawyer. Generally they want around 33% of a settlement. Noone wants to pay that on a property damage claim.

The trans is questionable. The car was basically worthless with a trashed transmission. If you were to sell it the day before it was wrecked what do you think that rebuilt trans would be worth? I put $1300 in a the rebuilt trans in my buick. It raised the value back to what I would have been able to sell it for before the trans took a dump.

I had a car - they got us a rental, so we had leverage as they were paying for the rental each day. I submitted receipts for the new exhaust, the new tires, blah blah blah and equivalent cars which didn't have that stuff from local internet stuff. Haggled for like two weeks but it was worth it. I had just installed air conditioning about 3 months prior.

On the transmission, you'll have basically no haggle ability afforded to you by that. As Greg mentioned, without the trans, its worthless... Sure, it increases the value of the car (by more than what you paid) but it doesn't increase the value of the car past what it was if it didn't need the transmission.

If that made any sense.

Read the policy real well. In mine, there was a clause about going to arbitration should a dispute arise. Now is the time to get your agent involved. They do have a bit of stroke with the company, and will do whatever it takes sometimes to avoid having this go to arbitration. Be prepared to counter anything they throw at you about values, depreciation, etc., with plenty of written estimates before and after from good sources. It may cost a bit and take time but it will be worth it. The ins.co. wants a quick settlement. You want a fair settlement. Back up any claims and estimates and values in writing, and make sure you only send them copies. If you decide to go to arbitration, don't talk to them for a while.Don't forget these people do this for a living and most do it well. Be realistic in your expectations, but you can be as ridiculous as they are at first. After being told I had their final offer, take it or leave it, I countered with my final offer, before going to arbitration, take it or leave it. I had my check in 36 hours.

fastmiata wrote: File suit immediately. Get the file out of the hands of the adjuster and into the hands of a more reasonable person, the insurance lawyer. Generally, letter writing only benefits the person who has the checkbook.

The insurance company lawyers have virtually no say to absolutely no say, depending on the company. The $$ decisions are solely with the adjuster; the lawyer may or may not make recommendations that the adjuster can follow or not.

I too am a lawyer and I do personal injury work so this is close to what I do, but I don't get involved in property damage claims because cars are worth what they are worth. I agree on the advice to look for comparable vehicles for sale. If the insurance company won't pay what you think you can prove it's worth and that amount is less than the small claims jurisdictional limit sue the insurance company there. The small claims judge may be swayed by the $2k in recent work more than the insurance company.

Well, as the guy who writes those checks for wrecked cars, I know a little.

The trans: it's BS that it does not affect the value. It won't add 2 grand back into the car, but it should add a few hundred if it's a recent item. Dealer quotes are the most useless valuation system in the world...you think dealers really give a crap when an insurance person calls for a quote? Back when I had to use those on some claims, I started making them up myself so that they would average out to the book value because I got tired of calling 6 dealers and having 5 not want to talk to me. Use the old 2 car argument: if 2 identical cars are for sale and one has a rebuilt trans and one does not, which one would you buy? That makes the one with the new trans worth more, right?

Pre-existing damage is a legit deduction (use the 2 car scenario above again). However, how are they computing the damage? The cost to repair the prior damage is not how much it diminishes the value of the car. If it's more than 5-7 years old we write a very minimal repair estimate and then usually figure 50% of it as a deduction for prior. It's assumed on a used vehicle there will be some wear/tear so only actual physical damage beyond the norm should be deducted.

Find advertised comparable vehicles that support your value and send them copies. That's one of the best ways to do it.

If all else fails, don't be afraid to take these morons to small claims court. They'll send an attorney who most likely doesn't know squat about PD claims. Every time I've gone (maybe 3 times) over a value dispute the insurer has never won, even when blatantly right and documented to the nth degree. Judges just don't like insurance companies and will stick it to them even when they are right. BTDT.

ddavidv-

thanks so much! THIS is exactly what I needed.

Your statement about the trans mirrors my thinking....I realize we're not talking $2000 worth of value. In my initial demand letter I pulled $750 out of my ass as the increase in value. I think $500 is probably more realistic. But you've definitely quantified my muddy thought process about why this should increase the value of the car.

The preexisting damage deduction they are using is for four small hail dings ( three of which are practically unnoticeable) and refinishing the front and rear bumpers. Prior to the collision, the front bumper had some rock chips. That's it. The rear bumper legitimately does have some pretty significant scuffs that would justify repainting the whole thing. However, they are quoting time to remove both bumpers in order to clean them up and respray them, and to remove the headliner in order to paintlessly repair the minor hail dings. They're quoting $1400 in repairs to do this and multiplying by .80 to figure an $1100 dimunition of value. I'm thinking their numbers seem ridiculously high.

There's no mandatory arbitration clause in the contract...there is an optional procedure that sounds like arbitration (each side hires an "umpire" to value the car and they try to work out an agreeable value for both sides), but the clause expressly states that neither side gives up any rights by using the process.

I'm thinking small claims court might be a good idea, if it does nothing else than get them to knuckle under and up the settlement. I still need to research the process. I have heard that in some states (I don't know about MO yet) you can claim double or triple damages plus attorneys fees if you can show the judge that the insurance company deliberately tried to lowball you...that would preclude filing in small claims, though, and mean real court.

Look around. I am betting that you can find an attorney in these tough economic times that will be interested in your case for a fixed fee and far less than 33%. The last time that I tried this strategy in my practice, the insurance lawyer called me and when I told him my clients story, he sent a check within 5 days. It does depend on the company and its relationship with counsel but if they see that they are going to get busted in the case, they will make recommendations. I have had cases where we had to go to trial so that the insurance lawyer could "build" his file but a car lawyer can always beat an insurance lawyer. It does help if the insurance lawyer is having to come to your county for justice. Ymm, ymm, home cooking. For the record, I represented insurance companies for over 15 yrs in my practice before they got too obtrusive in my strategy and file maintenance.

In reply to fastmiata:

I'm not going to hire an attorney. I AM an attorney. I don't know about insurance, but I've got time to research it myself and file it myself if I need to. For that matter, we wouldn't be able to hire another attorney worth the money...we're talking less than $2k worth of difference here. I'll plead for attorney's fees if I'm allowed to do so by statute. If I can't, I'll probably file in small claims anyway.

I've decided what I'm going to do is write one last demand letter. I'm going to back up my valuation with examples of similar cars (found plenty of those already), challenge their dimunition in value by getting a couple of different estimates to repair it (and challenging them to show me this damage they say is so bad), challenge their assertion about the trans, and attach a draft of the suit I'll file if they don't meet my demand. Then I'll give them one week. If they don't match up, we'll go to the mattresses.

Tell them that if they want to use the actual cost of repairs to reduce the value for prior damage, then you are just fine with that as long as they also use the actual cost of repairs to determine the increased value for the rebuilt transmission. It's only fair that they apply the same standard in both situations, right?

Josh wrote: Tell them that if they want to use the actual cost of repairs to reduce the value for prior damage, then you are just fine with that as long as they also use the actual cost of repairs to determine the increased value for the rebuilt transmission. It's only fair that they apply the same standard in both situations, right?

Oooh, that's brilliant. Wouldn't work with me, but them I'm smarter than the average dumbass claim rep hiding behind a phone. I'd like to hear what the response to that is.

Every state has different laws, of course, but I can't believe they wouldn't at least counter-offer to try to make you go away. Ask for a supervisor also. The plebe who you are talking to probably doesn't have the authority to do squat and gets performance evaluations on how much they save or some crap.

I just believe that letter writing works to their benefit, not yours. The man with the gold makes the rules and you got to do something to change that game. YMMV