Half an apartment building collapsed in Miami last night.

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

In reply to NOT A TA :

It may open some eyes to how useless bureaucracies actually are. Those who can, do. Those who can't, inspect. There are some truly stupid people that work for the government and if you are depending on them to keep you safe, you are a fool. 

I know too many good people in government who honestly try to do the right thing. Like all humans no one is flawless. So often people  lump everyone in the same caragory. 
  Like private citizens are perfect and do everything right. 
  If you say some are corrupt, some aren't some are good some aren't and some just don't know and some do I'll agree with you but to paint all of any one group with the same brush, I'm sorry I can't agree. ( Actually I'm sure you don't either) 

 I work at a 40 year old industrial site that was built to or beyond code at the time. They have started demoing and re-pouring floors in high traffic areas due to porosity and cracking. This was +6" thick, double rebar poured over a corrugated steel deck. It was just worn out. Of course, this is an industrial environment with heavy equipment so apples to turnips, versus residential use by the beach. There is no salt in our application, but the floor was cleaned on a daily schedule. I wonder if industrial cleaners can cause damage to concrete, especially the aggregate. The old rebar and decking looked fine, but the concrete itself was a crumbly mess. 
 

In any case, they dropped the decking about 3" lower for a roughly 9" new pour. I am not a civil guy so I don't know if code changed or if they were just being conservative. 

 frenchyd :

I work around government employees on a daily basis. The large majority don't care about anything beyond making their 40 with a minimum amount of work. The few that do care can't make any headway because their fellow employees don't want to look bad so they drag them down to the same mediocre level. 

We are currently informing all of our customers to make electronic payments because the USPS can't be trusted to deliver a check to the correct mail box. Multiple phone calls to the postmaster get the typical don't care attitude. 

Government bureaucrats are a nuisance on on their best day and nothing more than a road block the rest of the time. 

I feel sorry for the few good people I know who work for them. 

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm not lumping ANYONE  together.  I'm saying that this incident is evident that there were defects in the original construction and process, and that it's critically important for the current government leadership to use the authority they have to identify if other problems could exist in buildings built by the same developer, or inspected by the same inspectors. 
 

No idea how you managed to get to the conclusion that all government is bad, but I never said it. In fact, I called for the existing government to act and be the responsible party taking the lead. If I believed all government was bad, I would have suggested a rebellion against the government, not suggested we entrust them with the responsibility for being proactive and transparent. 
 

It's THEIR job. Anything less is irresponsible. 

The people really on the hook is the insurance company for the building.  They are they ones that should be inspecting what they are insuring.   They have the most to lose.  And the stick they have is the ability to reject insurance on a building that is in major disrepair.     I'm thinking this building collapse is a wake up call to the insurance industry - can you imagine the payout for over 100 people dead in this horrible tragedy?  

ABS (American Bureau of Shipping) is a private company that inspects ships and certifies to insurance companies the ship is "ship shape". 

You don't pass ABS inspection your ship is uninsurable.  No one will ship stuff on it.  The End.

Before big time bankers convinced governments that some businesses were "too big to fail" Lloyds of London was insuring merchant vessels on a private basis.   Insurance companies used to dredge harbors so ships would not run aground, resulting in large insurance claims.  Etc.

frenchyd said:

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

In reply to NOT A TA :

It may open some eyes to how useless bureaucracies actually are. Those who can, do. Those who can't, inspect. There are some truly stupid people that work for the government and if you are depending on them to keep you safe, you are a fool. 

I know too many good people in government who honestly try to do the right thing. Like all humans no one is flawless. So often people  lump everyone in the same caragory. 
  Like private citizens are perfect and do everything right. 
  If you say some are corrupt, some aren't some are good some aren't and some just don't know and some do I'll agree with you but to paint all of any one group with the same brush, I'm sorry I can't agree. ( Actually I'm sure you don't either) 

Toyman,

I work with my local inspectors frequently as well and value their professional input. You're painting with too broad a brush here.

If you're really that upset about your local government I suggest you run for an office that oversees the department that you're having trouble with. We live in a democracy, and the government (yes, including the bureaucracy) is us-you, me, everybody else as well.

In reply to CrustyRedXpress :

I can't count the number of times I've had to dig out my books to teach an inspector his job. I can't imagine being a GC and having to deal with them on a regular basis. 

As for running for office, my soul isn't for sale and I like being able to sleep the sleep of the innocent at night. I'm also a bad liar. That in itself bars me from office.

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

Please let me tell you about my late wife. She work for the county for 40 years.  Took an hour long bus ride in every morning. Worked her 9 hours. ( 1/2 hour for lunch and 2  15 minute coffee breaks every day).  Then an hour on the bus going home. 40 years. 
      She handed out money to welfare mothers.   Petty cash. It's called. But with everyone, every tax payer wants an exact accounting of every penny. Every bus pass, every postage stamp.  In our county if you graduate from high school girls get $75 for a dress and Boys get $50 for a sport coat.  Well they are also expected to use it to apply for a job. 
    Everything is expected to be accounted for.  Day by day week in week out she filled out the forms. Documented everything then wrote everything by hand in her tablet. 
  Because of that double documentation in 40 years not one cent went unaccounted for. Her books were never off. 
     Maybe it's a cultural thing.  But most of the government employees I know I trust.  They've helped me when I needed it. Explained things when I asked. Can't say I've always got my way. But I've always understood why. Plus I usually figured out how to achieve my goal. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

Please let me tell you about my late wife. She work for the county for 40 years.  Took an hour long bus ride in every morning. Worked her 9 hours. ( 1/2 hour for lunch and 2  15 minute coffee breaks every day).  Then an hour on the bus going home. 40 years. 
      She handed out money to welfare mothers.   Petty cash. It's called. But with everyone, every tax payer wants an exact accounting of every penny. Every bus pass, every postage stamp.  In our county if you graduate from high school girls get $75 for a dress and Boys get $50 for a sport coat.  Well they are also expected to use it to apply for a job. 
    Everything is expected to be accounted for.  Day by day week in week out she filled out the forms. Documented everything then wrote everything by hand in her tablet. 
  Because of that double documentation in 40 years not one cent went unaccounted for. Her books were never off. 
     Maybe it's a cultural thing.  But most of the government employees I know I trust.  They've helped me when I needed it. Explained things when I asked. Can't say I've always got my way. But I've always understood why. Plus I usually figured out how to achieve my goal. 

What does this have to do with anything being discussed?

In reply to z31maniac :

You must be new here. It's step 2. Next step involves hand hewn lumber. 

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

In reply to CrustyRedXpress :

I can't count the number of times I've had to dig out my books to teach an inspector his job. I can't imagine being a GC and having to deal with them on a regular basis. 

As for running for office, my soul isn't for sale and I like being able to sleep the sleep of the innocent at night. I'm also a bad liar. That in itself bars me from office.

Interesting I can count some number of times I had to do that for a GC and once for  30 year veteran of below grade work. 

People are people some government folks suck, I work with a few, some contractors suck, I had to deal with them as it was my job.

I always come back in these conversations to the key question that stalls progress in many situations for the USA. 

Who wants to pay the taxes needed to pay high enough salaries for a top level engineering student to join a government agency? 

As the before mentioned USPS. At this point the private public model isn't working. I want my government to have a means fully within their control to contact me. As in fully appropriated funds paid Federal Employees. The issue I think is the perception that it should be cheap and user payment supported. Non coincidentally the same is applied to building inspectors. I am fascinated when someone complains about both timing and quality of city inspectors but refuse the concept of higher taxes to provide better service and retain per use fee rates. 

I don't know the state of Miami building office corruption in the 1980s or today.  Either way next step is to back the city building dept. with enough money for them to plow (or contract a third party review) through years of building inspection. Again $$$$$$ 

I hope that doesn't drive this thread to political spiral of doom. I guess in summary the city can't just conjure up the funds to do the job properly. I hope the state or feds can help. 

In reply to Advan046 :

I don't buy that. 
 

Inspection services aren't paid for with tax dollars. They are paid for with permit fees. Municipalities can charge whatever they want for permit fees. I am currently building in Macon GA. The rate is $4 per $1000 of construction cost.  A building like that would cost $40 million to build. That's $160,000 in permit fees. That's plenty to pay for inspections. If not, raise the fees. 
 

Plus all commercial buildings now require 3rd party inspections. Those are performed by completely competent and qualified engineers (and paid for separately from the permit fees)

We are perfectly capable of having quality inspections. 

In reply to Advan046 :

You think the answer to incompetence and corruption is to pay them more money? 

$53k a year plus insane benefits aren't enough for a letter carrier to put a piece of paper in the correct box?

I have no response to that. We aren't even in the same book much less on the same page. 

That boggles the mind. 

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

I think we are closer in thought. I do know inspections are paid per need based permits.  However, I suggested that to go back and review all the 1980s and 1990s would not be funded by a permit paid by owner or contractor. A plan I thought you suggested.  A city usually has some path it has to walk to make sure that very investigation can be paid for. That is all I am pointing out, it will take some plan to fund the effort.

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

I think we are far apart. I would hesitate to blame the mail carrier for systematic failures. Or maybe this isn't a failure at all but the fastest the USPS can function with the funding they have. IDK for sure so I won't argue it.

I do think systems and goals are worth funding if the they allow those systems to work properly. 

In reply to Advan046 :

Yes you are right. An investigation like that would be tax dollars.  Public safety, and all that stuff. 

It's really difficult for me to imagine a public outcry opposing an investigation into this, or a mayor needing to ask the voters for permission.

Taxpayers are also paying for the public appearances of the mayor grandstanding without any meaningful substance.  No one seems to be complaining about that. 

This is a building that was under construction and collapsed. 

 A combination of poor design, owner forcing changes on the job site that further reduced the safety factor, poor inspection, poor materials, and, of course, its New Orleans.

New Orleans Hard Rock hotel collapse: 1 dead and 2 missing | CNN

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

In reply to Advan046 :

$53k a year plus insane benefits aren't enough for a letter carrier to put a piece of paper in the correct box?

 

Do they really make $53k a year? After how many years? Or how much overtime? I'm not sure I'm believing that.

In reply to mtn :

Whoops, I was off a bit. The mean annual salary for a mail carrier is only $51k nationwide. They top out at over $63k.

That's quite a bit more than McDonald's pays their drive-through workers and I can depend on them to get it right more often than I can the post office. 

mtn said:

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

In reply to Advan046 :

$53k a year plus insane benefits aren't enough for a letter carrier to put a piece of paper in the correct box?

 

Do they really make $53k a year? After how many years? Or how much overtime? I'm not sure I'm believing that.

That's the right ballpark. My father in law was a postal worker. It's a pretty good job (with excellent benefits)

Right, but after how long and how many hours of overtime? It looks like it takes 17 years to get to the cap and 10 years to get to the median? Although I'm not sure I'm reading that correctly.

I'm not saying they're paid too much or too little, but around here $51k, and even $63k doesn't take you very far unless you're single. Of course, in many areas I'd be living quite well on $51k with a family. Maybe that is why we haven't had a consistent letter carrier here since the one that had been on the job for 28 years retired. 

Sorry, didn't mean to divert from the falling buildings. 

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

 frenchyd :

I work around government employees on a daily basis. The large majority don't care about anything beyond making their 40 with a minimum amount of work. The few that do care can't make any headway because their fellow employees don't want to look bad so they drag them down to the same mediocre level. 

We are currently informing all of our customers to make electronic payments because the USPS can't be trusted to deliver a check to the correct mail box. Multiple phone calls to the postmaster get the typical don't care attitude. 

Government bureaucrats are a nuisance on on their best day and nothing more than a road block the rest of the time. 

I feel sorry for the few good people I know who work for them. 

What is your solution?  Do without inspections?  Police inspectors as tightly as welfare workers are?  ( we spend 10 cents of every dollar on looking for welfare fraud)  

Yes there are bad apples in government.  Yes there are bad apples in contractors.  Yes there are bad tax payers etc. 

So do nothing? 
 In this case the inspector saw the flaws and informed the tenants association. Those facts are documented.  
The tenants choose to do nothing. To a very big degree that is understood.   Many  of the tenants were retired and didn't have the millions of dollars required to do a proper repair.  But that was their home and had been for decades  .  So the tenants paid the ultimate price for their inaction.  
    Don't worry, any surviving members of the tenants association  will spend any remaining assets on legal fees and settlements.  
 Sad but that's the solution. Periodically  some pay the cost of inactivity.  

That's not the inspections I referred to. 
 

As a construction professional with over 40 years experience, I am absolutely confident the building had flaws in the initial construction that were allowed to pass. My suggestion was to immediately try to find any other buildings built under similar circumstances that could cause harm. 
 

Maintenance inspections are a completely different process. Yes, you are right. There were unaddressed maintenance issues. I don't believe that caused the building to fall. 
 

I have no interest in an argument over the validity of inspections or the existence of government. . I assert they were done poorly, and contributed to the loss of life.

That is a problem that could be addressed and pursued right now. If anyone cared. 

Local radio stations have been mentioning this on air.   https://supportsurfside.org/  for anyone interested in donating money, products, etc to help victims/familys.