Have a Close Friend in a Terrible Relationship...

Hey y'all.  I don't like airing personal problems on public forums, but this one's got me really, really bothered, and I don't know what else to do.  I have a very close friend who I've known for a long time, who has been in a relationship with this girl for a year or two now.  I had my initial misgivings about her, and _them_, but I tried to back off and let things work out.  Recently, said friend and I were talking and he starting blurting out how terrible the relationship was.  She has 2 kids, both of whom seem to have mental issues.  Her, her mom, and the kids get mental help.  There's an ex somewhere (baby daddy) who my friend has never met, but the g/f claims is violent.  The girl is a recovered alcoholic, but occasionally will just check herself into mental institutions for a month at a time, dumping her kids at her mom's house.  She's had 3 jobs in the time they've been dating, none of which are terribly good jobs.  She has no car, but she destroyed one of his by running it out of oil.  She's constantly begging him to let her move in, even though she claims that her mom could not afford to live by herself unless she helps to pay the rent.  She's apparently been bitter and nasty to him verbally and in text messages, and said things vaguely hinting at suicide if they break up. 

I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting, and I'm sure my friend's accounts are somewhat biased, but regardless, you get the picture.  The relationship sucks, and she is some level of mentally not-all-there, to the point where he seems (to me, anyway) to be held hostage by her. 

My advice to him was that the only way to successfully break up with Crazytown would be a quick, clean, firm ending.  I told him to:

1. Change his locks (she has a key)
2. Pack up all her E36 M3 and take it to her mom's house
3. Block her number, do not answer phone calls, texts, emails, or anything.  Do not engage in any way.
4. If she comes by his house, do not open the door or engage her in any way.  If she becomes violent, call the police.

The problem is...I don't think my friend will do all this.  He's got a big heart, and while he's smart, he's not one to take decisive action; his history of dealing with g/f and ex's is....well...glacial.  My worry is that he sticks around with her and something worse happens.  Like she gets knocked up.  Or...I can't even imagine what.  I've offered to help him with taking care of this problem doing whatever I can.  Unfortunately, he lives 6 hours away, so I'm not right there.  I've thought about contacting some of his other friends, who live nearby, and apparently have also told him he needs to dump Crazytown ASAP, and seeing what can be accomplished with them.  At the most extreme, I actually have crazytown's email, so I could send her a note to back off, but I fear that would blow up in my face somehow. 

So, that's all I've got right now.  I genuinely fear for this guy's safety and well being and finances.  What else can I do?

One of the biggest problems with bad decision people (her) is they make people around them (him) make bad decisions also.  He "loves" her and of course because of that doesn't want to hurt her.  He needs to see that it's a one way street.  She's a taker and not a giver.  He needs to realize that she hasn't added anything meaningful to his life while she's sucked everything she can out of his life force.  Until he realizes that there's not much you can do.

There is the whole "you can lead a horse to water," bit, but...

I would see if you can get ahold of some of his friends. Perhaps all of you together can perform an intervention.

I wonder if he's allowing the BS because of the kids? I sympathize with him. I'd have a hard time dropping the kids when, clearly, so many others have. I don't have an answer.

Your advice was good, but it's all you can really do.  It's up to him to act on it.

volvoclearinghouse said:

and said things vaguely hinting at suicide if they break up. 

 

She's not his problem unless he allows her to be. The kids are not his problem unless he allows them to be. Allowing them to be his problem will be an albatross on his neck. He should cut ties and run, run run.

Make abso-berkeleying-lutely he knows this is manipulative, toxic behavior, and by enabling it, he's letting her get her hooks further into him. He may qualify as an abused partner here- it's not always physical. This is not a healthy or normal relationship. Don't couch it or soften the blow to spare his feelings. Explain it in short, concise points. It might piss your buddy off, but as his friend you should lay it out for him as stark and bare as possible.

If he is crystal clear about those points, and still wishes to be involved in the situation, there's nothing you can do.

Find a new boyfriend for her?

Sounds like the biological version of some of my car projects.  As someone who does not know how to quit, I feel for him.

Something else I forgot last night...it's probably obvious from everything else I've said, but she's got the mentality of poor trash rich.  She apparently came home from work one Friday having cashed her paycheck, with a fistful of dollars, and told him she was taking him out to dinner, her treat.  She blew most of the rest of the wad taking her kids to Disney about a month ago- yes, flying them and her to Florida in the middle of the rise in virus cases.  Then....she works at a hospital, and apparently convinced some other people there to let her raid the "Toys for Tots" donation bin for toys for her kids- cried poverty and all that.  She routinely shows up at food donation places for handouts, too. 

I had a l-o-n-g talk with my buddy the other day and told him pretty much everything you guys have mentioned- she is selfish, manipulative, toxic, and he was being abused mentally.  I pretty much called her a horrible human being, based on what he had told me. 

I know he's got a soft heart and feels for the kids, and him being somewhat older and still single I think he looks at others with families (like me, and most of his other friends) and wants that.  The trouble is, he wants _that_, he doesn't want a pair of mentally abused kids from some potentially violent baby daddy who's pissing away child support on crazytown every month.  My friend isn't really in all that secure a place financially, either, and I fear some combination of the woman/ kids might break him.  As I said, she already ruined a car he was letting her use.  Luckily it was a 20 year old Focus with a blue book value somewhere between a pack of Pall Malls and a case of Natty Light.  Oh, that reminds me- she smokes too, which my friend can't stand. 

Does it get any better than this?   I think I might contact some of his other friends.  See if we can intervention. 

Cut it off fast and hard. No other way or else it won't be taken as serious by the other party. He needs to suck-up any feelings he might have, make a clean break and move on ALONE!

Good luck, hopefully 2021 will be much better for him.

It sucks to see a friend make self-destructive choices, but you are doing what you should. And all that you can. Remember, an intervention is a last case, nuclear solution. If it opens his eyes, you win. If it doesn't you likely will never hear from him again, and likely neither will any of the other participants who may be his only positive influences. If he doesn't grab that life line, he probably drowns. Be damn sure you are ready to make that choice. 

I've been on the wrong side of a full blown kidnap-style "intervention" that never should have happened, although I was just a kid caught in the middle. I've seen the aftermath. Be sure.

Supporting your friend and doing what you can to open their eyes to the situation is all you can do.

The one thing you should absolutely never ever do under any circumstances is contact Crazytown directly by yourself.

If friend asks you to do it for him, do it cautiously and do it from his email or a burner. But do not do it from yours or on your own initiative.

Good luck. I think the intervention with his friends is the best bet. Let him know for sure that you're all there for him and he's not alone. 
 

Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  She got it bad.     He is a co-dependent enabler.   She is probably a lost cause but your friend needs professional counseling to figure out why he keeps doing this to himself.  I long ago stopped trying to help my friends out of self made problems.  They always eventually got angry at me for suggesting either change in themselves or to dump the problem.  Then I became the common enemy sucked into  their Triangle game of Victim, Persecutor, Rescuer.  Once you jump on the triangle you end up playing all the positions.

My philosophy in life includes this rule: "Its better to walk alone than in bad company".

She's a classic master manipulator.  Everything she has she had gotten through manipulation.  Sure, this may have been a learned survival skill for her but she's learned it from a series of bad choices and bad planning that has caused her to make desperate moves to survive.  However, your friend doesn't need to join in on this road of hardship voluntarily. 

She is preying on some weakness in him.  Most likely that weakness in him is an issue of low self worth.  An example of that low worth is...in the world of the blind the one eyed man is king.  I'm sure she makes him feel smart, successful, rich and needed.  By all comparisons to her, he is all these things.  What has been the greater cause of his dip in self worth?  Is it just 2020, which has been hard on everyone or is it something greater?   If the friends want to positive intervene, I would work addressing his issues of self worth. 

I saw this whole thing play out similarly 20 years ago.  At the time, the guy (the victim) was more of a friend of a friend and not yet what has since made him very close friend of mine.  He was just recently divorced.  A situation where she cheated on him...wrecking his self worth.  
At the time, I saw him as the most eligible bachelor in our county.  A successful business owner who owned his own home.  No kids and an amazingly accomplished sailboat racer from a good local family.  In this low period, he hooked up with his former high school prom date.  She was most all of what you've listed above for your friend.  Multiple kids, multiple dudes, not path forward.  Low and behold, she ended up knocked up with my friends kid.  It was a long road but he managed to pull himself out of it.  He's been a great father to the kid and the kid is a great kid, but...  It made for a much harder road than my friend ever needed.  A few years after the kid birth, my friend did get his life back on track.  He remarried a great, hot blond and has lived up to his potential the whole way through.  That kids mother is still just the same terrible person she has always been.  

Summary:  Build up your friend's self worth.  Make sure he sees that he is important to your and that you need him.  Try to immerse him in a world where she really doesn't fit.  However, I recommend playing really hard.  You are in the fight for his life.  If you give it all your efforts and fail, you'll never see him again.  If you do nothing and he gets pulled in, you'll never see him again either.  Play your hand like it is for the whole pot!  

jharry3 said:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  She got it bad.     He is a co-dependent enabler.   She is probably a lost cause but your friend needs professional counseling to figure out why he keeps doing this to himself.  I long ago stopped trying to help my friends out of self made problems.  They always eventually got angry at me for suggesting either change in themselves or to dump the problem.  Then I became the common enemy sucked into  their Triangle game of Victim, Persecutor, Rescuer.  Once you jump on the triangle you end up playing all the positions.

My philosophy in life includes this rule: "Its better to walk alone than in bad company".

Ironically, she's called him Nacissistic.  Most recently, because he chose to spend Thanksgiving with his family instead of going with her and her crazykids on the ill-advised pilgrimmage to Mouseville.  And later because he spent Christmas with his family, instead of with her.  So, if anything, there's at least some positives.  Totally agree with your rule, too.  I would add that you're never alone, even when you think you are, but that adds a whole religious aspect that's individual-specific.  And my friend is not terribly religious. 

John Welsh said:

She is preying on some weakness in him.  Most likely that weakness in him is an issue of low self worth.  An example of that low worth is...in the world of the blind the one eyed man is king.  I'm sure she makes him feel smart, successful, rich and needed.  By all comparisons to her, he is all these things.  What has been the greater cause of his dip in self worth?  Is it just 2020, which has been hard on everyone or is it something greater?   If the friends want to positive intervene, I would work addressing his issues of self worth. 

Summary:  Build up your friend's self worth.  Make sure he sees that he is important to your and that you need him.  Try to immerse him in a world where she really doesn't fit.  However, I recommend playing really hard.  You are in the fight for his life.  If you give it all your efforts and fail, you'll never see him again.  If you do nothing and he gets pulled in, you'll never see him again either.  Play your hand like it is for the whole pot!  

Thanks, John.  I see exactly what you describe.  The guy is a younger sibling and the older brother "has it all" and I suspect the parents don't exactly treat them equally.  He needs to break out of the shadow and start living his own life.  He's about halfway through it already, so it's about damn time. 

I've tried to engage him in the old car hobby- he seems to have some interest there, but right now he's got a fleet of a half dozen or so junky ~20 year old cars worth nothing that he struggles to keep running just to have transportation.  I've tried to convince him to learn from my mistakes, sell off the junk and buy a decent transportation car and then look for a hobby car.  He's also paying rent on a storage unit for crap he has no room for in his house.  He lost a couple of vehicles to somewhat complex legal issues I won't go into here (not repo exactly, but other stupid reasons). These are all other issues, the main one is the toxic g/f, but I've been on him about the other stuff for years and nothing's happened. 

His life just needs a big dumpster to unload all this crap into, and set it on fire. 

Well, this sounds like pretty much every day of the last 11 years I've spent working in Family Court.  Right down to "crazy ex/BD".  The only suggestion I would add to the above is, if he knows how, have your friend reach out cautiously to BD.  This will accomplish 2 things:  First, if he is the crazy shiny happy person she makes him out to be, your friend needs to understand he's stuck with this guy if he ties himself to her long term.  I've had this conversation with thousands of people over the years.  "I don't want to deal with him/her" goes out the window when there are kids in the picture.  Your friend needs to understand that, like it or not, if he makes her/him into a family, BD is now part of his family.  Make sure to put it that bluntly.  Happiness and joy will no doubt ensue.  Second, if he (BD) ISN'T the crazy shiny happy person he's been made out to be, it's possible your friend may get some insight into the passing crazy train he's boarding.  In 11 years, I've yet to find a failed relationship that is all one person's fault.  

Whatever you do, BEG HIM not to add kids or a ring to the mix.  

Never stick your hootus in crazy.  

I'd assume he isn't particularly successful with the ladies and since she lets him dip his hootus in her pond, she can get away with being such a wretched human.   Find him a date with someone normal and drama free.  Let him see he can fish in non-crazy ponds and he'll get off the crazy town train in a hurry.

Unfortunately, guys who don't get laid easily will put up with a lot when they do find a willing partner (my marriage was a prime example).  

KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) said:

Never stick your hootus in crazy.  

On that same front, friends and I have a similar quote and it is, "nothing berks like crazy."  These crazy girls are playing you at a whole different level than what you initially realize and with that these crazys are freaks in the sheets.  Proceed with caution!  When I think back to my personal "team photo", two separate ones come to mind.  With one, at about age 27 for me and maybe 25 for her, as things progressed and I met some her family, I was convinced that there was some really weird relationship between her and her father.  So much so that it scared me off.  

KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) said:

Never stick your hootus in crazy.  

I'd assume he isn't particularly successful with the ladies and since she lets him dip his hootus in her pond, she can get away with being such a wretched human.   Find him a date with someone normal and drama free.  Let him see he can fish in non-crazy ponds and he'll get off the crazy town train in a hurry.

Unfortunately, guys who don't get laid easily will put up with a lot when they do find a willing partner (my marriage was a prime example).  

Bingo.  Said fried has dated maybe 3 or 4 girls in his whole life, all of them pretty/very terrible.  I know I'm biased but...I know he can do better.  I know guys who are objectively a lot less than he is who managed to convince much better women to marry them.  His biggest problem is a lack of confidence. 

kazoospec said:

Well, this sounds like pretty much every day of the last 11 years I've spent working in Family Court.  Right down to "crazy ex/BD".  The only suggestion I would add to the above is, if he knows how, have your friend reach out cautiously to BD.  This will accomplish 2 things:  First, if he is the crazy shiny happy person she makes him out to be, your friend needs to understand he's stuck with this guy if he ties himself to her long term.  I've had this conversation with thousands of people over the years.  "I don't want to deal with him/her" goes out the window when there are kids in the picture.  Your friend needs to understand that, like it or not, if he makes her/him into a family, BD is now part of his family.  Make sure to put it that bluntly.  Happiness and joy will no doubt ensue.  Second, if he (BD) ISN'T the crazy shiny happy person he's been made out to be, it's possible your friend may get some insight into the passing crazy train he's boarding.  In 11 years, I've yet to find a failed relationship that is all one person's fault.  

Whatever you do, BEG HIM not to add kids or a ring to the mix.  

I mentioned to him the possibility that her "insane ex" may not be as terrible as she makes him out to be...he's just forced to deal with _her_, and that drives him over the edge.  Crazy drags everything and everybody down to its level and beats it with experience.  I agree- every bad relationship is the fault of both parties, and I know he's got baggage, too.  She helped him break up with his prior s/o, and that was a whole other story. 

John Welsh said:

KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) said:

Never stick your hootus in crazy.  

 

On that same front, friends and I have a similar quote and it is, "nothing berks like crazy."  These crazy girls are playing you at a whole different level than what you initially realize and with that these crazys are freaks in the sheets.  Proceed with caution!  When I think back to my personal "team photo", two separate ones come to mind.  With one, at about age 27 for me and maybe 25 for her, as things progressed and I met some her family, I was convinced that there was some really weird relationship between her and her father.  So much so that it scared me off.  

Yep.  Same here.  I think that's why I relate to my friend so well- I've had my own tickets on the crazy train and rode that sucker for all it was worth.  We've made a LOT of the same mistakes in life. Yes, nothing berkeleys like crazy, but when you meet the right girl, you realize that the berkeleying is so much better than with crazy. 

I know when I finally had my "ah ha" moment and met Mrs VCH, who was a shockingly mentally well-adjusted person and who loved me for me, and made me feel like a BETTER person, it was a total life changer.  I want that for my friend.  Desperately. 

John Welsh said:

KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) said:

Never stick your hootus in crazy.  

 

On that same front, friends and I have a similar quote and it is, "nothing berks like crazy."  These crazy girls are playing you at a whole different level than what you initially realize and with that these crazys are freaks in the sheets.  Proceed with caution!  When I think back to my personal "team photo", two separate ones come to mind.  With one, at about age 27 for me and maybe 25 for her, as things progressed and I met some her family, I was convinced that there was some really weird relationship between her and her father.  So much so that it scared me off.  

I will confess to being drawn in by one of these and then scared E36 M3less at 26 - 27 years old to the point that I swore off dating.  I remember telling my dad that I was sorry but I just couldn't deal with the crazies anymore.   A close family friend twisted my arm to go on a blind date 4 or 5 months later with the daughter of her long time next door neighbors.   We'll be married 29 years at the end of March.   LOL.  

OP, do what you can to build up your friend's own self worth as much as you can as has been suggested above.   Listen and encourage, he's reaching out to you for a reason.  Do your best to help him see the light.

volvoclearinghouse said:

I've tried to engage him in the old car hobby- he seems to have some interest there, but right now he's got a fleet of a half dozen or so junky ~20 year old cars worth nothing that he struggles to keep running just to have transportation.  I've tried to convince him to learn from my mistakes, sell off the junk and buy a decent transportation car and then look for a hobby car.  He's also paying rent on a storage unit for crap he has no room for in his house.  He lost a couple of vehicles to somewhat complex legal issues I won't go into here (not repo exactly, but other stupid reasons). These are all other issues, the main one is the toxic g/f, but I've been on him about the other stuff for years and nothing's happened. 

His life just needs a big dumpster to unload all this crap into, and set it on fire. 

Why is reality TV so popular?  Because watching these really F'ed up people on TV makes you feel better about yourself.  You tend to say, "I may have problems but at least I don't have the problems they have."  It sort of becomes comforting.  "I have it bad but not that kind of bad."  

You mention that your buddy fights confusion and complexity in his own life.  Add in this amount of crazy assures him that his problems aren't that big.  However, it does nothing to help him with his problems.  Instead, he just pushes his problems to the back burner (where they can smolder into bigger problems.)  One way of not dealing with your problems is to take on a load of someone else's problems...strangely.  

It all becomes a weird way of shedding your real and concrete problems for someone else's problems that are less concrete to you and you falsely believe that you'll be able to walk away from.  

Back to self worth.  He may be beaten by his own problems so much and his inability to correct them that he is then "shopping for a win."  I mean that he feels if he can solve something for her he gets a boost  and a reassurance that he can win. 

The huge risk here is that her problems are really going to become his problem too!!!
I also see people who have lost the fight to succeed.  An easy way to accept this and save face with others is to somehow become the victim.  In a weird way, if he gets saddled with her problems then it somehow makes sense that he's loosing and he now has her to blame (taking the blame off himself.)  

Build his self worth and help him confront his own problems.  Get his personal affairs in order before he takes on more of her personal affairs.  

Change your locks

Change your phone number

Barricade the doors

Get a video surveillance system

'cause crazy will come looking for you.

When she comes knocking, don't answer the door, just call the cops and have her picked up for tresspassing.

Yes, he needs to get out. Now. There is never a "right time", just rip off that band-aid and run. Things will only get worse.

I've done my time on the crazy train, took a while to realize it's better to be alone.