We have politicians and protesters right here that are supporting beheading children, raping women and murdering women, children and the elderly. How? How are these people not openly and vocally mocked and berated for supporting these atrocities? How can you even begin to justify it? I just can't understand what some of these "people"* are thinking.
* Using the word "people" very loosely because these acts are monstrous and no human should even begin to think this is OK.
bobzilla said:We have politicians and protesters right here that are supporting beheading children, raping women and murdering women, children and the elderly. How? How are these people not openly and vocally mocked and berated for supporting these atrocities? How can you even begin to justify it? I just can't understand what some of these "people"* are thinking.
* Using the word "people" very loosely because these acts are monstrous and no human should even begin to think this is OK.
Most people are stupid and believe what they are told to believe, and after their mind is made up almost no act or evidence will change it. Not saying everyone is like this, but most on both sides just know "My side good, your side bad"
I think this guy puts it reasonably well.
Apexcarver said:NOHOME said:
Why?
There was only ever going to be one guaranteed and predictable response to the Hamas attack. Israel was going to kick the E36 M3 out of Gaza with zero regard for collateral damage. The entire western world would demand it and there would be to pause to consider other options due to politics.
And they were correct, first point to Hamas.
So, knowing they were going to get the response they wanted, what is Hamas' long game? Is this just a way to recruit the next generation of victim/haters who lost everything to the evil west? Or is there an actual attainable military victory to be had?
Who stands to benefit from tensions and conflict in the middle east? Who benefits best from a "Moslems vs Jews vs the west"?
- Iran - well, Saudi and Israel were on the cusp of peace, likely a casualty of this conflict. Iran is already suffering under internal pressures on human rights type issues, a new conflict allows their culture war to have an excuse.
- Muslim extremists in general - poke them, they hit us, we can claim aggrieved status and get more recruits and power.
- Russia? *Distraction* might drive some combatants into their arms, just because the other side
- China? Same as Russia, plus the west distracted from whats happening with Taiwan is a good thing for them. Might be able to get some middle east development contracts in the aftermath.
Netanyahu has a bit to gain from this. He was facing a decent amount of protests over corruption charges. That will certainly die down with all of this. I had read a report that the Egyptian intelligence told the Israeli intelligence that HAMAS was planning something.
I feel sorry for the citizens on both sides . HAMAS is nothing more then a puppet for the Iranians and is clearly a barbaric terriost but the Isrealis have hardly treated the people of Gaza well prior to this.
Earlier today at NPR.org a headline story was about 'what is Gaza'. There was a quote about how it has been referred to as the world's largest open air prison. The article neglected mentioning the aspect that the culture is wholly focused on destroying Israel. They are told that their God wants them to and that people of Israel are not equally human. Children have been raised in an environment of school books and happy songs about killing Jews. They have been taught from birth that the actions of the terrorists are what they should aspire to. Outside money and influence has been poured in to keep it that way. With a population like that, their neighbors need to keep them behind walls and restrict what goes in and out.
I am against 're-education camps' and 'de-programming' a culture, but in a case like this, they are in a death cult and have already been programmed to hate and kill. It will not change until [or unless] a new generation is raised differently.
93EXCivic said: Netanyahu has a bit to gain from this.
Any gains he may have possibly had were probably erased when it was revealed he knew about the strong possibility of attacks three days before they happened.
Yeah, military intelligence is of variable quality and all that, but if there seems to be a remotely credible threat, moving some things around a bit and preparing for them (even a little bit) might not be a bad idea.
Inaction at the level we saw with this generates conspiracy theories.
aircooled said:In reply to Opti :
My question always is: "And who did your people kill to get the land?"
I think it started something like this (monolith optional):
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:Try to think like they think. A lot of people in the middle east don't think like we do, not even a little. Their values and ideals make no sense to us and vice versa.
This is a cop out. But before i say more I want to say that I don't condone the murder of innocent civilians and barbarisitc acts of terrorism.
I had a great modern Middle East class in college taught by a lebonese professor. TLDR many over there consider the west to be terrible colonizers who keep oppressive regimes in power. Think shah of Iran. No workers rights. No free press. Oppression and pain. But he had f16's from the US.
gazan's in particular have been fed anti Israel stuff since birth. As said above these dudes are in a death cult. Fed hatred and death from the start.
Saying crap like "they don't think like us" is right up there with "they hate our freedom". It's dismissive at best and at worst it's a mechanism that allows the reader to dehumanize. Which is usually a propaganda tool used for worse purposes. See "hun" posters from WW1.
it's just better to speak factually.
I believe the majority of people anywhere, whatever their religion or lack of religion, want nothing more than the ability to live in peace and security. It's simplistic and dismissive to make statements like they don't think like us.
In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
I mean, being taught at birth that you're oppressed and all Israeli's should die is kind of the definition of "they don't think like us."
bobzilla said:In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
I mean, being taught at birth that you're oppressed and all Israeli's should die is kind of the definition of "they don't think like us."
Nope. They just been brainwashed. I'd also say they are oppressed. It's a fact that Palestinians have been colonized and moved to reservations.
Do I understand correctly that Hamas and the Israelis were in cooperative talks for economic expansion before this attack?
Apparently Iranian President Raisi and Saudi Crown Prince Salman had their first-ever phone call yesterday. Beyond that they discussed Gaza, the details of the conversation are unknown, of course, but the fact that they spoke at all suggests that Hamas and Iran have already gone some way to achieving their primary war aim, which is to undermine normalization of Israeli-Saudi relations.
Israel is faced with a very difficult situation. They want to eliminate Hamas as a threat, but to do so will require an enormous effort that will cost large numbers of lives and cause substantial damage. There is very strong popular support in Israel for this objective, though this may wane over time (months, not days); failing to retaliate would be hugely unpopular and arguably undermine Israel's critical deterrent posture. It is likely that a large-scale operation into Gaza will take place, and that Hamas will be either eliminated or damaged to the point of being rendered ineffective for some time. But in doing this, Israel weakens its ties with the rest of the Arab world, ties that it has painstakingly built over the 50 years since the Yom Kippur War, and that have given it greater security than it had ever known before. The longer it hammers Gaza, the more Palestinians who are killed, the harder it becomes for Israel to maintain its diplomatic network in the region. It is very possible that the end result of this may be a broken Hamas, a wrecked and occupied Gaza, an isolated Israel, and an indefinite continuation of Arab-Israeli tensions that make diplomatic accomodation difficult and generate domestic unrest across the Arab world.
Who benefits from this? Iran.
Fueled by Caffeine said:bobzilla said:In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
I mean, being taught at birth that you're oppressed and all Israeli's should die is kind of the definition of "they don't think like us."
Nope. They just been brainwashed. I'd also say they are oppressed. It's a fact that Palestinians have been colonized and moved to reservations.
But brainwashed is thinking differently. At this point you're arguing to be right (or just because of who said it). Fine. Do whatever. Their thought patterns are unique in comparison to much of the west. Is that better? So you don't have to agree with Anthony or me?
In reply to bobzilla :
Being brianwashed isn't "thinking differently". It's that the facts you've been fed as your base are incorrect. Like I dunno how many Americans still believe Jews have horns? Is that "thinking differently"
In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
Yes, it is. Although I will admit I've never heard that before. Is that really a thing?
In reply to bobzilla :
Last post... if you used 9.71m/s squared as the acceleration due to gravity would you be "thinking differently" in an equation or would you just have the wrong base facts..
anyways.. here's a comprehensive list of jewish stereotypes from wikipedia.. I hope you find it interesting.. I'm not jewish but had a few jewish friends growing up...
In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
Michelangelo's Moses with horns.
Noddaz said:Do I understand correctly that Hamas and the Israelis were in cooperative talks for economic expansion before this attack?
Yes, that is effectively how HAMAS set this up. They were pretending to want to better the economics of Gaza (jobs, industry etc) do better the situation for the civilians (!). So much so, that they were getting flak from the Palestinian resistance group in the West Bank for not doing enough to resist Israel. Attacks by HAMAS had been almost nonexistent for the past few years, making this more believable.
This was outlines in the Reuters article linked a few pages back: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/#:~:text=%22Hamas%20used%20an%20unprecedented%20intelligence,operation%2C%22%20the%20source%20said.
Fueled by Caffeine said:Nope. They just been brainwashed. I'd also say they are oppressed. It's a fact that Palestinians have been colonized and moved to reservations.
Currently, it could be argued it would be difficult to figure out which oppression, Israel or HAMAS has been more damaging (at least in recent times).
In reply to aircooled :
that is some evil ass E36 M3..
aircooled said:Fueled by Caffeine said:Nope. They just been brainwashed. I'd also say they are oppressed. It's a fact that Palestinians have been colonized and moved to reservations.
Currently, it could be argued it would be difficult to figure out which oppression, Israel or HAMAS has been more damaging (at least in recent times).
One "side" has been teaching their children that all Jews should be dead, and lobbing rockets and mortars across the borders for decades. The other one has been keeping a perimeter on that and responding to infiltration and small attacks from the the former.
Yes, "it's complicated" in a political mess type way. But whats not complicated is gunning down, raping, torturing, beheading women, children and the elderly. Or Kidnapping to torture and kill later or use as human sheilds. That's not complicated. I don't care how brainwashed or wrong thinking you are, that should be dealt with swiftly and heavily. Anyone complicit in that as well. Protesting in free countries supporting those actions? I hope your (future)employers realize where you stand and use the same tactics on you that you've been using on those you don't agree with. Oh, and just leave. Go to that place you support so much. I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms.
Currently, no confirmation of the baby beheading. Still doesn't mean it didn't happen, and even if not true, babies where certainly shot and burned.
Israeli official says government cannot confirm babies were beheaded in Hamas attack
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl
Perhaps an overstatement to encourage outrage. If so, this, I think, is always a bad move. Overstating a position to make your argument stronger only reduces trust in any future arguments that are made (not sure if this is a logical fallacy?).
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Israel is now linking aid to Gaza (they provide at power and water normally) to the release of hostages. This of course puts Palestinian civilians in the middle. What percentage of civilians are considered completely innocent? E.g. if they support HAMAS, are they truly innocent in this case?
I don't think there is any place for non-involved (?) civilians to go. Egypt will not allow them in (even though it used to be their territory), and they are in a walled city.
Israel links Gaza aid to hostages' release as humanitarian catastrophe looms
..."No electrical switch will be lifted, no water hydrant will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli hostages are returned home. Humanitarian for humanitarian. And nobody should preach us morals," Katz posted on social media platform X....
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Yamos Adlin, former head of Israel's secret service, said on Israeli television that no one would simply send troops into the streets of Gaza. "Have you ever looked at the streets in Gaza? That would be a military battle on ruins. Of course , Hamas is just waiting for our soldiers." They are prepared with all possible explosive devices. "We will first destroy everything and then the troops will go in. They did it in our towns and the war must end in such a way that the flag of Israel will fly over the ruins of Gaza."
This of course is a FORMER head of the secret service, and does not necessarily represent the actual intent of Israel.
Fueled by Caffeine said:bobzilla said:In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :
I mean, being taught at birth that you're oppressed and all Israeli's should die is kind of the definition of "they don't think like us."
Nope. They just been brainwashed. I'd also say they are oppressed. It's a fact that Palestinians have been colonized and moved to reservations.
Anthony used the colloquial phrase "they think different..." or whatever he said, and everyone understood what he meant. Your phrase "They(ve) just been brainwashed" doesnt pass your own scrutiny, because brainwashing is relative, they think we are brainwashed and you think they are brainwashed. You cant say which is right and wrong technically because its all based on cultural and personal values. Right and Wrong isnt a FACTUAL statement is all viewed through cultural norms and morality.
the colloquial "brainwashing" really just boils down to changing someone's beliefs or values.
Id say saying "they are just brainwashed" is worse than saying they think differently. The connotation to saying this whole group of people is "just brainwashed" is that they are lesser than and not capable of making rational or logical decisions or resisting "brainwashing." They ARE making value proposition decisions based on their morals, they just differ from ours. Im not trying to excuse them but as Ive said before it doesnt help to underestimate your opponents and I think you are just arguing to be right
I think I posted this previously in the Ukraine thread. There is some unfortunate crossover. But essentially, Russian, not surprisingly, blames the US. This is the take from Russia Today (which, if you don't know is VERY much a pro Russian site):
How a US ‘peace plan’ brought war to Israel’s doorstep
....Two words: Abraham Accords. The United States’ push to create a one-sided, unbalanced and effective appeasement of Israel’s actions, coupled with an attempt to use such to isolate Iran, has led to the calculation by Hamas that the only way to salvage its cause is to unleash a full-scale armed struggle. In doing so, the militants’ goal is not to destroy Israel head on, because we must acknowledge that such an outcome is not possible. Rather, it is to turn the diplomatic and political tide in the region against Israel and the US in the name of a new Jihad.
The Abraham Accords are a peace initiative started in 2020 by the Trump administration that seeks to get Arab countries to unilaterally recognize the State of Israel, without West Jerusalem itself making any concessions regarding the issue of Palestinian statehood. Through the accords, driven by the pro-Israel fanaticism of former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, the US was successful in getting the United Arab Emirates, Sudan, Morocco, and Bahrain to open up diplomatic relations with Israel. The US typically incentivized this by making unilateral concessions to these countries as part of a deal, such as removing Sudan from the State Sponsor of Terrorism list or recognizing Morocco’s sovereignty over the Western Sahara.....
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