There has been a call for a "global day of jihad" Friday by a former HIMAS leader. Probably nothing, but, stay aware.
There has been a call for a "global day of jihad" Friday by a former HIMAS leader. Probably nothing, but, stay aware.
aircooled said:There has been a call for a "global day of jihad" Friday by a former HIMAS leader. Probably nothing, but, stay aware.
This is why Israel should destroy them and all who support them. There is no negotiating with them. There is no honor in them. There is no truth in them. There is no humanity in them.
They should be destroyed. Root and branch.
The rest of the world should cheer them on.
In reply to Toyman! :
agreed. I believe this is the quote we are looking for:
aircooled said:In reply to VolvoHeretic :
They way I look at it is: If you tell "tribes" of people they hate each other enough.... eventually they will start thinking it themselves (very relevant to this thread).
Hate / drama sells gets views (used to be "sells newspapers")
1% of the population are always going to be a-holes. Don't let anyone tell you they are representative of whatever "tribe" they happen to be assigned to (not super applicable to this topic, but is reasonable for the US I think).
Yes a small percentage of evil people are always trying to manipulate things to achieve their aims. This is universal. This is a great example (Hamas) but there are many more.
I have spent a lot of time in the Middle East. I have a passport that ran out of pages. There is one universal thing I've found that is true there and everywhere else. Education is the problem. The less educated and capable a person is of thinking for themselves the more likely they will be manipulated by evil people. Look at the Palestinians and Hamas. The US is having similar problems in our major cities. Fixing education is the first step in improving the world. It the first step in returning our country to its best version of itself too.
Because of the work I did I always interacted with the most educated in the Middle East. They are very much like us. They are also in shock by the inhumanity of all this. The uneducated are the ones manipulated into committing evil by even more evil people.
Don't misunderstand me. Education can't fix evil. Education does reduce the pool of people available to be controlled and manipulated by evil. If educated people will set their minor differences aside, together they could do a lot more to reduce evil and improve the world for all. In the end that is all I want. Too many times no matter the subject, people get lost in minutia.
In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
Unfortunately, the powers that be have no interest in an educated populace. They want the population ignorant and easy to control.
And that's not happening just in the Middle East.
Toyman! said:This is why Israel should destroy them and all who support them. There is no negotiating with them. There is no honor in them. There is no truth in them. There is no humanity in them.
They should be destroyed. Root and branch.
The rest of the world should cheer them on.
Here is the issue, they think the same about you. Their beliefs about you are as strong as your beliefs about them. You think they should be killed, they think you should be killed, how is you believing they need to be dead different from them believing you should be dead? Both side are cheering "the other side dead" and think THEY are correct, so what is the solution? If you are OK with death in the name of what you believe is "right" then you have to accept they think the same thing, it's just a different version of what is "right".
I don't need the reply of "so you support the killing of babies" etc. as both sides have killed plenty of women and children. I am just trying to point out how it's not as simpe as "the other side needs to be destroyed"
In reply to Steve_Jones :
Distinct differences...
One side believes "you can have whatever religious beliefs you want, or even none at all, so long as you don't hurt people".
The othere believes "you can think like me or die".
The latter cannot be reasoned with.
There isn't a scrap of surface of this earth that hasn't been bled over. Everywhere belonged to someone else before. Eventually, the strongest end up holding a piece of land while the weaker run away to lick their wounds. Its been that way since before language existed.
We can convince ourselves that we have progressed, that we aren't animals, but the thin veneer of civility is broken easily. The last several decades of relative peace have been an anomaly in the timeline of humanity.
Steve_Jones said:Toyman! said:This is why Israel should destroy them and all who support them. There is no negotiating with them. There is no honor in them. There is no truth in them. There is no humanity in them.
They should be destroyed. Root and branch.
The rest of the world should cheer them on.
Here is the issue, they think the same about you. Their beliefs about you are as strong as your beliefs about them. You think they should be killed, they think you should be killed, how is you believing they need to be dead different from them believing you should be dead? Both side are cheering "the other side dead" and think THEY are correct, so what is the solution? If you are OK with death in the name of what you believe is "right" then you have to accept they think the same thing, it's just a different version of what is "right".
I don't need the reply of "so you support the killing of babies" etc. as both sides have killed plenty of women and children. I am just trying to point out how it's not as simpe as "the other side needs to be destroyed"
If the disagreement was just that on the surface you have a point. But sadly we (global we) have tried to appease and placate them etc. They don't care. If you don't believe their way, or are a woman or whatever they want to kill you. How does one resolve that? You don't, except with swift and overwhelming violence.
Toyman! said:aircooled said:There has been a call for a "global day of jihad" Friday by a former HIMAS leader. Probably nothing, but, stay aware.
This is why Israel should destroy them and all who support them. There is no negotiating with them. There is no honor in them. There is no truth in them. There is no humanity in them.
They should be destroyed. Root and branch.
The rest of the world should cheer them on.
I understand the passion but, that's basically the definition of genocide "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."
4cylndrfury said:In reply to Steve_Jones :
Distinct differences...
One side believes "you can have whatever religious beliefs you want, or even none at all, so long as you don't hurt people".
The othere believes "you can think like me or die".
The latter cannot be reasoned with.
You don't think there are people like that on the hardline Israeli side?
No matter how self-righteous Israel may be, their far right wing is just as hell-bent on squeezing the Palestinians out of existence. 50-70 years of Israeli pressure on the Gaza Strip and the West Bank prove it.
It's a situation where nobody is particularly correct, and the worst of all are the British who FUBARed an already challenging area, and then completely washed their hands of it.
Toyman! said:In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
Unfortunately, the powers that be have no interest in an educated populace. They want the population ignorant and easy to control.
And that's not happening just in the Middle East.
And that's why we all need to get on the same page. We can change the powers that be if we focus and work together. That is really difficult in the current situation. People are very divided on fringe issues and not united on universal problems.
For this to end and not just be another event in the cycle, Hamas (or Israel) must be Destroyed.
How does that happen? Even if Hamas is killed off or pushed into a hole where they surrender, returning to the pre-war status changes nothing. The combatants must be crushed, but that does not lead to a significant change. How can the Palestinians go forward without reverting to the same conditions - the Hamas ideology destroyed.
Steve_Jones said:Toyman! said:This is why Israel should destroy them and all who support them. There is no negotiating with them. There is no honor in them. There is no truth in them. There is no humanity in them.
They should be destroyed. Root and branch.
The rest of the world should cheer them on.
Here is the issue, they think the same about you. Their beliefs about you are as strong as your beliefs about them. You think they should be killed, they think you should be killed, how is you believing they need to be dead different from them believing you should be dead? Both side are cheering "the other side dead" and think THEY are correct, so what is the solution? If you are OK with death in the name of what you believe is "right" then you have to accept they think the same thing, it's just a different version of what is "right".
I don't need the reply of "so you support the killing of babies" etc. as both sides have killed plenty of women and children. I am just trying to point out how it's not as simpe as "the other side needs to be destroyed"
If you can't see the difference between a reasonable person who is willing to live and let live and a religious fanatic who only wants to kill those not like him then so be it. You are beyond my ability to explain it.
Israel has been trying to negotiate with Palestine since the 1950s. They offer concessions, and Israelis die. They enforce the rule of law, and Israelis die. They retaliate with overwhelming force when bombed, and Israelis die. They encourage elections, Palestine elects terrorists and Israelis die. For 60 years, by their own admission, the Palestinians and the Arab world have not negotiated in good faith. Always attacking, bombing, and killing Israeli civilians. They only care about the death of Israel and the Jewish people as a whole. Expecting change now is foolishness. The Israel state should make total war on them and sow the land with salt. Dead people can not shoot rockets or rape and murder people.
AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) said:For this to end and not just be another event in the cycle, Hamas (or Israel) must be Destroyed.
How does that happen? Even if Hamas is killed off or pushed into a hole where they surrender, returning to the pre-war status changes nothing. The combatants must be crushed, but merely killing combatants does not lead to a significant change. How can the Palestinians go forward without reverting to the same conditions - the Hamas ideology destroyed.
Not even then. Hitler tried to end the jews, and he really went all-in, and didn't do it. Every Islamic group which has been extinguished has simply given birth to a new one. I lost track of all of the names.
Dave Barry and Alan Zweibel solved this issue.
https://www.amazon.com/Lunatics-Dave-Barry/dp/0399158693
There is no destroying them "root and branch". Terrorism is a spore that blows in the wind. It will always find conditions that support it's growth. It is not eradicable, just somewhat containable. If every single Hamas member in Gaza were killed, their leaders, who have already fled, will just begin reconstituting the organization. It might not be called Hamas the next time, but rest assured that there will be a next time. The leaders say that Islam embraces martyrdom, yet you don't see their leaders making martyrs of themselves. It's their people who have to make the sacrifice.
I really hope that Israel does not invade Gaza wholesale. They've already made their point and that would be politically diminishing returns while shedding more blood. But Israels policy of disproportionate response would seem to point to this going on for a long time.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:Toyman! said:In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
Unfortunately, the powers that be have no interest in an educated populace. They want the population ignorant and easy to control.
And that's not happening just in the Middle East.
And that's why we all need to get on the same page. We can change the powers that be if we focus and work together. That is really difficult in the current situation. People are very divided on fringe issues and not united on universal problems.
I don't know that that is possible in the Middle East. There are few common values to build common ground on.
Toyman! said:For 60 years, by their own admission, the Palestinians and the Arab world have not negotiated in good faith.
This may be true of the Palestinians, but even the Israelis recognize that Arab states can and will negotiate in good faith when it is in their interest to do so. Egypt and Jordan have been reliable partners in maintaining stability in the region, and Saudi Arabia was on track to join them prior to this outbreak. Hell, the Mossad sent out a message on social media yesterday thanking the Jordanians from using their military to prevent potential terrorists and troublemakers from crossing into the West Bank.
What makes the Palestinian problem unique are geography (for obvious reasons), lack of unity of government, and most importantly that their most basic interests are incompatible with Israel's; this is most certainly not the case for Arab states. Because of the mutual exclusivity of these interests, and because the Palestinians are distinctly weaker and feel they have very little to lose, conflict remains the de facto mode of interaction.
tuna55 said: Every Islamic group which has been extinguished has simply given birth to a new one. I lost track of all of the names.
The only smart thing to do in the Middle East is accept that conflict is inevitable and find ways to profit and increase power from it. -World Leaders.
johndej said:Toyman! said:aircooled said:There has been a call for a "global day of jihad" Friday by a former HIMAS leader. Probably nothing, but, stay aware.
This is why Israel should destroy them and all who support them. There is no negotiating with them. There is no honor in them. There is no truth in them. There is no humanity in them.
They should be destroyed. Root and branch.
The rest of the world should cheer them on.
I understand the passion but, that's basically the definition of genocide "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."
I am a firm believer that rabid people should be put down just like rabid dogs.
If a neighboring family was bound and determined to wipe your entire family from the face of the earth, what would you do? You try to reason with them and they murder your child. You buy them off and they rape your wife or daughters. You forcibly subdue them and they sneak a bomb into your house. For 75 years, you have tried many things to get along with them but they always murder, rape, and bomb. So, what do you do?
That leaves few choices. At some point, you have to either leave your home to be harried wherever you go, as the Jewish people have been for literally 1000s of years, or you destroy those who are in turn doing all they can to destroy you and yours.
I know what my choice would be.
Toyman! said:Steve_Jones said:Toyman! said:This is why Israel should destroy them and all who support them. There is no negotiating with them. There is no honor in them. There is no truth in them. There is no humanity in them.
Here is the issue, they think the same about you. Their beliefs about you are as strong as your beliefs about them.
If you can't see the difference between a reasonable person who is willing to live and let live and a religious fanatic who only wants to kill those not like him then so be it. You are beyond my ability to explain it.
There are people like that on both sides of the equation.
I hate radicalism in any form. Religious radicalism is even more hateful since it is based on completely subjective beliefs. Radical Islam does indeed hold power over a largely destitute and uneducated population.
But if you want to think that Israel is completely blameless in this situation, you are beyond my ability to explain it.
Perhaps it is religious radicalism itself we should be rooting out and destroying... not just one particular flavor of it.
In reply to 02Pilot :
Unfortunately, many Arab countries are placating at the front door while encouraging terrorists out of the back door.
You want to stop the madness in the Middle East, the Arab world needs to police themselves. If the Saudis, Egypt, Jordan and so on need to enforce laws against the terrorists and educate their populations. But they don't do that, do they? Why is that?
In reply to Duke :
The Jewish people have been persecuted for thousands of years. The winners of the last World War, the UN, carved out a place for them to live to separate the Palestinian Jews from the Palestinian Arabs to keep the Arabs from slaughtering the Jews when Britain pulled out. A home if you will. Do you expect them to not protect it?
Bernard Shaw laid it out pretty well with this quote"
“Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people.”
Depressing thought.
I believe Toyman is really referring to destroying HAMAS, not the Palestinians in general (right?).
Not an unreasonable position, especially considering their position, but, as the saying goes, the devil is in the details. To destroy / kill all of HAMAS, who do you kill? Well, I highly suspect (not really sure) all the true members are men, although I am also sure, there are many female supporters. How do you determine membership? What if they just take of the headband, drop their weapons, then slink into the shadows?
What about those who support HAMAS in word only, simply to survive in a HAMAS controlled society?
You also have the issue of when you kill them, they have relatives / friends who may not be hard core HAMAS, who then may become motivated to become that.
It brings up an interesting(!) discussion we had in the Ukraine thread about the rationality of genocide (yeah, I know!). And... realistically, in some circumstances, it is very rational (rational does NOT imply right / correct / proper), for the reasons noted above. The only way to truly avoid future retribution, is to just eliminate all possible sources.
To be clear, I am NOT advocating genocide, just the motivation as to why someone would choose that.
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