History in the making Part 2: War in the Middle East

aircooled said:

The question:  What does "Free Palatine" mean?

Wait, this Palatine?

Or this one?

Sorry, it's Friday and I'm punchy. I'll stop now.

aircooled said:

I am honestly wondering if anyone can answer this question for me:

As noted, today is the day of protests.  There are protest going on in support of the Palestinians.  I don't find them, at this time, entirely unreasonable (the protest / demonstrations right after the attack where wildly inappropriate in my opinion) because of the great potential for civilian casualties (as noted, likely greatly increased in potential by the actions HAMAS to help create their martyrs).  In these protests, there are commonly signs for "Free Palestine".

The question:  What does "Free Palatine" mean?  Free them to what?  To where?

There is really no where else for them to go (unless they displace Israel).  Clearly they can not live with the Jews (that has been tried).  Egypt clearly does not want them.  Jordan clearly does not want them. (note: most of this "do not want" is clearly related to the HAMAS type thinking, not the people in general)

Free them from occupation?  Well, in Gaza, they are not occupied, they are entirely self-governed.  Yes, in the West Bank, there is a mixture of Israeli governance and Palestinian self-governance, but as can be clearly seen in Gaza, self-governing means letting HAMAS pursue it's primary goal of killing Jews well above taking care and advancing the lives of Palestinians (which I honestly think is a primary issue here, along of course with the hardliner Israelis).

Free them from what?  Free them to where?   (and we clearly cannot change the past here, so....)

To stop being a pedantic tool and more seriously address your question, there is no answer that is mutually acceptable. Geography is the problem - both groups want the same land. It's not about land, it's about that land. Both groups value it for more than just its available resources and suitability for human habitation, in the same way that the Crusaders did. Because control of it is directly linked to religious meaning, control of the land means control of important religious sites, and by implication, a perception of divine favor and authority.

One might ask, then, if that's the case, how have Christians and Jews managed to get along (more or less) in Israel. Here I think it's more about culture. Both most Israeli Jews and some Christians share a Western cultural outlook, while the Palestinians are of a very different perspective (generally). Arguably one of the best ways to get a sense of how Arab groups interact is to read T.E. Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom, or failing that, watch Lawrence of Arabia, which does a reasonable if simplified job of presenting Lawrence's point of view on this.

In short, I don't know that a solution exists. Even if another country were to throw open its doors and welcome every last Palestinian, offering them jobs, land, and a better life, there would always be a revanchist element that would seek to reclaim what they see as rightfully theirs. In the ancient world, this would have been much easier to solve, as seen in the Melian Dialogue or the Third Punic War.

In reply to 02Pilot :

 No, you ignoramus.... I obviously miss-typed and meant this guy:  

(I am hoping the emojis make is very obvious how playful the above post is)

Duke said:

In reply to 4cylndrfury :

And your assumption that a situation that is decades and centuries old is entirely one-sided is becoming frustrating.

Israel has made efforts to negotiate, true.  Israel has also made efforts to push Palestinians entirely out of Israel, and to expand into areas already designated for Palestinian occupation.

In 1948 Israel displaced three quarters of a million Palestinians in response to the Negev attack.  Most if not all of those people were innocent civilians.  It was much like the US interning thousands of Japanese-Americans in response to Pearl Harbor.

The difference is that the US realized it was wrong and released the internees and (eventually) formally apologized.  The Israelis have not, almost certainly will not, and have continued their efforts to ghettoize Palestinians.

Is it any surprise that there is terroristic response?

 

There is a long history of wounds to the Palestinian people that isn't easy to smooth over. I think it is a bit disingenuous to say that just cause the Israeli government has attempted to have them self govern that that should make the Palestinians happy. The Human Right Watch has called Gaza and open air prison, 80% of people living in Gaza rely on humanitarian aid, half the population lives in poverty and 80% unemployed.

Now HAMAS actions are still terrible and I doubt that really care about the Palestinian people but I understand why a hardline group like that has support in the Gaza Strip.

02Pilot said:

 

....One might ask, then, if that's the case, how have Christians and Jews managed to get along (more or less) in Israel....

Of note here is that Israel has a rather significant number Muslims not only living in Israel, but having representatives in it's government!  Whatever is going on with that, also seems like a potential road forward (not to imply all Muslims are the same)

I am also starting to wonder how much of this "war" is entirely media / marketing / psy-ops driving (clearly a good amount).

Someone mentioned that his guess was the Israelis won't even invade, they will do everything to make it look like they will, in order to capture the reaction of HAMAS preventing civilians from leaving etc.  (not sure how they would capture this, it would need to be outside media obviously, if they will report it).

The latest video out of HAMAS, (who's own media / marketing seems to be it's worst enemy, at least in regards to the west) is a video of HAMAS fighter, taking care of Israeli babies.  Holding them, rocking them in basinets etc.....  here are some pics from it:

Can't even put down the assault rifle to hold the baby eh?

....it comes off rather disgusting to me....

....and exactly HOW did you come about having these babies, and where are their parents?

...now show us the young women you have captured...

I did hear an interview with a capture HAMAS raider.  They asked him about the women they captured.  He was reluctant to talk, but eventually told them, "they were being dirtied".   Obviously a translation thing, but I think you can figure it out.

I would be very surprised if any of those women are ever returned in any way, other than a burned corpse.

Correct me if I'm wrong, since I was raised as an Atheist from childhood (but I have watched a lot of History Channel), but aren't Christians and Muslims actually really just Jews, descended from Abraham, who have been saved by their respective Messiahs? Shouldn't we be just one big happy family?

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

They all worship the same god.  Yes, they are VERY much related.  Jesus is a very much a part of both Islam and Judaism, for example.

       (Someone who is more of a religious scholar can likely give a much better explanation.)

Many times I have found, people tend to have the most hate for those who are most like them.... just not quite the same.  Perhaps it's just a tendency for more familiarity or closeness.

VolvoHeretic said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, since I was raised as an Atheist from childhood (but I have watched a lot of History Channel), but aren't Christians and Muslims actually really just Jews, descended from Abraham, who have been saved by their respective Messiahs? Shouldn't we be just one big happy family?

You would think so, wouldn't you?

I had a wall of text typed up, but rather than aggravate anyone, I will just state that has not been my experience, and leave it at that.

aircooled said:

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

They all worship the same god.  Yes, they are VERY much related.  Jesus is a very much a part of both Islam and Judaism, for example.

       (Someone who is more of a religious scholar can likely give a much better explanation.)

Many times I have found, people tend to have the most hate for those who are most like them.... just not quite the same.  Perhaps it's just a tendency for more familiarity or closeness.

It's complicated. Only the Muslims hate the other two.

The Jews believe that Jesus either was merely a prophet or he was made up or wrong. They are still waiting for the messiah, and therefore wide swaths of the old testament that point directly to him. They did this (began to disregard prophets like Isaiah and Zechariah) after he came, which is interesting.

The Christians believe Jesus was the messiah. Mostly because he said so and proved it to lots of people.

The Muslims vary, but believe that Jesus was a prophet of some sort, but his resurrection wasn't real. Then Muhammad came (some 700 years later) and rewrote most of the Bible to be about him and killing and rape and murder being OK, then did all of that. A lot.

Thus should conclude the religious knowledge required for this thread. Please don't flounder it. I'm just scratching the surface, and have Jewish, Atheist and Muslim friends. I've not read the Quran, just synposes, but I've read the Bible, both OT and NT about five times each.

tuna55 said:

aircooled said:

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

They all worship the same god.

It's complicated. Only the Muslims hate the other two.

I... fundamentally disagree with that statement.

I agree that some factions of Islam are currently codifying that hatred to a greater extent than either of the other two.  And I would say, historically, that Judaism has traditionally harbored the least amount of that hatred.

But a blanket statement like that is totally inaccurate.

tuna55 said:

The Muslims vary, but believe that Jesus was a prophet of some sort, but his resurrection wasn't real. Then Muhammad came (some 700 years later) and rewrote most of the Bible to be about him and killing and rape and murder being OK, then did all of that. A lot.

Thus should conclude the religious knowledge required for this thread. Please don't flounder it. I'm just scratching the surface, and have Jewish, Atheist and Muslim friends. I've not read the Quran, just synposes, but I've read the Bible, both OT and NT about five times each.

This entire paragraph is patently untrue, and if this is the direction we're planning to take this thread, I will be unable to participate.

tuna55 said:

It's complicated. Only the Muslims hate the other two right now.

FTFY. Over the two millennia or so of Christianity, they've had their fair share of haters. And there some orthodox Jewish sects that are pretty hard-core too. How much of all that animosity is actually based on theological differences, as opposed to say, political ones, is a very different question.

The real problem is that commonality of religious descent; because they all stem from the same root, they all want control of the ground where the seed was planted.

02Pilot said:

tuna55 said:

It's complicated. Only the Muslims hate the other two right now.

FTFY. Over the two millennia or so of Christianity, they've had their fair share of haters. And there some orthodox Jewish sects that are pretty hard-core too. How much of all that animosity is actually based on theological differences, as opposed to say, political ones, is a very different question.

The real problem is that commonality of religious descent; because they all stem from the same root, they all want control of the ground where the seed was planted.

Thank you.

Duke said:

tuna55 said:

aircooled said:

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

They all worship the same god.

It's complicated. Only the Muslims hate the other two.

I... fundamentally disagree with that statement.

I agree that some factions of Islam are currently codifying that hatred to a greater extent than either of the other two.  And I would say, historically, that Judaism has traditionally harbored the least amount of that hatred.

But a blanket statement like that is totally inaccurate.

 

I'm going to have to agree with Duke here. 

Historically, Christians have killed many because of religion. Not only Jews but also other Christians. The Old Testament is full of commands to kill and stone others. The New Testament turns a new page, but humans are going to be human. Only recently have Christians begun to temper their religious fervor and there are still many Christians that believe in conversion of the knife. The difference is the majority of Christians immediately denounce the fanatics. 

tuna55 said:

Only the Muslims hate the other two.

This is NOT true. 

In reply to 02Pilot :

Sorry, I forgot to actually reply to response to my question of what does "Free Palestine" mean.

While I think your answer is entirely reasonable and likely correct, I was actually more interested in what the protesters, let's say more specifically, the protesters on many US college campuses for example, think it means.

And yes, I know the likely real answer is: they really have no idea realistically, they are mostly acting impulsively / emotionally.

BTW I "think" this is not related to the Free Palestine group, at least from their perspective (they could easily be being manipulated of course), which is basically an anti-Israel existence group.

But, does anyone know what (they at least think) it means?

In reply to Toyman! :

You don't even have to go far back at all. Westboro Baptist Church. Or the Christchurch mosque shootings. Or this guy, who specifically called out Jesus, Paul the Apostle, and Martin Luther as his inspirations. 

And that is just in the US. We may not like to think of these people as Christians, but they're committing these acts of hatred in the name of Christ.

In reply to mtn :

Did you read what I wrote? 

Toyman! said:

Historically, Christians have killed many because of religion. Not only Jews but also other Christians. The Old Testament is full of commands to kill and stone others. The New Testament turns a new page, but humans are going to be human. Only recently have Christians begun to temper their religious fervor and there are still many Christians that believe in conversion of the knife. The difference is the majority of Christians immediately denounce the fanatics. 

"History in the making Part 2: War in the Middle East"

Can the usual suspects cut back on the same old the religion discussion that they do every time the opportunity presents?

Much of it could be cut and paste from your past posts. We get it.

This has, understandably, tipped into a lot of prohibited forum topics--which are prohibited because they provoke people, often to the point of war--so I'm going to lock this topic and encourage everyone to appreciate the freedom we have here to coexist peacefully and worship (or not) as we choose. 

Margie