History in the Making: Russian Invasion

NickD said:

Mndsm said:

Boost_Crazy said:

Is it just me or does this feel a bit like an 80's B movie script? We've got a champion boxer turned mayor, an actor turned President, criminals, and the former Miss Ukraine fighting side by side to beat back the Russians. We even have lines appropriate for the movie. "I don't need a ride, I need more ammo." "Russian warship- go berkeley your self." 

It's playing out like a cheap knockoff, but somehow better version of red dawn. Only Patrick swayze is already dead. 

You also had everyone's favorite podcast host spreading tales of Steven Seagal fighting for the Russians. Not true, but shockingly not that far out of line. Seagal is friends with Vladimir Putin and the Belarusian president, has Russian citizenship, and has a history of making really stupid decisions.

I can totally see Segal and Putin riding bear back across the Ukraine to save Mother Russia - one dome chrome - one chrome dome covered in a bad rug.  A couple of gold plated AK's on their backs and terrorizing the opposing forces.  Have to come up with a snarky movie title?  "Vlad and the lad do Ukraine"?

In reply to Russian Warship, Go Berkeley Yourself :

Thanks. I wasn't sure if thermobaric and vacuum bomb was the same thing.  I saw where the thermobarics we're discussed here a few pages back. 

I grew up with Kiev as the capital of Ukrane, and it was pronounced -"Key-Ehv". Now I am seeing Kyiv and hearing "Keev".  Apparently, both are correct. 

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

I grew up with Kiev as the capital of Ukrane, and it was pronounced -"Key-Ehv". Now I am seeing Kyiv and hearing "Keev".  Apparently, both are correct. 

From what I read, Russians call it key-ehv and Ukrainians call it keev.

In reply to pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) :

I feel like this is true of other foreign cities...for example, Bombay, now Mumbai. I think the names we grew up with were English/American bastardizations of the actual names, easier to pronounce for us English speakers. Watch the news anchors stumble hilariously over a new and different foreign city name the first time that place is prominently in the news. 

On the flip side I'd pay money to hear some foreign news sources pronounce pretty much any town name in Massachusetts besides Boston. 

tuna55 said:

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

I grew up with Kiev as the capital of Ukrane, and it was pronounced -"Key-Ehv". Now I am seeing Kyiv and hearing "Keev".  Apparently, both are correct. 

From what I read, Russians call it key-ehv and Ukrainians call it keev.

Ah. So, if you pronounce it the first way, you're a secret Russian sympathizer.  Got it. 

Ukranian citizens filling sandbags while chanting "Russian warship, go berk yourselves"

These people aren't going to go quietly

volvoclearinghouse said:

tuna55 said:

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

I grew up with Kiev as the capital of Ukrane, and it was pronounced -"Key-Ehv". Now I am seeing Kyiv and hearing "Keev".  Apparently, both are correct. 

From what I read, Russians call it key-ehv and Ukrainians call it keev.

Ah. So, if you pronounce it the first way, you're a secret Russian sympathizer.  Got it. 

Again, for hundreds of years, Russia has systematically tried to turn Ukraine into Russia.  Including trying to erase their language.

I'm curious though, now that you know the difference which way are you going to pronounce it?

Having nothing at all to do with the war, I've always been fascinated by the fact that we're always calling places by weird names.  Some of it is understandable - I know that post Cold War, a lot of the Baltic states changed their names and stuff so it was hard to keep up.  But some of it is just weird.  I mean, I figure it makes sense to call a place what the people who live there call it, right?  But to us it's Germany, not Deutschland.  I can get a little bit of bastardization of the pronunciation - we say MEX-eee-koh not may-HEE-koh and PARE-is not PAH-<swallow a consonant>-ree - but Japan instead of Nippon?  It's just kind of weird to me.  And it gets even weirder when you have folks that use a different alphabet from you and it's more than just pronouncing the letters that you already recognize.

Not that it's right, wrong, or indifferent - I just find it kind of interesting.

I grew up with "KEE-ev" because that's just how the USSR rolled, I guess.  They gave the places in their empire Russian names in Russian Cyrillic and we all just went along with it because it wasn't like it was real easy to ask anybody behind the Iron Curtain what their opinion was.  But if it is "KEEVE" in Ukrainian, then I'm all for it.  Although, I will say that I have heard some interviews with people from that city where it's sounded a little more like a mix between the two pronunciations.

Update on the donation of USSR-era jets from EU members to Ukraine. 

Ukraine says they are being picked up now: https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-says-pilots-poland-picking-054947409.html

Stripes (US Military Newspaper) says "maybe": https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2022-03-01/poland-nato-russia-invasion-ukraine-5185737.html

MSN says it's not happening (probably): https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/eus-ukraine-fighter-jet-promise-falling-apart-as-russia-advances/ar-AAUsCTY

Truth is the first casualty, etc.

Mr_Asa said:

volvoclearinghouse said:

tuna55 said:

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

I grew up with Kiev as the capital of Ukrane, and it was pronounced -"Key-Ehv". Now I am seeing Kyiv and hearing "Keev".  Apparently, both are correct. 

From what I read, Russians call it key-ehv and Ukrainians call it keev.

Ah. So, if you pronounce it the first way, you're a secret Russian sympathizer.  Got it. 

Again, for hundreds of years, Russia has systematically tried to turn Ukraine into Russia.  Including trying to erase their language.

I'm curious though, now that you know the difference which way are you going to pronounce it?

I'm the farthest thing you could possibly get from a Russian sympathizer but until two days ago I've only ever heard it pronounced key-ehv. I see no reason to change.  

At the moment,  China has positioned itself to only gain from this. Meanwhile the US and EU are further hurting their own economies with the sanctions and expenditures. There's little doubt that China has a significant role in developing and supporting Putin's plan. I hope the rest of the world makes them pay a price for it.

volvoclearinghouse said:

In reply to pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) :

I feel like this is true of other foreign cities...for example, Bombay, now Mumbai. I think the names we grew up with were English/American bastardizations of the actual names, easier to pronounce for us English speakers. Watch the news anchors stumble hilariously over a new and different foreign city name the first time that place is prominently in the news. 

On the flip side I'd pay money to hear some foreign news sources pronounce pretty much any town name in Massachusetts besides Boston. 

You mean Bahstan?

wae said:

  I can get a little bit of bastardization of the pronunciation - we say MEX-eee-koh not may-HEE-koh and PARE-is not PAH-<swallow a consonant>-ree - but Japan instead of Nippon?  It's just kind of weird to me.  And it gets even weirder when you have folks that use a different alphabet from you and it's more than just pronouncing the letters that you already recognize.

Some naming is bastardization, some is hearing it wrong, others are names stuck on a map (like America) which the rest of the world then follows.

"Japan" is from Chinese. "China" is from Sanskrit. It's like European explorers asked "who are those guys?" from the country they were in and went with that.

In reply to Nick Comstock :

That's just what a Russian sympathizer would say!

Putin did exactly what he said he was going to do if things didn't change.   

Like Ten Bears said to Josie Wales: "There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see...".     

Nick Comstock said:

Mr_Asa said:

volvoclearinghouse said:

tuna55 said:

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

I grew up with Kiev as the capital of Ukrane, and it was pronounced -"Key-Ehv". Now I am seeing Kyiv and hearing "Keev".  Apparently, both are correct. 

From what I read, Russians call it key-ehv and Ukrainians call it keev.

Ah. So, if you pronounce it the first way, you're a secret Russian sympathizer.  Got it. 

Again, for hundreds of years, Russia has systematically tried to turn Ukraine into Russia.  Including trying to erase their language.

I'm curious though, now that you know the difference which way are you going to pronounce it?

I'm the farthest thing you could possibly get from a Russian sympathizer but until two days ago I've only ever heard it pronounced key-ehv. I see no reason to change.  

Once I heard it pronounced, I tried to start saying it the way people who live there do. Like pronouncing someone's name. I worked with a guy named Gnanasambuthu, and he just went by SAM (all in caps when written), so I called him, learned to say it, and that's that.

The only exception to that was Polish. I had a guy join my team named Bozydar. The first call with Team Poland went like this:

Me: "blah blah and welcome to the newest member of the team, Bozydar."

:: Polish giggling ::

Tomasz (still giggling): "We wondered how you would say that! It's Bozydar!"

Me: "Bozydar?"

Tomasz: "No no no! It's Bozydar (giggling)"

Me: "Bozydar?"

Entire Polish team: "No no no!" giggling uncontrollably.

To me it sounded the exact same. I gave up.

The China question is one that has a few facets and a lot of uncertainty. On the one hand, it's fairly clear that China is the primary beneficiary in terms of partnering with Russia on trade and providing economic options foreclosed in the West. Provided the West does not move to isolate China for sanctions-busting, this provides essentially free leverage for China with Russia, as Russia becomes dependent on Chinese largesse (much as many Soviet-oriented states were dependent on Soviet assistance, and had their arms twisted as a result). But if the West does limit China - and outcome I do not see as likely in the near-term for several reasons - the problem could become significant, as Russia offers very little outlet for Chinese-produced consumer goods.

The more open question, however, is what lessons China (and Taiwan) take away from Russia's operation in Ukraine. For China, the unexpected resistance of Ukraine may cause them to reconsider their approach to Taiwan. In the short-term, this could mean a redoubling of efforts to undermine Taiwanese unity and nationalist sentiment by fomenting political unrest and division. Funding pro-China organizations (many of these operate semi-openly around the world) and working to counter Taiwan's efforts to modernize and improve their military by promoting peace initiatives would be expected. For the Taiwanese, there's no information that I've seen (though I haven't looked very hard as yet) on public reactions to the situation in Ukraine, but if there is strong support for Ukraine, both the Chinese and the Taiwanese cannot help but see the parallels. In spite of increasing nationalist sentiment in Taiwan, I do not think they have anything like the sense of national unity seen in Ukraine at this point, and it is impossible to predict whether this would be fortified or shattered in the face of a Chinese invasion.

There is also the issue of how East Asian powers would react. It's fairly certain that Japan and South Korea would stand strongly against China in the event of an invasion of Taiwan, but unity among the many smaller nations in the region is far from guaranteed, and China would certainly be conducting preparatory political operations in those countries to undermine a unified response.

In reply to tuna55 :

There's a certain level of alcohol consumption that helps with eastern European/Cyrillic pronunciation. I'm guessing you were sober at the time. 

Truthfully, mechanical pronunciation and ACTUAL pronunciation of a language that isn't your native one is difficult. Like, not only is my Spanish terrible, my Spanish sounds closer to Mexican Spanish than pr Spanish, and they're two entirely different things, despite all the words being the same. It's no different than Texas English vs Minneapolis vs bahstan

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Yup. This is clearly all a misplay and escalation resulting from poor political planning by western leaders.

A better statesman would have gotten a political agreement that would have secured Peace in Our Time!

/sarcasm

Beer Baron said:

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Yup. This is clearly all a misplay and escalation resulting from poor political planning by western leaders.

A better statesman would have gotten a political agreement that would have secured Peace in Our Time!

/sarcasm

Seconded. Motion to carry?

Speaking of history, if you're wondering why the Ukrainians have balls of steel, it may be because they were recently the victims of a near genocide via famine:

Well, this I did not expect:  I found one news source that's reporting that the EU has accepted Ukraine's application for membership and is starting the special admission process.

In reply to 02Pilot :

Agreed.

Russia needs Europe and the Mediterranean because it's easy money, especially when we're talking natural gas. Eastern Europe can supply it's own gas if it wanted to, but Russians sold it for so cheap it was always more cost effective to buy from them. 

Russia does sell gas to China via the "Power of Siberia" pipeline, but its quite an indirect route around Mongolia. In order to feed the Central Asia Pipeline it would need to cross Kazakhstan.

As we know, however, China is pretty good about manipulating currencies and waging long-game economic warfare. I'm sure Russia would not want China as it's main trading partner. 

The other issue is the rest of Russia's economy is highly dependent on Europe. It could never compete in China because the trade routes are just not cheap enough, and Yen is worth 1/8th of the dollar. Not to mention, Russian corruption pales in comparison to Chinese control over its financial systems. Cheap manufacturing and natural resources are Russia's edge, for which China is far sharper already. 

Lastly, if Russia would need to benefit from a stronger relationship with China, it would also become the weaker partner - something Putin would probably despise. 

wae said:

Well, this I did not expect:  I found one news source that's reporting that the EU has accepted Ukraine's application for membership and is starting the special admission process.

This makes me really happy.

As I was growing into teenage years, I was a die-hard Ayn Rand libertarian. Patriotism and individualism and all that. As I grew a heart, and learned more, I read about the WWI battlefields, the death tolls, the incredible loss of life by France and Germany, the likes of which the US has never seen, I became more enamored with the idea of the EU. Sites like this still make my eyes water a bit if I think too hard. This is over Verdun, for reference.