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Sidewayze
Sidewayze Reader
3/11/22 9:19 p.m.
NOHOME said:

The one I find interesting is the 100s of leased passenger aircraft that are stuck in Russia. Mostly leased from Ireland Aercap.

Seems that Russia can not do the maintenance on these planes, and if the maintenance records lapse their value plummets. I guess deferred maintenance is a big no-no in the airplane industry.

I guess God forgot to mention Rule #1 to the Russians as they tend to go the opposite direction given the chance.

 

It's a bit more than value plummeting.  An aircraft with lapsed maintenance records essentially is a paperweight as it is then assumed that pretty much every part with a lifespan needs to be replaced before it can be deemed airworthy.

VolvoHeretic
VolvoHeretic GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/11/22 11:21 p.m.
Beer Baron said:

Regarding the whole "Nazi" thing, they were discussing where that came from on NPR. It wasn't totally out of nowhere, but it's weird and conflated history.

So, in WW2, Ukraine had two big threats it was concerned with but also had ties to: Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. Some Ukrainians sympathized with or even supported one side or the other to a different degree. Most Ukrainians were kinda scared of both groups. They weren't sure which one was the bigger threat.

As WW2 came to a close, it became clear the Soviets were the bigger threat. A lot of Ukrainians fought against Soviet occupation. Some of these had been supporters of Nazi Germany, but really they were all Ukrainian nationalists. Of course, Soviet Russia spun that to be a story that all the Ukrainian nationalists resisting Soviet rule were Nazis.

That myth stuck around in corners of Russia, and so it's an easy (but cheap and erroneous) argument to call Ukrainian nationalists opposed to Russian rule "Nazis".

How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine

Any one party rule ultimately just turns into a dictatorship. Funny how the people calling everyone else a Nazi really are the true Nazis.

Mndsm
Mndsm MegaDork
3/12/22 8:47 a.m.
VolvoHeretic said:
Beer Baron said:

Regarding the whole "Nazi" thing, they were discussing where that came from on NPR. It wasn't totally out of nowhere, but it's weird and conflated history.

So, in WW2, Ukraine had two big threats it was concerned with but also had ties to: Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. Some Ukrainians sympathized with or even supported one side or the other to a different degree. Most Ukrainians were kinda scared of both groups. They weren't sure which one was the bigger threat.

As WW2 came to a close, it became clear the Soviets were the bigger threat. A lot of Ukrainians fought against Soviet occupation. Some of these had been supporters of Nazi Germany, but really they were all Ukrainian nationalists. Of course, Soviet Russia spun that to be a story that all the Ukrainian nationalists resisting Soviet rule were Nazis.

That myth stuck around in corners of Russia, and so it's an easy (but cheap and erroneous) argument to call Ukrainian nationalists opposed to Russian rule "Nazis".

How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine

Any one party rule ultimately just turns into a dictatorship. Funny how the people calling everyone else a Nazi really are the true Nazis.

It's funny how the word Nazi has become diluted. It's gone from "fascist group that executed millions of Jews" to "political party that opposes my beliefs" and "mysterious Boogeyman that I can use for propaganda ".

 

Eventually it's going to come to the point where people aren't going to care, because people keep crying wolf to further their own agendas, and the real Nazis can lay low and be Nazis because no one's even paying attention.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
3/12/22 8:51 a.m.

In reply to VolvoHeretic :

Projection is a common tactic used by dictators, terrorists, etc.  Accuse your adversary of that which you are guilty of. It's become pretty common in politics in this country too, unfortunately- look how much the term "Nazi" gets used. 

Tellingly, my 5 year old likes to use projection.  For example, if we ask him if he's tired, he will snap back, "I'm not tired!  You're tired!". 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
3/12/22 10:01 a.m.
Mndsm said:
VolvoHeretic said:
Beer Baron said:

Regarding the whole "Nazi" thing, they were discussing where that came from on NPR. It wasn't totally out of nowhere, but it's weird and conflated history.

So, in WW2, Ukraine had two big threats it was concerned with but also had ties to: Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. Some Ukrainians sympathized with or even supported one side or the other to a different degree. Most Ukrainians were kinda scared of both groups. They weren't sure which one was the bigger threat.

As WW2 came to a close, it became clear the Soviets were the bigger threat. A lot of Ukrainians fought against Soviet occupation. Some of these had been supporters of Nazi Germany, but really they were all Ukrainian nationalists. Of course, Soviet Russia spun that to be a story that all the Ukrainian nationalists resisting Soviet rule were Nazis.

That myth stuck around in corners of Russia, and so it's an easy (but cheap and erroneous) argument to call Ukrainian nationalists opposed to Russian rule "Nazis".

How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine

Any one party rule ultimately just turns into a dictatorship. Funny how the people calling everyone else a Nazi really are the true Nazis.

It's funny how the word Nazi has become diluted. It's gone from "fascist group that executed millions of Jews" to "political party that opposes my beliefs" and "mysterious Boogeyman that I can use for propaganda ".

 

Eventually it's going to come to the point where people aren't going to care, because people keep crying wolf to further their own agendas, and the real Nazis can lay low and be Nazis because no one's even paying attention.

I thought it reached that point years ago. The same way people don't understand the difference between racist and bigot.

I would give examples demonstrating the difference between the two, but I don't want to patio this thread 

TRoglodyte
TRoglodyte UltraDork
3/12/22 10:38 a.m.

The Ukrainians know the Russians better than anyone and they have chosen to fight rather than capitulate.

QuasiMofo (John Brown)
QuasiMofo (John Brown) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/12/22 11:56 a.m.
TRoglodyte said:

The Ukrainians know the Russians better than anyone and they have chosen to fight rather than capitulate.

That says it all doesn't it?

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
3/12/22 12:20 p.m.

wae
wae PowerDork
3/12/22 12:22 p.m.

If I'm Putin, I'm looking at this as something that's going to be a long, dragged-out process that I will eventually prevail at, assuming I can remain in power long enough.  Yes, there are sanctions enforced, but I've got China that is probably willing to stick with me as well as some other countries that aren't "The West".  I also have tons of oil and gas as well as the ability to mine raw materials plus my factories are still intact and able to continue to produce military hardware.  I also have bodies to throw at the fight (for now) and I've got the ability (again, for now) to mostly control the narrative within my own borders.  The biggest danger to the operation is that the people find out what The West is saying about the Special Military Operation and start blaming Putin and The Kremlin for the pain that they're feeling economically.  But if Putin keeps up the Big Lie, he might be able to turn that whole economic pinch into propaganda.  If I were him, I would want to spin that to say that The West is so intent on keeping the nazis in power and committing genocide against our people that are trapped behind the borders of Ukraine, and so on that not only are they willing to kill the fellow Russian-speaking peoples that just want to be free of Ukranian oppression, but now they're coming after the Russian people, too.  Oh, and by the way, the evil imperialist United States has been working with Ukraine to develop dangerous bio weapons that specifically target Russians and they were planning to unleash this attack on us, so we had to take preemptive action.

Not all the people would believe that, of course, but you don't need to fool all the people all the time, just enough of them to keep from getting assassinated or overthrown and then assassinated.  Or, you know, abdicating power and then getting assassinated anyway which seems to be how the Russians like to roll, historically.

As far as The West is concerned, they aren't going to do a damned thing because they're terrified that Russia might respond with a nuclear strike.  And the best reads on Russian military doctrine seem to indicate that a small tactical nuclear strike might be considered acceptable.  Frankly, if Russia didn't have nukes I strongly suspect that there would have already been some sort of boots-on-the-ground in Ukraine.  Maybe another coalition of the willing, maybe NATO, maybe UN.  Putin know this, which is why he's been reminding everyone about his missiles.  Look at the hot potato game that's been played with the Polish Fulcrums to see how that has changed the balance.  And he's now saber-rattling about the supply convoys that are coming in from The West to resupply the Ukrainian military.

If I'm looking at this from the far end of the Putin table (which I think doubles as a soccer pitch), I would be betting that while Ukraine is able to put up a good fight, and while they're able to get some small arms, some anti-tank weapons, and some anti-air weapons, I have been successful in shutting down their ability to get any big iron into the country.  We're already seeing that as this drags on the Russians have lost any compunction against laying siege to the cities and pounding them with artillery fire and bombing them to ruin, so we can expect that to happen.  Since the Russians can manage to resupply themselves more effectively than the Ukrainians, they'll be able to continue to bring more of that type of hardware to bear on Kyiv and the other population centers.  Sure, there will be an insurgency and door-to-door fighting, but if I'm Russia, this looks like it is basically only a question of time before there's no real organized military left, nor any city standing to defend.  I might be losing equipment and people in greater numbers that I planned on, but for Putin this is probably a case of "some of you may die, but that's a chance I'm willing to take".

So if I slip back into Putin's slippers again, what would the downside be of hitting Kyiv with a medium-yield nuclear warhead?  Okay, so I have to worry about the fallout blowing back towards me right now, but I think the winds shift a little bit later in the year.  That might anger The West, but right now they're afraid of me because I might fire off a nuke.  Won't they be even more afraid of me if I show that I'm actually willing and able to do so?  I could justify it in similar fashion to how the US made the calculation to use the atomic bomb on Japan:  These people are going to drag out the war and keep fighting and fighting until there's almost no-one left.  That door-to-door fighting will result in the deaths of so many of their people and our boys that the best way to save the most lives is to bring this war to a swift end with a catastrophic blow.  Knowing Putin, he might even be able to spin that to his people that it was the only option to completely destroy the biological agent that was in the process of being deployed against Russia. 

If he did that, how would The West react to that?  How would China react?  Would the other non-NATO countries that Putin has his eyes on be more willing to just roll over and be assimilated into the USSR, Second Edition once they see that Putin was willing to do anything and that the most they could expect from The West would be sanctions and an attempt to funnel weapons to the local insurgency?  Russia would be a pariah state for much of the world, but would China and India continue to work with them, buying their oil and gas?  Would that be enough to keep their economy propped up enough?  Could or would the US cut off trade with China if China decided to stick with Russia and, by the way, go grab Taiwan while they're at it? 

To me, it looks like Putin's playing chicken with the world right now, waving his nukes around and daring us to make him stop,  Not that it's the wrong answer, but I think we've blinked first and he knows it.  We've decided that we don't want to risk going to war with a power that could use nukes and if the cost for that is $Ukraine, we're willing to pay it.

I dunno, just some stuff I was thinking about in the shower this morning.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/12/22 12:22 p.m.
tuna55 said:
aircooled said:

Another tidbit I heard:  The Russians are sending in MP units to the occupied areas.  This is of course to control THEIR soldiers.  Anyone familiar with the behaviors of the Russian soldiers in WWII (which apparently still lives on a bit) will know this is a bad thing for the civilians.

I'm almost glad that reporting hasn't started on this yet. They pretty much raped as a rule as they went through Europe. As I recall there were several cities and villages occupied by Nazi's that fled in terror when they heard the Russians were coming to liberate them.

Thinking about this a bit... I also wonder how much of the reason is to handle deserters.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
3/12/22 12:49 p.m.

In reply to wae :

I agree with much of what you wrote. The big question, though, is if Putin did use a nuke, would that be the line in the sand where NATO/the US finally said, all right, this isn't ok, we're in now. I think that might happen.  So, while Putin may have the whole " we've got a nuke" thing, if they actually use it, they may well and truly be berkeleyed. 

As might, I would add, the rest of the world. 

eastsideTim
eastsideTim PowerDork
3/12/22 4:03 p.m.

I don't know about nukes, but I suspect if Putin uses chemical weapons in Ukraine, at the very least, the amount of military aid and supplies in general being shipped there will dwarf what is happening now.

Mndsm
Mndsm MegaDork
3/12/22 4:04 p.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

That's probably the reason Putin hasn't done it already. He pulls the trigger, he knows that the us has the capability to dig a new grand canyon where Russia used to be, and while we may or may not ever do it, that's one of those risks he may want to avoid. It's not like we didn't already nuke Japan after trying to stay out of WW2.....

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/12/22 4:14 p.m.

In reply to Mndsm :

It wouldn't be the US that would do the deed this go around, it would be France. They're the force that has felt the brunt of a ground war on it's land after it rippled through eastern Europe and doesn't want to again. There are better options to nuclear, but if it goes down that road, unless it's in response to Putin using them first, it will be France that utilizes them. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/12/22 4:36 p.m.

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

People joke about France in WWII but their reality was they basically lost a whole generation because the men who would have fathered them died in Belgian mud.  They do not have that problem today.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa PowerDork
3/12/22 4:45 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

People joke about France in WWII but their reality was they basically lost a whole generation because the men who would have fathered them died in Belgian mud.  They do not have that problem today.

Also, have you seen them get pissed off when someone tries to pass a regulation or law that they don't agree with?  They burn it all down.  They don't give a E36 M3.

I'll joke about 'em all day, but I don't want to piss them off.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
3/12/22 6:51 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

People joke about France in WWII but their reality was they basically lost a whole generation because the men who would have fathered them died in Belgian mud.  They do not have that problem today.

This is truth here

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
3/12/22 9:00 p.m.
wae said:

 I've got China that is probably willing to stick with me

China is only "sticking with" Russia as a means to take advantage of Russia's situation. China has long done this to other pariah nations, offer tacit "look the other way" support in exchange for hugely discounted oil, or access to resources or whatever. The Chinese do not like Russia, nor would they ever actually ally with Russia. Russia will have to sell its oil someplace, and China will buy it for far below market value. China is taking care of China first and foremost. I know that everyone here in 'Murica hates China (for many good and bad reasons), but China absolutely would never come to Russia's aid in any military or economic way unless China is reaping a substantially lopsided benefit from the transaction (ie. buying Russian oil). 

Ironically, in 2013 China signed a treaty of sorts with Ukraine pledging to support Ukraine if it was ever threatened by nuclear attack. As China is a huge proponent of "living up to treaty commitments" it would be interesting to see what they would do if Putin unleases tactical nukes on Ukraine. 

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
3/12/22 9:04 p.m.
tuna55 said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

People joke about France in WWII but their reality was they basically lost a whole generation because the men who would have fathered them died in Belgian mud.  They do not have that problem today.

This is truth here

For decades French military units have been fighting various terrorists/insurgents/etc. in many of its former African colonial holdings (not that there's much reporting on that kind of stuff here in America, since we don't care about Africa in a geopolitical sense). The French military doesn't berkeley around, they go in with heavy firepower and top of the line equipment. 

02Pilot
02Pilot UberDork
3/12/22 9:07 p.m.
irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
3/12/22 9:32 p.m.
02Pilot said:

Anatol Lieven, Inside Putin’s circle — the real Russian elite, FT, 11Mar22

 

Good read, while my career focus has been largely on the far east, that goes along well with what my colleagues who study Russia have said over the years. 

stroker
stroker UberDork
3/12/22 9:57 p.m.

And, now we've got Iran lobbing ballistic missiles at the US Consulate in Irbil, Iraq... 

 

That tells me Vlad is unhappy.  We must be doing something right. 

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
3/12/22 10:04 p.m.
pheller said:

In reply to Javelin :

Pevchikh makes a good point: the trail of Russian money into the western worlds needs to end. They may say "I'm not an oligarch, I'm just related to one!" But if your using that money to live outside of the oppressive Russian economy and regime, you're part of the problem. 

5 or 6 years ago I was in Hawaii for a work trip and hiking around Honolulu one evening and noticed this huge yacht tied up at the downtown pier. It was the biggest thing in the harbor - bigger than the US Coast Guard high endurance cutter across the way.

One of my local friends said it was owned by a Russian Oligarch and it visited Hawaii a few times a year with the owner aboard, and he was pretty outspoken about how much he loved coming to Hawaii on the yacht. 

No photo description available.

Those are the USCG's 2nd largest ships in the background, for scale

No photo description available.

Anyhow, that yacht is the "A" which is owned by Andrey Melnichenko, and it (and his other yacht, which is a sailing yacht even larger) are currently trying to get out of the Med and find a safe harbor before they're seized....

I guess he won't be visiting his favorite place any time soon.....

 

 

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
3/12/22 10:11 p.m.
stroker said:

And, now we've got Iran lobbing ballistic missiles at the US Consulate in Irbil, Iraq... 

 

That tells me Vlad is unhappy.  We must be doing something right. 

would it surprise anyone if it was actually Vlad lobbing the missiles from Iran? Russia does love false-flag ops. 

It makes exactly zero sense for Iran to do so at the moment, with the near-term possibility of reduction of sanctions for them currently in the works.  The whole thing smells fishy, and the timing of it as a distraction from Ukraine even fishier.

America needs to keep its eyes on the ball. Iran isn't a threat to us in any tangible way, and isn't going to do anything significant. If these things fell near our consulate, I'd bet it was only because our consulate is near a Kurdish peshmerga base that may have been the target. 

daeman
daeman SuperDork
3/13/22 1:10 a.m.
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:
pheller said:

In reply to Javelin :

Pevchikh makes a good point: the trail of Russian money into the western worlds needs to end. They may say "I'm not an oligarch, I'm just related to one!" But if your using that money to live outside of the oppressive Russian economy and regime, you're part of the problem. 

5 or 6 years ago I was in Hawaii for a work trip and hiking around Honolulu one evening and noticed this huge yacht tied up at the downtown pier. It was the biggest thing in the harbor - bigger than the US Coast Guard high endurance cutter across the way.

One of my local friends said it was owned by a Russian Oligarch and it visited Hawaii a few times a year with the owner aboard, and he was pretty outspoken about how much he loved coming to Hawaii on the yacht. 

No photo description available.

Those are the USCG's 2nd largest ships in the background, for scale

No photo description available.

Anyhow, that yacht is the "A" which is owned by Andrey Melnichenko, and it (and his other yacht, which is a sailing yacht even larger) are currently trying to get out of the Med and find a safe harbor before they're seized....

I guess he won't be visiting his favorite place any time soon.....

 

 

Funny you mentioned  that boat.......

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/russian-billionaires-793m-yacht-seized-in-italy-over-links-to-russia/news-story/f82116a7fbb52bb163a200f7a2c9bf9a

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