History in the Making: Russian Invasion

US officials confirmed to CNN that Russia launched hypersonic missiles against Ukraine, the first known use of such missiles in combat. The US was able to track the launches in real time, the sources said

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-19-22/h_e258f4d62704c278417a897db16cac80

Which is interesting, considering there is absolutely no reason to use such a missile.  Obviously a "see, it works" demonstration.  Also a demonstration of what the previous video talked about, spending a large percentage of their defense budget on high-tech expensive weapons that are of almost no use in the conflict they themselves initiated!

I does remind me a bit of Hitlers obsession with "wonder" and high tech weapons weapons.  E.g. the V2 was amazing technology, but was of marginal use (especially considering the cost) unless you have a nuke you can strap to it (probably the wonder weapon that had the greatest potential, but was cut short by the allies).  The massive number of unguided rockets that the Russian made, probably would have been a better option.  The previous comparison of the high tech Tiger tank vs the 10 Russian T-34 tanks that could be made for the same effort also of course applies.

In reply to aircooled :

The West cannot get directly involved in actual fighting, though. That would play 100% into Putin's propaganda.  THEY have to attack a NATO interest first.

We (global we) are doing one hell of a lot more than, say, for Poland in WWII.

Are you referring to the German invasion of Poland in 1939, or the Russian?  

Don't forget the Russian invasion of Finland in 1939.

And yes, Russia has been a dick for a long time.

In reply to aircooled :

I have Finnish heritage, and we take great pride in holding back Russia while inflicting significant damage during the Winter war of 1939. In addition to the nastiness of the winter and the badassery of the Finns, the other element that hurt Russia was the fact that Stalin had purged so many of his top  military commanders. Promoting yes men to run a war isn't a good strategy. Some things never change. 

Some tidbits:

Officials in Voronezh are asking local retailers to donate food, drinks, and cigarettes to RosGuard troops now deployed in Ukraine. Requested not as a public show of support so much as basic logistical assistance for "performing combat tasks."

So... clearly the Russian logistics are what might be called crap.

- The Russians are starting to dig in around Kostomul airport.  This is not really something an rapidly attacking army will do.  Clearly they are expecting counter attacks.  I can pretty much guarantee NATO can tell them exactly where the tanks are dug in, and I suspect they have a way of getting that info to the Ukrainians

- The Russians have found Chlorine barrels or something in Ukraine.  So clearly the Ukrainians are planning on a chemical attack on Russians.   Uhm, yeah Put Put, we have seen that movie also, and the writing was terrible!

At this point, I think it would be nice for the West to tell Put Put EXACTLY what will happen if he does use chemical weapons, not some vague warnings about "harsh repercussions" that I suspect could be along the lines of sternly worded letter.... at least that is what Put Put will assume.

And what EXACTLY would those measures be?

aircooled said:

 

- The Russians have found Chlorine barrels or something in Ukraine.  So clearly the Ukrainians are planning on a chemical attack on Russians.   Uhm, yeah Put Put, we have seen that movie also, and the writing was terrible!

 

Probably around that pool they bombed where a bunch of civilians were taking shelter. 

Next, Russia is going to find "people with COVID" in Ukraine and claim Ukraine is developing a bioweapon..........

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

And what EXACTLY would those measures be?

Yes, exactly...   

...what I want to know also, and Put Put needs to know.

Lets put it this way: Threatening a harsh response, when the reaction turns out to less than harsh, you would have been much better off not threatening in the first place.  (Because it only encourages more action)

Threatening a harsh response when it truly is harsh, you would have much better off making that reaction very clear.  (Because you might have prevented the action)

At this point I can only guess Put Put assumes there is little more economic pressure that can be put on or that will mater, and NATO will not take any actual action, since that is what they have done so far, and historically (which of course historically even includes economic actions).

aircooled said:

 

US officials confirmed to CNN that Russia launched hypersonic missiles against Ukraine, the first known use of such missiles in combat. The US was able to track the launches in real time, the sources said

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-19-22/h_e258f4d62704c278417a897db16cac80

Which is interesting, considering there is absolutely no reason to use such a missile.  Obviously a "see, it works" demonstration.  Also a demonstration of what the previous video talked about, spending a large percentage of their defense budget on high-tech expensive weapons that are of almost no use in the conflict they themselves initiated!

I does remind me a bit of Hitlers obsession with "wonder" and high tech weapons weapons.  E.g. the V2 was amazing technology, but was of marginal use (especially considering the cost) unless you have a nuke you can strap to it (probably the wonder weapon that had the greatest potential, but was cut short by the allies).  The massive number of unguided rockets that the Russian made, probably would have been a better option.  The previous comparison of the high tech Tiger tank vs the 10 Russian T-34 tanks that could be made for the same effort also of course applies.

The Warzone has a piece about the use of this missile.  There is an interesting update towards the bottom where they detail that the videos released by the ministry of defense are highly suspect in relating to the alleged target.

This seems like a very GRM thing to do Donate your SUV to become a technical in Ukraine

The Ukrainians are doing an extraordinarily good job of shaping the narrative in global (free) media. This is a particularly entertaining example, clearly planned in advance and well-executed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/tdzmjj/open_top_bmw_6_series_with_a_nsv_127x108_heavy/

Machine gun mounted to the back of a BMW 6 Series in Ukraine.

I recall discussions about hypersonic flight for space research back in 1999-2000. I was a dual major Aerospace/Mechanical Engineer and took some advanced composite engineering courses at The University of Michigan and graduated in 1997. Some of the College of Engineering staff reached out to alumni for discussions about constructing a hypersonic test facility on campus and wanted our feedback. I understood it was to gage if it had any work related use versus just research/educational. I recall many comments from my fellow alumni stating they could not see any non-military usage to justify a University investing in research in that area. I thought the engine side would have been worthwhile and focused my comments to stress that. Mostly I didn't have a clue how they would fit something useful on campus. 

The concept of hypersonic weapons is, for some unknown reason, another level of scary for me. ICBMs are scary and deadly enough but something that can maneuver, difficult to track, and attempt to evade intercept just seems terrifying. 

I can see Russia using this weapon now purely to get good PR spin at home and to support social media warfare in the EU to stoke fear. 

If the US Space Force and Air Force were able to track them, good, but I am curious if the US or EU has any countermeasure for them. 

In reply to Advan046 :

Considering it's a 20-30 year timeframe after military tech was developed before it becomes common knowledge, odds are that we do have the tech to counter it. Whether it's tested and/or proven is an another question though. 

Advan046 said:

I recall discussions about hypersonic flight for space research back in 1999-2000. I was a dual major Aerospace/Mechanical Engineer and took some advanced composite engineering courses at The University of Michigan and graduated in 1997. Some of the College of Engineering staff reached out to alumni for discussions about constructing a hypersonic test facility on campus and wanted our feedback. I understood it was to gage if it had any work related use versus just research/educational. I recall many comments from my fellow alumni stating they could not see any non-military usage to justify a University investing in research in that area. I thought the engine side would have been worthwhile and focused my comments to stress that. Mostly I didn't have a clue how they would fit something useful on campus. 

The concept of hypersonic weapons is, for some unknown reason, another level of scary for me. ICBMs are scary and deadly enough but something that can maneuver, difficult to track, and attempt to evade intercept just seems terrifying. 

I can see Russia using this weapon now purely to get good PR spin at home and to support social media warfare in the EU to stoke fear. 

If the US Space Force and Air Force were able to track them, good, but I am curious if the US or EU has any countermeasure for them. 

I don't think the countermeasures for a typical ICBM are good enough that a hypersonic weapon will make any difference in reality. If Russia launches 4,500 ICBMs at targets in the US, and 60% or 20% hit, we're all still dead.

Writing your congressmen does work. It's not just a form letter:

I'm feeling especially bad for the people of Mariupol today.  I know if there's any chance of defeating Putin, Ukraine can't just start surrendering their territory, but it seems like the Russians are just going to flatten the whole city.

fastoldfart said:

I'd love to see Putin being told this news!

Three Russian cosmonauts wear colours of Ukrainian flag as they arrive on space station

The Russian team arrived aboard the International Space Station after launching from Kazakhstan and were wearing space suits of yellow and blue- the colours of Ukraine

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-three-russian-cosmonauts-wear-26505649

They're saying that these are the colors of the university the cosmonauts attended, whether that is just giving themselves plausible deniability, I suspect we won't know for a few more years

I see Saudi Aramco is going to increase production:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/21/energy/saudi-aramco-investment/index.html

eastsideTim said:

I'm feeling especially bad for the people of Mariupol today.  I know if there's any chance of defeating Putin, Ukraine can't just start surrendering their territory, but it seems like the Russians are just going to flatten the whole city.

I feel this. My wife was nearly in tears yesterday thinking about the regular people there. Lives are on the line and it's clear that Russia won't stop until they're all dead or the city is rubble.

tuna55 said:

eastsideTim said:

I'm feeling especially bad for the people of Mariupol today.  I know if there's any chance of defeating Putin, Ukraine can't just start surrendering their territory, but it seems like the Russians are just going to flatten the whole city.

I feel this. My wife was nearly in tears yesterday thinking about the regular people there. Lives are on the line and it's clear that Russia won't stop until they're all dead or the city is rubble.

And on top of that, if the reports that some of the people are being essentially abducted and sent to what sounds like, at best, indentured servitude, the humanitarian crisis is compounded yet again.

wae said:

tuna55 said:

eastsideTim said:

I'm feeling especially bad for the people of Mariupol today.  I know if there's any chance of defeating Putin, Ukraine can't just start surrendering their territory, but it seems like the Russians are just going to flatten the whole city.

I feel this. My wife was nearly in tears yesterday thinking about the regular people there. Lives are on the line and it's clear that Russia won't stop until they're all dead or the city is rubble.

And on top of that, if the reports that some of the people are being essentially abducted and sent to what sounds like, at best, indentured servitude, the humanitarian crisis is compounded yet again.

I didn't pour over the news as my wife was reading yesterday, but it sure sounded a lot like concentration camps.

tuna55 said:

Writing your congressmen does work. It's not just a form letter:

And they just turn it around to talk about themselves.

stuart in mn said:

tuna55 said:

Writing your congressmen does work. It's not just a form letter:

And they just turn it around to talk about themselves.

No need to get political. What tuna posted was informational only. His point was to make an effort to write to the people that have power to make changes about Ukraine, not to praise or bash a politician. 

Javelin said:

stuart in mn said:

tuna55 said:

Writing your congressmen does work. It's not just a form letter:

And they just turn it around to talk about themselves.

No need to get political. What tuna posted was informational only. His point was to make an effort to write to the people that have power to make changes about Ukraine, not to praise or bash a politician. 

Correct. Thanks for clarity. Please don't take more from it than a "writing your congressman (or congresswoman) is a good idea", not that my particular dude is of any significance. It was definitely not intended as a political statement.

tuna55 said:

Writing your congressmen does work. It's not just a form letter:

 

To be fair, the grandstanding and language of that, absolutely sounds like a form letter.