Yeah I don't see him addressing anything you wrote, it could just be a boilerplate letter sent in response to any messages that include "Ukraine" and "Putin"
Yeah I don't see him addressing anything you wrote, it could just be a boilerplate letter sent in response to any messages that include "Ukraine" and "Putin"
FatMongo said:z31maniac said:red_stapler said:93EXCivic said:There are neo-nazi aligned paramilitary groups in Ukraine. They are not the majority and as far I have seen they don't have any political say.
Right sector etc. mostly got routed from the government in their 2019 elections, but they still understand and use dual power and we may see a resurgence after this conflict ends.
You definitely see a lot of Azov battalion (the group with the SS logo) in the propaganda coming from Ukraine, they're no longer a paramilitary but a unit in the regular Ukraine army.
I will admit to not knowing nearly as much about the politics of that region or the conflict and look to this thread for information.
But to be clear, you're saying the official Ukraine army fighting against the Russians there is a known and tolerated neo-Nazi battalion?
Its truly a wonder how so many people are amazed to learn this. Just goes to show how corrupt, manipulated, and polluted the media environment (and product) is that is fed to the population as a whole.
I did some reading over the weekend, so correct me if I'm wrong.
This doesn't sound like there is a systemic, neo-Nazi following in the Ukrainian Army. It seems more like "Hey you guys have been fighting the Russians, let us give you help with our backing to continue to do so and more effectively."
More like an "All hands on deck" kind of thing vs an implicit backing of their ideology. I think that's a very important distinction.
In reply to z31maniac :
In 2014 Ukraine was very unprepared for The Crimea invasion or the separatist republics. They kinda got their asses handed to them. One of the few effective Ukrainian forces was the Patriot of Ukraine gang. About 900 strong, they became the Azov Battalion and were absorbed into the National Guard in an attempt to bring them under control. But they've continued to harass ethnic minorities, gays and what have you. It's naive to say that they are isolated. They were initially funded by oligarchs and have many sympathizers in the police and government.
Where does this leave us? In a familiar situation. The US has a long history of supporting bad actors because they were bad towards the other guy, not us, even though such groups often will turn on their "friends". Look at Saudi Arabia if you want a prominent example of that.
z31maniac said:To be fair, the grandstanding and language of that, absolutely sounds like a form letter.
Congresspersons have staffs of highly educated people, often working for a pittance. Chances are Chief of staff told some recent Ivy League graduate "Here's your bullet points. Blend it into a stirring response. Boss man can sign it and we'll keep it on file for all the others with similar feelings."
z31maniac said:FatMongo said:z31maniac said:red_stapler said:93EXCivic said:There are neo-nazi aligned paramilitary groups in Ukraine. They are not the majority and as far I have seen they don't have any political say.
Right sector etc. mostly got routed from the government in their 2019 elections, but they still understand and use dual power and we may see a resurgence after this conflict ends.
You definitely see a lot of Azov battalion (the group with the SS logo) in the propaganda coming from Ukraine, they're no longer a paramilitary but a unit in the regular Ukraine army.
I will admit to not knowing nearly as much about the politics of that region or the conflict and look to this thread for information.
But to be clear, you're saying the official Ukraine army fighting against the Russians there is a known and tolerated neo-Nazi battalion?
Its truly a wonder how so many people are amazed to learn this. Just goes to show how corrupt, manipulated, and polluted the media environment (and product) is that is fed to the population as a whole.
I did some reading over the weekend, so correct me if I'm wrong.
This doesn't sound like there is a systemic, neo-Nazi following in the Ukrainian Army. It seems more like "Hey you guys have been fighting the Russians, let us give you help with our backing to continue to do so and more effectively."
More like an "All hands on deck" kind of thing vs an implicit backing of their ideology. I think that's a very important distinction.
Right... kind of like the US and the USSR teamed up back when Nazism was a huge issue. That didn't make the US a collection of Socialist sympathizers or the Soviets a collective of capitists(*). It was merely "hey, on this issue, we kind of agree, let's work together for our common goal".
* very VERY oversimplified. But for sure, a lot of people back then preferred the Germans' bland governmental officiousness to the Russians' gangster tactics. This is not necessarily an ideological alignment.
To fall back on a realist truism, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Or, if you prefer, a quote attributed in some form to several US politicians over the years (most famously FDR, in reference to Anastasio Somoza: "He's a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch."
Y'all can call it a form letter if you want, but it says right at the top "Dear Tuna 55". If that doesn't say personal, IDK what does!
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
In a different font and everything!
I can't fault the guy (or intern, or whoever) for the shameless self promotion. I mean, I sort of can, but politics is half popularity contest and the other half is lies and BS, so it is to be expected.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to z31maniac :
In 2014 Ukraine was very unprepared for The Crimea invasion or the separatist republics. They kinda got their asses handed to them. One of the few effective Ukrainian forces was the Patriot of Ukraine gang. About 900 strong, they became the Azov Battalion and were absorbed into the National Guard in an attempt to bring them under control. But they've continued to harass ethnic minorities, gays and what have you. It's naive to say that they are isolated. They were initially funded by oligarchs and have many sympathizers in the police and government.
Where does this leave us? In a familiar situation. The US has a long history of supporting bad actors because they were bad towards the other guy, not us, even though such groups often will turn on their "friends". Look at Saudi Arabia if you want a prominent example of that.
Again, I don't claim to know everything after a few hours of research. But from what I've read, it seems like they weren't absorbed until this most recent conflict.
I'm happy to be wrong, because it means I'm learning.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Y'all can call it a form letter if you want, but it says right at the top "Dear Tuna 55". If that doesn't say personal, IDK what does!
I'm also impressed that he knew tuna's forum handle.
thatsnowinnebago said:AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Y'all can call it a form letter if you want, but it says right at the top "Dear Tuna 55". If that doesn't say personal, IDK what does!
I'm also impressed that he knew tuna's forum handle.
You mean that isn't his real name?
02Pilot said:To fall back on a realist truism, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
...
Maxim 29: The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less.
In reply to z31maniac :
Wikipedia:In September 2014, the Azov Battalion was expanded from a battalion to a regiment and enrolled into the National Guard of Ukraine.[31][33] At this time, the unit worked to de-politicize itself: its far-right leadership left and founded the National Corps political party,[42] which works with its associated activist organization, Azov Civil Corps. At about this time it started receiving increased supplies of heavy arms.[33] The Azov Battalion received funding from the Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine and other sources (believed to be Ukrainian oligarchs).[33] So while its volunteers were officially paid 6,000 hryvnia ($316) per month, they really received around 10,000 hryvnia ($526) per month.[33] The national socialist "Patriot of Ukraine" websites were shut down or put under restricted access.[33]
I'm learning as well.
Looks like Arnold's message got through:
Russian state media has reacted with fury to Arnold Schwarzenegger’s video message speaking out against the Ukraine invasion.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:z31maniac said:To be fair, the grandstanding and language of that, absolutely sounds like a form letter.
Congresspersons have staffs of highly educated people, often working for a pittance. Chances are Chief of staff told some recent Ivy League graduate "Here's your bullet points. Blend it into a stirring response. Boss man can sign it and we'll keep it on file for all the others with similar feelings."
In fairness, there are a lot of "form letters to your Congressperson" circulating on the internet, for whatever cause one wants to promote. People copypasta them on with almost zero effort. So why should a member of government waste their time responding to a form letter with anything but a form letter? Not saying tuna55's letter was a form letter, but with the sheer volume of mail they all receive, unless something really stands out to them, odds are pretty good they'll just respond via form letter.
02Pilot said:To fall back on a realist truism, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Or, if you prefer, a quote attributed in some form to several US politicians over the years (most famously FDR, in reference to Anastasio Somoza: "He's a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch."
That thinking gets us the mess in the middle east that we created, then tried to fix, then tried to fix, and then tried to fix. Each time making it worse than before. It also gets you overgeneralized polarization in every topic. I like politician A, he hates politician B, so everything politician B says is awful and everything politician A says is golden.
I use that phrase "enemy of my enemy..." with my kids during family worship every now and then to tell them why to not do that.
In reply to volvoclearinghouse :
Of course you're right. Even if it's a form letter (and it might be a 1 of 1 response. We don't know), at least they put some effort into a well-tuned response.
ok ok , enough with the letter. It was supposed to be evident that writing your representatives is a good thing to do.
Back to Ukraine.
Does anyone know how quickly the hardware we plan to ship (the new drones, the missile defense stuff) will get there? Is it military quick (months) or actual quick (hours)?
thatsnowinnebago said:AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Y'all can call it a form letter if you want, but it says right at the top "Dear Tuna 55". If that doesn't say personal, IDK what does!
I'm also impressed that he knew tuna's forum handle.
He probably follows me here. Doesn't everyone? It's like Hipster instagram. Probably.
Hungary Bill is probably the guy to ask but he may not be able to respond on classified matters. Back in my day it depended on the severity of the situation, but even back then (Mid-late 80's) IIRC Rapid Deployment Force heavy lift capability existed (Via C5 and C-141) so we could move battalion strength from point to point within 72 hours, so if the brass has determined it needs to be there, than actual quick is the correct answer.
What would a Stinger missile do to a ship? Or am I thinking of a Javelin?
Just wondering...
I wouldn't be thinking about Odessa at all.
You are thinking javelin. I would not think it (or other ATM's) would do much to a full ship (amphibious assault ship, destroyer etc). It would certainly penetrate, but mostly just a hole. Much smaller charge than an anti-ship missile.
The real power of a shaped charge (HEAT) round on a tank is the overpressure if it penetrates and the spalling if it doesn't. The overpressure is the simple explosion, made much worse by the enclosed space of a tank. The spalling is the inner part of the armor doing a bit of a metal blender routine to the interior. Since a ship is so large, you might hope for a few casualties with a hit.
Ships would probably stay out of range in general. The anti-missile systems (e.g.Phallanx equivalent) would probably pick one up (?)
A landing craft or amphibious tank. That should be fully effective of course.
Another tidbit: Sounds like they lost another General (I think it might have been an Admiral equivalent). Apparently it's not uncommon for higher ranking officers to be close to the action for the Russians. I think this has a lot more to do with lack of effective command and control than it does bravery.
aircooled said:You are thinking javelin. I would not think it (or other ATM's) would do much to a full ship (amphibious assault ship, destroyer etc). It would certainly penetrate, but mostly just a hole. Much smaller charge than an anti-ship missile.
It's also designed to attack from the top, because that's where the armor on a tank is the thinnest. I think anti-ship missiles usually attack from the side so that water comes in the hole that it left.
aircooled said:Another tidbit: Sounds like they lost another General (I think it might have been an Admiral equivalent). Apparently it's not uncommon for higher ranking officers to be close to the action for the Russians. I think this has a lot more to do with lack of effective command and control than it does bravery.
One of the cable news channels had their "expert" on to talk about that a bit. He said that the Russians don't really have NCOs - decisions are made at a command level and there's no room to interpret or have any initiative at the lower levels of the chain of command. The disruption to the communications compound that problem. He says that when something happens at the front of a column, for example, and things come to a stop, the folks in the front basically hunker down and await new orders. The generals, then, have to get out of their armored command vehicles that in the rear with the gear -- because the column is now a traffic jam -- and come to the front to issue new orders. And apparently the Ukranians have some really good snipers.
I think I heard that from Gen. Petraeus on CNN, but I don't recall exactly.
In reply to wae :
I read that after the "little green men" started showing up in 2014 (?) the Pentagon started a clandestine sniper training program with the Ukrainians. Sounds like $ well spent at this point and remarkably far-sighted for our military....
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