Home modifications and permits

I realize this probably is location dependent but I am hoping there is a general guideline of how far a homeowner can go before the local government has to be involved.

The missus and I have decided that for the next year home improvement is the major project. Roofers are coming in the spring to do a total teardown and replacement with improved ventilation and removal of the original kitchen chimney.  I have other ideas as well, but how far can I go without having to have an architect and an engineer and the legendarily slow city sucking cash out of the project? Can I have a toilet drain line moved 18"? Can I have a new one run with the necessary supply  and vent lines to make a 2nd story half bath?

I don't plan on removing or moving walls, Hiring a plumber and an electrician are on the to do list.

The gigantic dormers on both sides of the roof are not cut into the interior essentially making them a pair  20'X20' uninsulated storage spaces with tiny access doors. I would love to punch them out, insulate and drywall and install windows.  I fear adding an additional almost 800 sq/ft of interior space might be questioned down the road.

I am planning on removing the 1940's built in linen cupboard in the hallway freeing up the 4'X4' awkward box in the too small downstairs bath. That way I could shift the toilet away from the door to open it up in there.

Once the kitchen chimney is removed there is a huge 10'X5' upstairs closet  that would make a great half bath. Some finishing, a pedestal sink, a toilet and some electrical there. I am guessing that if any of these ideas required a permit it would be this. 

So how far can the average guy go?

Part of your question is easy. Part is impossible. Part is a general guess. 

Easy- For ALL work that you hire a contractor or subcontractor, make sure THEY get the appropriate permits. It’s their job, not yours. If you do it, you become the responsible party. 

Impossible- All permitting requirement should vary by locality. There is nothing in the IBC saying WHEN permits are required. It’s a local decision. Some places require them for everything, some have a dollar amount, some never require them. Check with your local authorities (ONLY if you are doing the work. Don’t do it for a contractor)

General, adding 800 SF to your useable space, or adding an extra 1/2 bath will almost certainly require permits in most localities. They want to be able to tax you for it. 

Hope that helps!

+1 on if you hire contractors make them get permits. 

I tend to lean toward getting more permits than not enough. Permits are not there to slow you down or prevent you from making changes, even though it can feel like that. Permits are ideally there to help make sure you don't get ripped off by shady contractors leaving your job only half done or done incorrectly/unsafely.

Rule of thumb, if it changes the footprint of the house (or the birds eye view), you definitely need a permit. Also, if the work will attract attention (dumpster out front) you probably need it. If it changes the house (# of beds or baths) you’ll probably need it. 

Per city rules, I should have had one to swap out a dead hot water heater... But no.

Maybe we should clarify...

Are you asking when is a permit required?  Or what can you get away with?

Those are different questions. A little like asking “When am I gonna get caught if I don’t pay my taxes?”

SVreX said:

Maybe we should clarify...

Are you asking when is a permit required?  Or what can you get away with?

Those are different questions. A little like asking “When am I gonna get caught if I don’t pay my taxes?”

Or, it could be “will I get caught if i misrepresent something on my taxes?” Either could be at play here. 

Ranger50 said:

Per city rules, I should have had one to swap out a dead hot water heater... But no.

I would disagree with this approach, or at least with recommending it. 

As Robbie noted, a permit is to help you. 

A water heater seems pretty straight forward. But if you are not familiar with the proper ways to install a pressure relief valve, or how to run drain lines, or how to do the wiring properly someone could get seriously hurt. I’ve seen water heaters over pressurize and blow themselves through the roof of a house like a missile. 

A homeowner is allowed to work on their own house. Paying for a permit (very nominal cost) is just a little insurance- the inspector is a pro, who can advise you if you’ve made any errors. 

The cost of NOT getting a permit can be large, including potential fines, or making all the new work be uninstalled and removed. It’s often much easier to get the permit. 

Plus, seller’s disclosure statements often require disclosing at the time of sale if any work that requires a permit was completed without a permit.  Failure to disclose it could be fraud. Water heaters (and other products) are dated, and often checked by home inspectors. If a brand new water heater was in place with no permit and no disclosure, it could look bad. 

Don't get me wrong. I do stuff on my own house without a permit. But I know the consequences, and I don’t recommend other people do it.  Those are your own decisions.

Permits vary wildly by locale, its sort of like asking what the 0-60 time of a car is....itll be vastly different.. For example the city im living in now has permits for everything including home alarm systems and fences, but the county i lived in before has had times where you dont even need a building permit....for anything

The inspector should should be a pro. Not all of them are. 

Antihero said:

Permits vary wildly by locale, its sort of like asking what the 0-60 time of a car is....itll be vastly different.. For example the city im living in now has permits for everything including home alarm systems and fences, but the county i lived in before has had times where you dont even need a building permit....for anything

This is my current situation and why my reply above. Current county is a literal free for all. City I moved out of was permit hell and slllloooooooooowwwwww.

You need a permit. 

My concern wasn't trying to eschew responsibility or be shady, more that our new shop at work was held up for over 5 months due to the slow permitting and inspection process with the local officials.  I didnt want the same problems at my house.

Ask.

Eugene, OR building codes.

Generally changing the footprint or roof line requires a permit OR like when I built my garage, if it's over $10k or XX sq.ft. you need a permit and stamped prints.  If you do the work, think about hiring a contractor as an advisor; he gets the permits and checks on your work for safety and proper procedure.  $100/day is still cheaper than doing it twice.

Pictures please.

Dan

Ranger50 said:

Per city rules, I should have had one to swap out a dead hot water heater... But no.

city I grew up in.. you needed a permit to paint.. ANYTHING. inside, outside, trim.. that was back before they changed the government to a more representative Mayor/council. Before it was just a mayor

Jumper K Balls said:

My concern wasn't trying to eschew responsibility or be shady, more that our new shop at work was held up for over 5 months due to the slow permitting and inspection process with the local officials.  I didnt want the same problems at my house

Sounds like the last town I lived in. On a friday, the electrical meter on the side of the house blew up. Landlord got it replaced that saturday.. then we had to wait a WEEK for the inspector to come out and make sure it was ok before they could turn the power on. Really glad it was summer and not winter. I really would have thought something like that would have gotten done quicker as it was more of an emergancy

Plumbing permits can cause some downstream issues too.  A friend added to his 50's vintage home, and had to pull a new drain line in from the street, add a backflow valve, and otherwise update to modern spec when he added a bathroom in the addition.

Im not sure if that's standard everywhere, but it might be worth checking.

mad_machine said:

Ranger50 said:

Per city rules, I should have had one to swap out a dead hot water heater... But no.

city I grew up in.. you needed a permit to paint.. ANYTHING. inside, outside, trim.. that was back before they changed the government to a more representative Mayor/council. Before it was just a mayor

 

 

Ours are generally reasonable, but there was one thing that you needed a permit for that was absolutely ridiculous. I can't remember what it was specifically now, but I think it may have been something as silly as replacing a sump pump or washing machine. Maybe it was for the initial install, but I remember reading it and thinking it would never happen.

Typically around here (New England) if you aren't doing structural changes the permitting usually only takes a couple of days, electrical, plumbing, HVAC. Significant structural alterations will likely need to be reviewed and maybe by multiple offices/departments, these are the ones that can take some time. If you are hiring a contractor, one of your first questions should be what permits will you need and how long the turn around time usually is. if it is a long lead time start the permitting process well before you want the project to begin. So if you want to start work in April start the permit process in February. If you can, call or stop by city/town hall and give a brief synopsis of what you want to do without telling them where you live. You could say you are looking at buying a house that needs the work you want to do and trying to see what is needed. 

Permit the projects that involve plumbing, gas and/or electrical. Your dormer project sounds like the only one that might be a gray area - unless you are adding lots of electrical circuits and you're not comfortable with DIY. Like others have said - assuming you live somewhere with moderately helpful/fair/reasonable governments - you will come out ahead. Corruption, incompetent inspectors and other things are of course a different matter.