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bearmtnmartin
bearmtnmartin GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
10/18/19 10:00 a.m.

I don't think we have talked about this, but perhaps I missed something. The original point of the protests was the extradition law, and the protesters won pretty definitively. But the protests have not stopped. I thought initially the police behaved quite well, given that they are a -well, communist police force. But as protests continued and protester behavior worsened, so did police behavior. Now neither side is without blame. I'm not sure what the protests are about anymore, and where they will end. Hong Kong will never be a western democracy again. It's part of China for better or worse. China has showed some restraint so far, but eventually it will be a face saving thing for Xi and he will roll in there with troops and shut the whole thing down. 

Thoughts? Please keep it civil.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
10/18/19 10:08 a.m.

I mean, its not democrat-republican necessarily, but it strikes me as flounder territory...

 

My impression is they are resisting a march towards repression under Chinese rule under the Chinese system as opposed to the special circumstance they have now (or had?, well you get the drift).

 

They want to keep their freedoms that were set to be phased out, China tried to do things to speed the process, they are still fighting the process itself.

 

What else can they do? they are doing just about anything possible.  

 

Right or wrong?  I'll risk the flounder and say that if their people overwhelmingly dont want it, they have a fundamental human right to resist it, at least its through protests and hasnt been more violent than it has been, they arent really left with a whole lot of options. 

 

 

Should we (the US) get involved?  Yeah, answering that would be floundering...

 

 

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/18/19 10:11 a.m.

Being there this summer, I think that much of HK wants to be seperate again. They don't like the oversight but enjoy the money Beijing has pumped into their economy and infrastructure. It's a double edged sword. My personal feelings are the protestors got a taste of victory and want to see how far they can push it. 

Interesting to me was how woefully equipped the standard street cops were. Most did not appear to have vests (This is from beginning of July, I'm sure they have been beefed up a little), carried a 6" .38spl S&W (or knockoff) and a single speed loader, a can of mace/pepper spray and handcuffs. What was more impressive to me was the lack of need of them most of the time. In all our travels, Hong Kong was one of the friendliest and safest feeling cities I have ever been to. It took us two days to figure out the MTR and bus schedules and we were off. 

bearmtnmartin
bearmtnmartin GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
10/18/19 10:12 a.m.

Let's keep other countries out of it. This would be a friendly China Hong Kong discussion. Surely we can talk about that without it all going in the ban dumpster.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/18/19 10:16 a.m.

As for Xi "rolling in troops and shutting it down", that will be a strategic nightmare. You're talking a densely populated city of almost 8 million people. Narrow, hilly streets etc. It is quite literally the worst possible scenario for an overtaking force. IT would make taking Baghdad and all of Afghanistan look like Sunday brunch with the Queen. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/18/19 10:24 a.m.

I think the protestors are realizing the eventuality of their situation (as you noted) and trying to go for it all.  I am sure they realize if they accept the gains they have now, the attention will be lost, and the Chinese government will just roll over them, figuratively, and maybe literally (see Tienanmen square).

Sadly, they really don't have much of a chance.  It is (now) Chinese territory, and they certainly do as they please.  I suspect their only real hope is to use the financial / trading might of the city to either leverage a deal, or move it's economics somewhere else (not sure if that is even possible). The only thing really saving them at this point is the rather open media environment.  If the Chinese figure out how to shut that down... oh boy.

You HAVE to respect the resolve involved though, this is certainly no slacktavism. 

It is highlighting some of the "deal with the devil" economic aspects involving China though, which is probably not all that bad of a thing to highlight. 

bearmtnmartin
bearmtnmartin GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
10/18/19 10:27 a.m.

I wonder if Carrie Lam were to resign things would ease up? I am surprised she has not been removed yet. For some reason I think Xi has decreed that she stay on. 

914Driver
914Driver MegaDork
10/18/19 10:34 a.m.

Margie said:

"You will refrain from politics, religion, or droning on long after the rest of the party has walked away from a conversation..."

I almost got banished from a board for asking about a news caster, no politics!  And that rule was open to creative interpretation by hard left Mods.  I know we have a cleaner, more polite sand box than most, but why go looking?

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
10/18/19 10:36 a.m.
Apexcarver said:

I mean, its not democrat-republican necessarily, but it strikes me as flounder territory...

 

My impression is they are resisting a march towards repression under Chinese rule under the Chinese system as opposed to the special circumstance they have now (or had?, well you get the drift).

 

They want to keep their freedoms that were set to be phased out, China tried to do things to speed the process, they are still fighting the process itself.

 

What else can they do? they are doing just about anything possible.  

 

Right or wrong?  I'll risk the flounder and say that if their people overwhelmingly dont want it, they have a fundamental human right to resist it, at least its through protests and hasnt been more violent than it has been, they arent really left with a whole lot of options. 

 

 

Should we (the US) get involved?  Yeah, answering that would be floundering...

 

 

China signed a treaty with the UK to transfer HK to Chinese rule with the explicit expectation that HK would remain as it was- free elections, separate government, etc.  As I saw it, the extradition law was the final straw for the people who did expect China to actually agree to the terms they signed with the UK.  Which is why the change in the protests from the proposal to fulfilling all of the treaty.  

I don't really think that the vast majority of protesters have gotten bad- some may have, sure.  But I also see a major need for China to stop this, so they will do anything to make protesters look like terrorists.

Given our trade with China and HK, as well as Tiwan, it's virtually impossible for us to not be part of it.  That being said, I really don't know how to react, and because of that, I can't really find a fault in our reaction.....  

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
10/18/19 10:45 a.m.

A lot of challenges face Pro-Indepdence Protesters of Hong Kong:

1) No leader, so if HK is made independent, who runs it? PRC is certainly not going to put it up for a vote, then other local governments/cities will want the same. 

2) China is pretty obviously not going to let other states dictate its internal policy, so sanctions will be useless. PRC will also likely not engage protesters violently because it doesn't want to give the west any reasons to intervene. 

3) Lets say the protestors continue to protest for years. Businesses and residents start to leave HK. Maybe PRC lets protestors and dissenters leave too. Its a huge city and an economic powerhouse, life will go on for those not involved, CCP included. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
10/18/19 11:17 a.m.

So the British ended their lease of HK in 97, and they did so with an explicit agreement than China would honor certain things, and they are not. I'd be mad, too. I'm not sure China will let them go, but it would be awfully civil of them to recognize this and probably give them much needed goodwill in the global theater.

 

That opinion is worth what you paid for it.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/18/19 11:36 a.m.

They got the extradition law, now are pushing for universal sufferage and many other things. 

Good for them for being willing to stand up for what they believe in............vs just complaining about it on the interwebz.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/18/19 11:45 a.m.

Isn't there a phase out plan for the non-China rights they have?  E.g. whatever special treatment they have now will eventually disappear.

frenchyd
frenchyd UberDork
10/18/19 11:53 a.m.

In reply to aircooled :

There is one other outcome.  China could see that authoritarian governments do not have the positive outcome of an honest democracy.  
 

As horrible and messy as democracy is, it's still better than the alternative.  There are plenty of examples where the best of Communism and the best of democracy combine to produce excellent results for their  citizens.   In a non violent way  

Handled right, it can be done in a way that is non threatening to the regime in China.  Maybe set something up where Hong Kong puts its own selected and elected representative on the board to replace the Chinese chairman at his retirement.  
 

Add in the inducement of Taiwan  doing the same thing and it's possible.  

 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/18/19 12:17 p.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to aircooled :

There is one other outcome.  China could see that authoritarian governments do not have the positive outcome of an honest democracy.  
 

As horrible and messy as democracy is, it's still better than the alternative.  There are plenty of examples where the best of Communism and the best of democracy combine to produce excellent results for their  citizens.   In a non violent way  

Handled right, it can be done in a way that is non threatening to the regime in China.  Maybe set something up where Hong Kong puts its own selected and elected representative on the board to replace the Chinese chairman at his retirement.  
 

Add in the inducement of Taiwan  doing the same thing and it's possible.  

 

I don't think the 2nd largest economy on the planet will see it that way.

The US is not a democracy, it's a constitutional republic. Which is an indirect form of democracy, but not pure "majority rules" democracy. 

 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/18/19 1:15 p.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to aircooled :

There is one other outcome.  China could see that authoritarian governments do not have the positive outcome of an honest democracy.  
 

As horrible and messy as democracy is, it's still better than the alternative.  There are plenty of examples where the best of Communism and the best of democracy combine to produce excellent results for their  citizens.   In a non violent way  

Handled right, it can be done in a way that is non threatening to the regime in China.  Maybe set something up where Hong Kong puts its own selected and elected representative on the board to replace the Chinese chairman at his retirement.  
 

Add in the inducement of Taiwan  doing the same thing and it's possible.  

 

There might be some potential there.  Effectively returning it to what it was.  There likely needs to be something where the Chinese "save face" in the situation of course.  Of course, they can just make up some story to tell their citizens that makes them look glorious, they do have complete control of that.

BTW - Bringing up Taiwan as a good example is NOT a good way to persuade China surprise

02Pilot
02Pilot SuperDork
10/18/19 1:25 p.m.

I’ve done a fair bit of analysis of this situation, so here’s my two cents.

The gap between the two sides here is considerable, and unlikely to be bridged. The PRC holds virtually all of the cards and could resolve it by leverage. HK being a series of islands and a peninsula that only shares a common border with the mainland, it is easily cut off; it cannot sustain itself. Even this, to say nothing of the use of hard force, would result in repercussions globally that the PRC would prefer to avoid. They are very cognizant of appearances and have worked to paint the protesters as the guilty party throughout the disturbances.

The PRC does not need HK nearly as much as it did in the past. The growth of the mainland economy in recent decades has shrunk the percentage that HK contributes to GDP. This means that the CCP leadership can afford to let HK bear the brunt of whatever happens without suffering much themselves, provided they don’t act rashly and draw sanctions from the West. A source close to Xi (as quoted in the Economist) suggests that CCP policy is “no bloodshed, no compromises” - this points to an attritional strategy, one which may take a while to resolve.

The upheaval has already cost HK considerably. Tourism is down close to 40%, and given that 80% of its tourism comes from the mainland, this will only continue to decline while the demonstrations continue. A recent Goldman Sachs estimate suggests that USD 4bn has already moved out of HK to Singapore. How long HK’s economy can remain above the threshold of acceptability for a majority of its citizens is an open question.

The 1997 handover was supposed to lead to a fifty year period of “one country, two systems,” after which presumably HK would be fully incorporated into the PRC. While it is certainly arguable that China has not upheld its end of the bargain, no one who was paying attention (including Chris Patten, the last governor of HK when it was a UK dependency) really expected them to. It was an unenforceable agreement from day one in any case.

As far as possible outcomes, the protesters have few choices, and all of them are bad. China wants this over, but they also realize that the costs of ending it quickly are potentially very high. Both sides are playing for time, but the protesters are ill-equipped to do so; their only real tool is global public opinion, and maintaining the media spotlight is not easy. Even if they escalate their activities, chances are the PRC will stand off and wait rather than respond to the provocation, knowing that a Pyrrhic victory is about all they can hope to achieve in the streets. The one thing China most assuredly will not do is allow anything that looks like independence, or even backsliding away from the One-China Principle that underlies their policies.

frenchyd
frenchyd UberDork
10/18/19 1:42 p.m.
aircooled said:
frenchyd said:

In reply to aircooled :

There is one other outcome.  China could see that authoritarian governments do not have the positive outcome of an honest democracy.  
 

As horrible and messy as democracy is, it's still better than the alternative.  There are plenty of examples where the best of Communism and the best of democracy combine to produce excellent results for their  citizens.   In a non violent way  

Handled right, it can be done in a way that is non threatening to the regime in China.  Maybe set something up where Hong Kong puts its own selected and elected representative on the board to replace the Chinese chairman at his retirement.  
 

Add in the inducement of Taiwan  doing the same thing and it's possible.  

 

There might be some potential there.  Effectively returning it to what it was.  There likely needs to be something where the Chinese "save face" in the situation of course.  Of course, they can just make up some story to tell their citizens that makes them look glorious, they do have complete control of that.

BTW - Bringing up Taiwan as a good example is NOT a good way to persuade China surprise

We disagree, if you think China doesn't want Taiwan back in its fold you are mistaken. But it cannot take it by force without Global repercussions.  
 Conversely Taiwan knows its real future is with China but it would need to be under terms they felt assured their freedoms would be respected. 
 Putting elected representatives in charge would assure them of that.  
 

China already has accepted non communist party members in some positions of authority.  The growth of that could be what satisfies all parties as well as the global community. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/18/19 2:43 p.m.
frenchyd said:

We disagree, if you think China doesn't want Taiwan back in its fold you are mistaken. But it cannot take it by force without Global repercussions.  
 Conversely Taiwan knows its real future is with China but it would need to be under terms they felt assured their freedoms would be respected. 
 Putting elected representatives in charge would assure them of that.  
 

China already has accepted non communist party members in some positions of authority.  The growth of that could be what satisfies all parties as well as the global community. 

Ummm, no one thinks that China doesn't want Taiwan, and it's 21st largest economy in the world back under their control. China has wanted Taiwan back under their control for decades. No one even said that wasn't the case. I feel like you willfully misinterpret things.  

Rons
Rons GRM+ Memberand Reader
10/18/19 3:09 p.m.

In reply to bearmtnmartin :

My thought is will Canada be forced into repatriating astronauts, evacuating citizens from a territory that's becoming a war zone.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/18/19 3:16 p.m.
aircooled said:

You HAVE to respect the resolve involved though, this is certainly no slacktavism. 

It is highlighting some of the "deal with the devil" economic aspects involving China though, which is probably not all that bad of a thing to highlight. 

Agreed. Protesting there and getting locked up sure isn't the same as protesting in down town San Francisco. The consequences can be much more severe. And the spotlight on China and it's economic restrictions is a good thing IMO which is another whole ballgame. I will defer to Matt and Trey for their spot on insight into that part. 

bearmtnmartin
bearmtnmartin GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
10/18/19 3:23 p.m.

In reply to Rons :

I did not know we had astronauts in Hong kong

bearmtnmartin
bearmtnmartin GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
10/18/19 3:30 p.m.

In reply to 02Pilot :

When China stopped canola imports from Canada to prove a political point, I thought about how that must have affected thousands of Chinese businesses that have come to depend on a steady supply. It's not like China could just go out and quickly replace millions of bushels of a seasonal crop immediately. But the government didn't care a whit about either the economic impact or the plight of their citizens. They economy is massive and controlled by a single person. So whatever China decides to do with Hong Kong, economic considerations will I think be far down the list for Xi. 

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/18/19 3:35 p.m.

In reply to bearmtnmartin :

I think this is the crux of the issue with tryingto figure out what China will/won't do. They have more people than they know what to do with and do not care about any of them. They have shown they do not hold an individuals rights with any regard and they will do whatever their leader tells them to do. We, being a western society, have no understanding or comprehension of that mindset and our ideas of what they "must do" and "should do" may not even be close. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/18/19 4:08 p.m.
frenchyd said:
 

We disagree, if you think China doesn't want Taiwan back in its fold you are mistaken. But it cannot take it by force without Global repercussions....

I think we miscommunicated.  It sounded like you were referencing Taiwan as some sort of example of how HK could be handled.  As you seem to be aware, mentioning Taiwan in any kind of positive way to the Chinese is likely to get you in trouble.

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