How do I help my alcoholic friend

Steve_Jones said:

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

To all the folks who say "you can't help someone who doesn't want to help themselves", I empathize, but I also challenge. 

OK, I will re phrase it.  You can not help someone that does not think they have a problem. Telling them they have a problem will only get you frustrated when they don't see it. I have an alcoholic Brother that is homeless, he does not see that as an issue,  he will tell you with a straight face " maybe I like being a bum".

So, he doesn't have a mental health challenge or he should be given up on?

I understand people get very hard to help. Perhaps impossible. But if we start by saying "can't" then it most certainly is impossible to help.

While it is at a very different level, I am reminded of my relationship with my children right now. Many of our interactions are me trying to help them even though they don't want to help themselves. "do your homework" "brush your teeth" etc. HOPEFULLY it's having some sort of impact in teaching them to want to help themselves. My children could tell me "maybe I like my teeth not brushed", but if I took that at face value and stopped asking them to brush, I'd probably be doing them a disservice.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

No one said give up on him, but if he's ok with being homeless, I need to be ok with him being homeless. I can't change his mindset, I can only help once he decides it's an issue.

Right now your child is under your roof, and young. If your child decides at 20 years old they no longer want to brush their teeth, are you going to hold them down and brush them?

You can tell from the replies in this thread who has actually been through it and those that haven't. 

carbidetooth said:

So you know, I'm sober (both drugs and alcohol) for 32 years and gratefully so. There was a time when I couldn't imagine my life without. Now, the opposite is true.

This I can tell you for sure. The desire to change needs to originate from within. I have friends with consumption issues and the best I can muster is to remind them a better person resides within. Others can help with uncovering and encouraging of that person, but it's in large part up to an individual to make the decision to modify behavior.

Deep down I knew I had to change, but it took me at least 5 years to embrace recovery. There are many phrases and sayings around 12 step programs and recovery. I'll repeat one here that, in retrospect, is particularly relevant  to me.  " Nothing changes in sobriety...everything does".

FWIW, I honestly believe, at 68, I'm the happiest I've ever been.

That's it. You nailed it.

Had saw this thread earlier and was reminded when scrolling reddit when this popped up, https://www.mentalhelp.net/12-step-support/historical-conflict/continued/

In reply to carbidetooth :

Good for you - booze and drugs was everything to all my family/friends/life. Shoot, I grew up in the 70's - daily smoking weed was the norm.

I'm one that put my faith in the Lord and gave it all up - it's been 30+ years now.  It might be worth mentioning to your friend. 

In reply to lownslow :

There is a new medical group that is looking to open up multiple locations and use the Schick Shadal methodology. My father in law was their chief medical officer for years and was recently approached in helping out this new group getting things going again. So there may be more options in the future, but looks like it's still west coast focused for locations.

johndej said:

Had saw this thread earlier and was reminded when scrolling reddit when this popped up, https://www.mentalhelp.net/12-step-support/historical-conflict/continued/

I read that article, and it didn't feel particularly scientific.  It felt like an advertisement for the mental health profession.  Last I checked, attendance at AA meetings is free?

Just to update this a little bit, I had a long chat with his wife yesterday. She filled in some of the details for me. What blew me away is the volume he drinks and how long he has been drinking it. When he comes home from work, he picks up a 750 ml bottle of red wine and liter bottle of rum. He fills a beer glass with red wine and drains it. It's like he's dying of thirst she said. Then he puts the remaining wine in the beer glass and drinks it more slowly. Over the rest of the evening he finishes off the liter of rum. On weekends he drinks steadily for 2 days, and when he runs out he drives his car to go and buy more. She has called the police to try and have him arrested but they have not for some reason caught him yet. She bought a breathalyzer and says his operating blood alcohol level is never below 0.12.

Having said all that, I put my coach in touch with him because he is a very low-key and easy to talk to guy, and my friend called me back this morning to say he got the message and intended to visit him next week. He also said that he intended to stay busier to give himself less time to drink and would like some help with that, so as best as I can I plan to do that. Baby steps, but doesn't look like he can drink more that he is, and maybe he's reached a point where he knows he needs to fix things.

I can't imagine the money this dude wasted to try and ruin his liver.

On a brighter note my alcoholic friends (husband and wife) have taken to exercising with a similar amount of enthusiasm and it's done wonders for them. 

It's amazing all the energy heavy drinkers put into getting booze and not look too suspicious going to the same place.  

I worked with a guy drinking a 12 pack every night and he strategically stopped at a different store every night as to not look too crazy.  Imagine the freedom when you give it all up.  

In reply to bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) :

He's got to be spending a small fortune to drink like that, even at rot gut prices he's into $200-250 weekly. I imagine that has to have an additional negative effect on his family. I have no first hand experience with dealing with an alcoholic, but have worked with a couple of folks who were recovering. Both told me that they didn't respond until they decided they had hit rock bottom, then they both went to AA and were alcohol free when I knew them. It took an attitude change. If I referred to either of them as "a recovered alcoholic" I would be corrected...."I am an alcoholic, just haven't had a drink in XX years". Good luck with your friend, I hope he sees the light .

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) said:

Just to update this a little bit, I had a long chat with his wife yesterday. She filled in some of the details for me. What blew me away is the volume he drinks and how long he has been drinking it. When he comes home from work, he picks up a 750 ml bottle of red wine and liter bottle of rum. He fills a beer glass with red wine and drains it. It's like he's dying of thirst she said. Then he puts the remaining wine in the beer glass and drinks it more slowly. Over the rest of the evening he finishes off the liter of rum. On weekends he drinks steadily for 2 days, and when he runs out he drives his 2022 Silverado to go and buy more. She has called the police to try and have him arrested but they have not for some reason caught him yet. She bought a breathalyzer and says his operating blood alcohol level is never below 0.12.

Having said all that, I put my CrossFit coach in touch with him because he is a very low-key and easy to talk to guy, and my friend called me back this morning to say he got the message and intended to visit him next week. He also said that he intended to stay busier to give himself less time to drink and would like some help with that, so as best as I can I plan to do that. Baby steps, but doesn't look like he can drink more that he is, and maybe he's reached a point where he knows he needs to fix things.

He needs medical help. 

The DTs coming down from that kind of use can literally kill you. 

EDIT: for those unfamiliar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens

This! ^

NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) said:

This! ^

My sister had throat cancer surgery and mentioned she was an average drinker to the medical people (she wasn't).  After surgery she struggled so much with the DT's she was put into a medical coma to get her through.

Why lie and deny the issue to them? Not sure but it was all part of her lifestyle.  

When someone drinks as much as the OP's friend, I don't think they realize the danger of stopping cold turkey. Your brain goes into hyper drive among other things. He'll need supervised care to stop. I'd say most likely Ativan will be involved.

It seems like your friend is at least willing to consider stopping his behavior, which is a good sign. It's hard to admit you have a problem, but that really is the first step in recovery. 

I have a situation with a family member that refuses to admit they have a problem. They have been drinking for decades heavily and regularly, and it's a miracle they are alive, frankly. We would regularly find empty bottles of cheap vodka stuffed under their bed, and they refuse to admit there's a problem. We tried interventions, cutting off access to things, but the same thing happens: they claim they have stopped, but they keep going until we catch them again. They are older now, and refuse to get medical attention for other issues, and I'm assuming that's because the doctors will find out about their abuse of alcohol. 

It's infuriating at times, and we all want to help, but they have to want to help themselves first. Good on you and his wife for getting him to that step, at least. 

Bearmtnmartin, all the lectures and explanations and such didn't mean a damn thing to me, I was going forward with my addiction.  At best, I'd play you for exploitation.

Sadly, most of us will die or be destroyed from our addiction.  And there isn't really anything you can do.  Sure, you could lock me up, and force me to dry out as a result.  Whoopie.  Once released, I was right back at it again.  

Why do some of us make it?  I don't know.  I can tell you that my story of recovery is as much a mystery to me as it is to those who watched it.  I did it all wrong and backwards, but almost accidentally, I came to realize I'd made my goal, I was finally an alcoholic.  Later on I realized I was also a drug addict.  

AA is very much spiritual.  It's structural foundations are from the Oxford Group, which was a christian group.  And for many an active alcoholic, this is a great excuse to avoid it and keep on drinking.  AA and Alateen is where I gradually recovered from it.

Be a friend, draw a line in the sand to protect yourself.  Hardest of all, be willing to have to watch him die or be destroyed from alcoholism.  It's what happens to most.  

Equally, be willing to take him to a meeting.  Go with him to an open meeting if he wants.  But don't take him to a liquor store or otherwise enable him.  

If you've an hour, I'd suggest listing to this old video on alcoholism, Father Martin's Chalk Talk. It's perhaps the best ever done:

https://youtu.be/t7T5stQQFQg?si=1imGirhNPswC0APy

To those who bristled at the word "Father", get your hackle down, Father Martin is an alcoholic himself.  

I've told this story many times to those that would listen. It was an aha! moment in my recovery and may be some help to others.

I suspect most everyone who knew me would say I was honest. Fair and straight forward in how I dealt with the world. Certainly not a "flake-y addict". I held jobs, kept promises and played by most of the rules. I took pride in my integrity. 

 A few years into recovery this thought came down on me like a ton of bricks. There was this one person whom I had continuously and consistently lied to and was just now coming to terms with it. This was a person who I had lived with my entire life and I thought pretty highly of. That person was me. I had somehow integrated myself into my own world and it was revelatory.  I know that sounds slippery and perhaps even silly, but as sure as my heart beats now, it was an epiphany to me then. Felt like I completed a circle and was free to embrace all the world has graced me with head on with head up.

Don't misread what I'm saying...plenty of heartache and hardship has passed under my bridge, but the wherewithal to recognize that I no longer had anything to hide from the world was a benchmark in my life.

I think it's important to remember that addiction seems like it's about substance abuse, but at the core it is about the "why" and not the "what" or even "who". Looked at in this way, all sorts of addiction comes into a new light. Sex, food, alcohol, shopping, etc. all have this common element. Because of my way of thinking, I recognize my propensity to dive in and overdo, but can usually stop short of practicing damaging addictive behavior. It's my life and while it may seem like I'm hawking something or trying to convince people, it is indeed what works for me. People have to honestly find what works for them.

I applaud your friend's efforts and truly hope he finds peace in his journey. In fact, I wish that for everyone. Yeah, yeah, that sounds sappy and weird, but it's true.

I also just want to add in a slight word of caution too-  With the volume that he's drinking, detoxification cold turkey could pose serious emergent acute alcohol withdrawal, which can be fatal if not managed.  He will likely need medical treatment and supervision to detox, should he make the choice to hard stop... 

Again, best of luck to you and your friend.  Does he like cars?  Invite him here.  It's a wonderful idle time hobby. 

Datsun240ZGuy said:

NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) said:

This! ^

My sister had throat cancer surgery and mentioned she was an average drinker to the medical people (she wasn't).  After surgery she struggled so much with the DT's she was put into a medical coma to get her through.

Why lie and deny the issue to them? Not sure but it was all part of her lifestyle.  

Some people don't realize an issue is an issue. 

TJL (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) :

All good, thanks. 
 

ignoring problems does not fix them. 
Be a pain in his ass if he does not want to listen.  Make him uncomfortable with drinking. Tell him how its going to be. 
With alcohol abuse, as your liver turns into scar tissue rather than functioning liver, it cannot clean your blood so your iodine levels go up. It makes your brain cloudy and when it gets high enough, brain damage results. Your blood platelet numbers drop and you have issues healing and bleeding. As your liver becomes scar tissue, it can no longer process blood fast enough. You get "varices", too much pressure built up and start to rupture veins to relieve the pressure.   See if he wants his family watching him bleed out while he is delirious and heading into a coma. 

 

I watched a very good friend go through this firsthand. Scarring to say the least.

Also, I have worked in a community health center for 18 years with patients with addictions (not in a clinical sense), and I study the outcomes of the program, so I feel pretty qualified to speak to this topic.

In addition, my mother was an alcoholic and had a cocaine addiction. When I was 11 she had a breakdown that lead to a suicide attempt which ultimately lead to her being put in rehab against her will. She was told there that with her bad attitude she would never stay sober, and telling my mother she can't do something just makes it a challenge to overcome. Not only did she quit drinking, but she has been sober since, and that was 31 years ago now. I'm very proud of her.

So, I know from experience that it can be done, and I have seen the consequences of not stopping drinking, but as sad as this is, you can't stop someone else from feeding an addiction. There are no magic words to say, or 12 step program, or rehab that is going to make a difference if the person doesn't want it, and want it for themselves. They can't do it to save a marriage, or keep their kids, or make other's happy. I'm sorry you are going through this, it is hard on everyone around the person too. The only real advice I can give is be a good example by staying sober, at least around them, and be a non-judgmental ear when they need to talk. Don't push them away by beating them up about their addiction.

Is that a canoe? 

Anyway as an update he is still drinking but has slowed somewhat. Not cured by any means but he has cut his consumption by quite a lot so that is encouraging. 

Pretty sure a canoe brought this back, but for an update on my comments, they told My Brother he had 2 years or so if he stopped drinking, or 2 months or so if he didn't. He chose the months and died in June at 57. 

😳 Riding the elevator with my brother to Mom's hospice room,  fellow got on & follower us up.  "Relative?" he asked.  Yes, our mother.  "Mmmm, me too.  My son surely loved to drink".

I've watched two friends go the Induced Coma path, damn I need to reassess .....

Steve_Jones said:

Pretty sure a canoe brought this back, but for an update on my comments, they told My Brother he had 2 years or so if he stopped drinking, or 2 months or so if he didn't. He chose the months and died in June at 57. 

Man that is sad.  I pretty much quit drinking years ago.  I traveled a lot for my job and most of my co-workers wanted to meet up at bars.  After watching them get loaded (on the company expense account) and cheat on their wives like it was nothing, I started being the odd wheel and not attending.  Didn't help that my father died at 45 from alcohol abuse.  For years I had company physicals which generated a letter telling me I needed to curb my alcohol intake.  It seems I have fatty liver now.  If I had kept drinking I seriously doubt I would still be here.  I now question if this was part of my fathers problem.