How to attach two 4x4's?

Long story short, I'm building a slightly lofted bed frame. I've figured out my design, and the only spot where I'm worried about strength is where I will have two 4x4's meeting at a corner. Since I don't have a picture or rendering of what I'm talking about, I will now show you through interpretive dance:

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Did that work? No? Okay, well imagine two 4x4's meeting at a corner like an L. One will be the leg, the other will be part of the frame that the box sits on. The frame part will sit on top of the leg. How do I attach it? I assume that a 6 inch wood screw is not the prefered way to do it. I only have hand saws (and not good ones), so I would like to keep it as a butt joint.

Also, I would like to keep it very cheap, but it will be a bed--I weigh 200, and while she is a healthy weight, the girlfriend is almost as tall as I am. Figure that the thing will need to support 400lbs plus additional abuse from... pillow fights.

Dowels seem to be the first though, second would be more difficult but very strong, dove tailed joint.

Simpson makes all sorts of bracketry; most home improvement places will stock a bunch of their stuff, though I have had to google around for a couple of things.

They'll have something appropriate for your task.

here is a pic of dowel joint

[URL=http://media.photobucket.com/user/aleighbrianne1/media/CONSTRUCTION%20AND%20UPHOLSTERY/doweljoint.jpg.html][/URL]

[URL=http://media.photobucket.com/user/UKBamber/media/woodworking-joint-butt-dowel.jpg.html][/URL]

aussiesmg's ideas would be prettier and more furniture-like. Done well, they'd probably also be less prone to becoming flexy.

I typed into the googles: 4x4 post construction and got this

Is that what you're looking for?

Other wise I would try to do a lap joint, but flip it upside down:

I would suggest heavy angle brackets and bolts. Not as pretty, but strong.

cwh wrote: I would suggest heavy angle brackets and bolts. Not as pretty, but strong.

And easier, it looks like...

Also, I will be using copious amounts of gorilla glue in addition to all other fasteners.

cwh wrote: I would suggest heavy angle brackets and bolts. Not as pretty, but strong.

RossD wrote: I typed into the googles: 4x4 post construction and got this

I think these idea's are going to win.

Dowels, Wood glue, and Truss plates...would hold up a rhino exhibit on a running tilt-a-whirl

Example of truss plate:

How tall is the leg? Strengthening the joint is fine, but for long sweaty aggressive interludes of pillow fighting on a summer night, what's going to keep this tower from folding or falling over?

Cross bracing anywhere?

Ditto on the Simpson bracketry. If you are trying to use a butt joint, almost anything you do will involve lag bolts or screws going into end grain of one of the pieces, which is far from ideal.

Bracketry will let you put fasteners into the side grain of each piece, and it will provide bending moment strength to resist the tendency of the joint to act like a hinge.

If you need a visualization tool, I strongly recommend downloading the free SketchUp application from Google. The learning curve is ridiculously low, and there is a mountain of pre-made pieces available for download. You can look at an object from any perspective and export jpegs or other graphic formats.

Ledger lock screws work real well. Those plus a bracket should be more than strong enough. As mentioned, some sort of side bracing makes a lot of sense.

914Driver wrote: How tall is the leg? Strengthening the joint is fine, but for long sweaty aggressive interludes of pillow fighting on a summer night, what's going to keep this tower from folding or falling over? Cross bracing anywhere?

The leg will be about 2 feet. I can't get anything in pictures (I'm at work), so I'll try to describe it as best I can:

Imagine 4x4's that make a shape like this: |‾‾‾‾‾|. So three 4x4's. There will be two of these, they will run head to foot on each side of the bed. I am going to attach 2x4's on the legs at the head and foot running from the left leg to the right leg. There will be one on both the inside and outside of both the head and foot. Additionally, there will be three to four 2x4's running underneath from the left "frame 4x4" to the right one.

The bed is approximately 74x54 (I have exact measurements at home); the frame will be approximately 2 inches wider than that, and I will have 1x2's running the length on the top to hold the mattress in.

Hope that made sense.

Unless you are luckier than me, all the 4x4s will be treated. Be sure and use the correct fasteners.

Makes sense. I remodeled the bathroom upstairs by knocking down a wall and moving it out 3 feet. This made the bedroom next door much smaller, but that tiny room plus the next room made kind of like a living room - bedroom area for my son growing up.

I did pretty much what you are doing but I framed the bed over a maple dresser. It's about 3 feet off the floor, great for a kid; but huge amounts of storage in the dresser and behind the dresser is room for occasionally used luggage and crap.

Inside the frame, I ran 2X2s to support a mattress, but I put 3/4" plywood on top of that to spread the load.

The rules say any post almost 2 pages long and you have tp put up pictures later or get banned.

914Driver wrote: Makes sense. I remodeled the bathroom upstairs by knocking down a wall and moving it out 3 feet. This made the bedroom next door much smaller, but that tiny room plus the next room made kind of like a living room - bedroom area for my son growing up. I did pretty much what you are doing but I framed the bed over a maple dresser. It's about 3 feet off the floor, great for a kid; but huge amounts of storage in the dresser and behind the dresser is room for occasionally used luggage and crap. Inside the frame, I ran 2X2s to support a mattress, but I put 3/4" plywood on top of that to spread the load. The rules say any post almost 2 pages long and you have tp put up pictures later or get banned.

I'll make a build thread for it

I was about to link the Red Green video of attaching two K-cars side-by-side but you are asking about a different kind of 4x4...

EvanB wrote: I was about to link the Red Green video of attaching two K-cars side-by-side but you are asking about a different kind of 4x4...

Any time that you can link to Red Green, you should. Even if it is completely unrelated.

usually strap or chain...

You are seriously over thinking this, and making it much more complicated than it needs to be.

Bed frame- basic rectangle of 1x6 that the box spring fits inside. Small ledger strip at bottom edge of 1x2 to support box spring.

Run the 2 sides 3 1/2" long at both the head and foot.

Your 4x4 legs will fit in the corner created by the long running side rails. Bolt them to the side rails with an EW oriented bolt, and to the head/ foot rails with a NS bolt.

Done.

If you want a head or foot board, run the 4x4's tall.

As a former timber framer, I can assure you that any connection between 2 4x4's is difficult with bad hand tools. Dowels are tricky to align.

Simpson connectors will look like crap, and will not hold the joint snug when exposed to the kind of twisting that can come from enthusiastic pillow fighting.

Oh, and Gorilla Glue will not save you. It is worthless on end grain.

I guarantee my suggestion will be 10X stronger, with NO glue.

2X4 slots at the top and edge of the 2 4X4's so they overlap then bolt through the overlap. The corner halving joint below.

I agree. Sounds like you're really over-thinking this.

I have an old bed made from pine and very simple construction. 2x6 risers on the corners with two more spanning the ends. The mattress is supported by two more 2x6's spanning between the head and foot boards, with a 2x2 ledge support and 1x4's between them. Everything is mostly held together with lag bolts. It's all incredibly simple and held up well to... enthusiastic pillow fighting...

The bed is long out of use, but I still use the long ledger boards as ramps to get wheeled things in/out of vehicles.

wlkelley3 wrote: 2X4 slots at the top and edge of the 2 4X4's so they overlap then bolt through the overlap. The corner halving joint below.

That "corner halving" joint is typically called a half lap.

It's a good joint, but not easy with a dull hand saw.

It also does not account for the 3rd timber member (the head rail) connecting at the same point. The joint is more complex than that.