How would one become a hockey rink owner?

Hey guys,

As some of you may know I'm coaching my sons squirt level hockey team this year. However I see an opportunity to maybe become a business owner, but don't have a clue as to how to do it. I see a huge hockey program in this huge town that is large enough to be a city population wise, and there is only one rink in town. Every team has to work around this one rink for practices/games/etc. On top of that there are programs from other towns near by that share the ice as well. You can imagine it is a scheduling nightmare, one which I'm glad I don't have to handle.

The rink in town was built in the late 60's early 70's and has tiny locker rooms, and looks old and dated. Truth be told the hockey program doesn't even own the rink. It is state owned, and run by a management company. The youth hockey program doesn't even get a discount for buying so much ice time. So that means that every hour of ice time probably costs the program $230. I say that because I rent ice time for my pickup hour at another rink run by the same management company and that is what I pay per hour. That's a lot of money it seems for a youth program. Signing a kid up for the league costs $1300 for the season of which I imagine most of it goes to ice time as we have 2-3 practices a week without games. Multiply that cost over the amount of teams and you see where I'm going. Over the past few years the program has purchased ice time from another facility one town over, but that place is limited because it has other programs buying up ice time. Fortunately that facility has 2.5 sheets of ice. When it was built 10 years ago or so it was juts a single sheet, and had financial troubles. I believe it was eventually sold to new owners, and then they added more sheets of ice.

Just the squirt program alone has 6 teams with 87+ players. Imagine scheduling that. Add in the mini-mite, mite, pee-wee, bantam, midgets, and girls programs and you can see we could use more sheets of ice. Also the high school teams share the rink, along with a couple of other high school teams from the area. We need another rink in town. I'm not sure why the state, or rink management company doesn't add another building on the current grounds as they have the space.

I don't know the first thing about being a business owner or even how to raise funds to do something like this, but it seems like a real opportunity to start a business with customers at the ready. I guess putting together a business plan would be a good idea, but I don't even know how to do that. Finding land for said rink, and the money to build it would also be something I wouldn't know how to do. Any suggestions?

Am I crazy?

TL/DR

> How would one become a hockey rink owner?

One would purchase or otherwise devise a hockey rink.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised that when one considers the cost of the existing ice rink and the revenue stream, you already have one too many to make a viable business case.

I've never built a hockey rink, but I would think they'd be expensive to build.

Those season sign-up costs are insane. We are used to youth sports seasons being more like $30-$60 (not hockey).

How big is a hockey rink? I'm betting you would need a 10,000 SF building. Figure $200 per foot- $2,000,000. Plus ice equipment, vending, etc.. That's a pretty good sized investment.

Sounds like you are doing your homework.

The real question would be what the opportunity is. If all the teams are actually being scheduled, then there is no need. The only opportunity would be if you could offer ice time at a reduced price, and then get the business. If you built it and could only win over half the business, you'd have trouble.

The business opportunity is probably buying the existing monopoly.

My brother is doing this right now in-between Moscow and Pullman.

The biggest hurdle so far is money. He managed to get drawings, permits, land, etc for a pretty nice property. The problem is the millions of dollars required to build the structure. The most expensive part being the very flat, high quality, and filled with tubes surface.

He's still working on it, and has been for a few years.

He helped put up a 3/4 sized rink in Moscow a long time ago, and took over management when he moved back from Alaska. But the board running it didn't like him, so booted him. He had plans to add a full sized surface so that Idaho and Washington State could have a real rink for their club teams.

With the separation, he's got different plans for the rink in Washington. I'm sure I'll find out more status next week when my parents stop by for a few days here. They were up with him last weekend.

In reply to SVreX:

A regulation rink is 200x85, so just the rink is 17,000 SF. at a min, either side will need 10ft on one side, and another 20 on the other (for benches/officials stuff on ones side and bleachers on the other. So that's 200x115 over 20k SF. Then add the space for ice making equipment and zamboni at one end, and lockers at the other- probably pushing that into the 270x115. The possible vending, shops (at least skate rental and sharpening at a bare min). Now 300x115.

Now we are talking well over 30,000 sq ft.

Plus the much higher cost of the actual ice surface prep.

Huckleberry wrote: TL/DR > How would one become a hockey rink owner? One would purchase or otherwise devise a hockey rink.

Thanks Captain Obvious...

SVreX wrote: I've never built a hockey rink, but I would think they'd be expensive to build. Those season sign-up costs are insane. We are used to youth sports seasons being more like $30-$60 (not hockey). How big is a hockey rink? I'm betting you would need a 10,000 SF building. Figure $200 per foot- $2,000,000. Plus ice equipment, vending, etc.. That's a pretty good sized investment. Sounds like you are doing your homework. The real question would be what the opportunity is. If all the teams are actually being scheduled, then there is no need. The only opportunity would be if you could offer ice time at a reduced price, and then get the business. If you built it and could only win over half the business, you'd have trouble. The business opportunity is probably buying the existing monopoly.

An NHL sized rink is 200' X 85'. The building would have to be considerably larger than that I suppose if you want a concession stand, locker rooms, stands, showers, lobby, etc..

Land in South-Eastern MA is very expensive too, but there has to be a way to do this. I guess I'm probably not the guy as I don't have any money, but could scare some up I suppose, but not in the millions of dollars range.

Knowing the running costs involved, I imagine one becomes a rink owner by losing a bet.

Find a group of investors, find land, make a business plan...

The funding is the hard part. They are really berkeleying expensive, and break even takes a long time. That is why so many of them are through the city/state. Around here a lot of the private ones are defaulting on their bonds, and the ice slots are all filled completely. Actually that is true around the country, irrc. You basically need to find very wealthy folks (maybe the Boston Bruins?) who have the same dream as you, and everyone put in money not expecting to get any of it back.

In reply to alfadriver:

OK, so $6 mil worth of building, plus land and equipment.

Sounds like a $15 mil investment.

$230 per hour sounds really cheap.

Oh, the "cheap" way to do it is to have it open October through April, in a blow-up dome. In the summer it becomes indoor soccer or basket all courts.

SVreX wrote: In reply to alfadriver: OK, so $6 mil worth of building, plus land and equipment. Sounds like a $15 mil investment. $230 per hour sounds really cheap.

When you put it that way, yes it is cheap. Maybe it's a pie in the sky idea. I just see so much opportunity. Maybe I'm crazy. Probably. Definitely.

It might be possible to convert an existing building - or even rent a facility and set up temporary rinks. There's an outfit that turns various outdoor venues in the Atlanta area into skating rinks in the winter - I'm sure you could pull the same thing off with a gym or other indoor location.

Another rink could potentially "make the pie bigger" here if there's enough pent up demand. Don't overlook people just looking to rent some skates and skate around for a while, either.

While an outdoor rink may not be ideal, it seems like the perfect solution for youth leagues.

You could try your idea at a very low price point, and save the league a heck of a lot of money.

SVreX wrote: While an outdoor rink may not be ideal, it seems like the perfect solution for youth leagues. You could try your idea at a very low price point, and save the league a heck of a lot of money.

Not as expensive, but a royal PITA unless you're in Minnesota or Canada. I'd fear in MA that that big puddle would keep things too warm in the winter to maintain the ice very well. BTW, these still have a lot of the shortfalls of an indoor rink--Zamboni, coils under the rink, refrigeration unit, etc.

In reply to mtn:

Not nearly as big a PITA as a multi-million dollar debt without the cash flow to support it.

Why do 8 year olds need an NHL grade rink to learn to skate on??

The big problem with existing rinks here in the Minneapolis area seems to be they all have older refrigeration systems that will need replacement soon, since they are wearing out and using obsolete forms of refrigerant. The new systems are really expensive.

SVreX wrote: In reply to mtn: Not nearly as big a PITA as a multi-million dollar debt without the cash flow to support it. Why do 8 year olds need an NHL grade rink to learn to skate on??

Safety. You need a quality ice surface. That is the only thing you really need. It is also the most difficult thing. Anything else can be worked around--you don't need locker rooms, you don't need scoreboards, you don't even need indoor plumbing. You do need the ice surface (which means refrigeration unit and coils underneath, and a Zamboni) and you do need boards and lines on the ice (cheap and easy). Otherwise you have a pond that you can't actually schedule anything on.

As a youth referee, I have refused to allow the game to start because of the ice surface on outdoor rinks. I've done it on indoor rinks. And I've done it because of the boards in the locations as well. A poor ice surface can be dangerous. I wouldn't take on the liability of one, so you need a quality ice surface--indoor or outdoor--that is "NHL quality" to even get to where it is worth a discussion.

And FWIW, the worst ice surface I've ever skated on hosts a Junior team (i.e. Pre-NHL), a Division I college (club) team, and used to have minor leage (CHL, UHL/IHL, SPHL) in there as well. Professional rinks tend to have poor ice surfaces.

Something that you might want to do is explore expanding the existing rink with a studio rink, used for practices and mite games. Might get some traction if there is enough space.

My understanding has always been that the electric bill to maintain the ice is really expensive.

Think about ice cubes. The bigger the piece of ice (in Sq ft or Sq in) the longer the ice will last.
One large block of ice lasts longer than one cube and a glacier lasts a long time.
Now look at rink surface. It's super wide but relative to that width it is ultra thin. In addition to that, there is no lid to put on.

You have to overcome the outside Temps as well as keep some heat in the building. Add to that you then drive a big melting machine over it at regular intervals.

mtn wrote:

SVreX wrote: While an outdoor rink may not be ideal, it seems like the perfect solution for youth leagues. You could try your idea at a very low price point, and save the league a heck of a lot of money.

Not as expensive, but a royal PITA unless you're in Minnesota or Canada. I'd fear in MA that that big puddle would keep things too warm in the winter to maintain the ice very well. BTW, these still have a lot of the shortfalls of an indoor rink--Zamboni, coils under the rink, refrigeration unit, etc.

I'm not sure if the ice would be up to MTN's standards, but they're able to pull off outdoor rinks here in Georgia, and I've skated on one in temperatures high enough I didn't need a jacket. Not sure I'd want to know what the power consumption on that one was!

MadScientistMatt wrote:

mtn wrote:

SVreX wrote: While an outdoor rink may not be ideal, it seems like the perfect solution for youth leagues. You could try your idea at a very low price point, and save the league a heck of a lot of money.

Not as expensive, but a royal PITA unless you're in Minnesota or Canada. I'd fear in MA that that big puddle would keep things too warm in the winter to maintain the ice very well. BTW, these still have a lot of the shortfalls of an indoor rink--Zamboni, coils under the rink, refrigeration unit, etc.

I'm not sure if the ice would be up to MTN's standards, but they're able to pull off outdoor rinks here in Georgia, and I've skated on one in temperatures high enough I didn't need a jacket. Not sure I'd want to know what the power consumption on that one was!

How big was it? How many people were on it? How long was it in operation? How much did you pay to get out there on it?

I'm guessing that it was a lot smaller than a hockey rink (which might still work for a practice and mite rink). I'm also guessing it was packed, because it is a novelty in Atlanta, and you paid $10 for your skate rental for 30 minute sand someone else rented them immediately after you. And, I'd bet that it was there for about a month, so the novelty didn't wear out for too many people, and it was packed the whole time. Oh, and did it say Coca-Cola on the side of it anywhere? (Side note: Corporate sponsers are often necessary for even a community rink. I used to skate at the "Pepsi Center" which was a park-district facility--so another avenue for funding for the dream)

It isn't easy folks. Chicago has many outdoor rinks with skate rental. It works because we're generally cold enough that the ice maintains itself, and because the skate rental is expensive and they sell $4.00 drinks right there. But those are skating rinks, not hockey rinks. Public skates (if they're generally well attended) make tons of money. Youth hockey doesn't make nearly as much, although it is ironically the bread and butter.

SVreX wrote: In reply to mtn: Not nearly as big a PITA as a multi-million dollar debt without the cash flow to support it. Why do 8 year olds need an NHL grade rink to learn to skate on??

Not sure what you mean by NHL grade. Most rinks I've paid attention to- NHL rinks tend to be warm, so the ice is pretty soft- which I really hated playing hockey on. Smaller building rinks (with full sized sheets) are easier to cool, and the comfort of the viewer isn't a big deal- so the system is cooler. It's cheaper to keep the sheet cool when the air above it is also cool.

Unless you mean size- and that does matter.

An NHL rink isn't that big- the international sized rinks are much larger. So that's probably not a good idea.

Going smaller than that means you won't be able to have real games on the rink. That's the issue my brother has in northern Idaho- there are small rinks in Lewiston and Moscow, neither of one attracts outside teams for games. To play anyone outside of the community- they travel 2 hours for a proper sized rink.

If you are just skating around, sure- a small sheet of ice will do.

If you want to see some real games played, or even attract some figure skaters who pay good money for ice time- you need at least an NHL sheet size.

alfadriver wrote:

SVreX wrote: In reply to mtn: Not nearly as big a PITA as a multi-million dollar debt without the cash flow to support it. Why do 8 year olds need an NHL grade rink to learn to skate on??

Not sure what you mean by NHL grade. Most rinks I've paid attention to- NHL rinks tend to be warm, so the ice is pretty soft- which I really hated playing hockey on. Smaller building rinks (with full sized sheets) are easier to cool, and the comfort of the viewer isn't a big deal- so the system is cooler. It's cheaper to keep the sheet cool when the air above it is also cool. Unless you mean size- and that does matter. An NHL rink isn't that big- the international sized rinks are much larger. So that's probably not a good idea. Going smaller than that means you won't be able to have real games on the rink. That's the issue my brother has in northern Idaho- there are small rinks in Lewiston and Moscow, neither of one attracts outside teams for games. To play anyone outside of the community- they travel 2 hours for a proper sized rink. If you are just skating around, sure- a small sheet of ice will do. If you want to see some real games played, or even attract some figure skaters who pay good money for ice time- you need at least an NHL sheet size.

One thing though, a smaller rink CAN have mite games, house league games, and practices (depending on how small). That does help out a lot.