Let's say I found a cheap late 90s Rover Mini in Canada and I live in the US. Let's say I have non-specified plans for it once in the US. The only time I've left the country was to the Bahamas. In those days, I had no passport and just hopped in a four place Cessna and flew over from Florida, milled around for a while, and flew back. Customs was pretty laid back, optional, and on the honor system.
Now my scenario: I fly or take a bus to Canada, buy the Mini, and head for the boarder. What are my options? Is it possible to just drive through the boarder checkpoint (or whatever they have) for a "visit" and then just keep on driving home? Do they even look at your vehicle? Again, I'm not worried about future local vehicle registration and/or titling per se, I'm currious how/if a US citizen could drive a Canadian car across the boarder without any Imperial entanglements.
Where in the US are you?
I'd suggest it magically turn into a heavily upgraded 70s Mini while still in Canada, and you bring it in with the proper paperwork as a safety/emissions exempt car.
Let's call that a non-specified option that time does not allow... unless such documentation could be obtained in the next three days. I am in WV.
My experience with the US-Canada border these days, particularly coming back into the US, is reminiscent of what I imagine crossing the Berlin wall in the early 80s must have been like. They REALLLLLLLY do not like it when you wing it. Trying to cross in an illegal car would probably not go well.
I understand that when you are bringing a US car into Canada, the border likes to have all the paperwork in their hot little hands at least three days in advance.
I'm sure there is comparable bureaucracy your way too.
Call them up and ask what the procedure should be.
It's probably not a big deal. There's nothing wrong with bringing a car across, and I'll bet you could bring it over on temp tags. The problem is keeping it in the US beyond a certain time period.
Granted, every time I've driven a Canadian car across it was as a Canadian living in the States, but it's never been much of a conversation - even when driving a US registered car into Canada.
My brother bought a boat from an American and arranged for the poor sod to drive it across the border to "go fishing". Border guards are not stupid and this one just took the guys cell phone and scrolled through the recent calls. Found the 10 or so to my brother and called pretending to be a friend. Had the whole story five minutes later and the fine was really really big. My message would be don't berkeley with border guards and assume you will slip something by them.
If you cross the border with Canadian temp tags, there will be a TON of questions leading to more BS than you would care to encounter. Translated, you will probably lose the car. If you get caught, the only way to get it back in your hands is to do it "right" which is incredibly difficult and remarkably expensive.
If you can tweak the system in the states and get a temp tag for your home state FIRST and put it on the car, no worries. You could just be an American citizen who just bought an American car and went across the border for the weekend.
Here is the tough part, however. The level of information being harvested at the border is not excessive, but it is getting smart. They log plate numbers, duty free spending, passport swipes, etc.
I spend almost every summer in Canada for my entire life. I used to say "a couple weeks" for my length of stay. They want to know how long you're staying, and taking more than 2 weeks worth of food and supplies with you is a red flag. They want you to spend money up there. Long stays also indicate the possibility of property ownership, squatting, leaving things behind, etc. I got snagged for lying (and subsequently searched). I was coming back south and they asked how long I was there. I said "a couple weeks." He asked, "you didn't come up on July 5th?" which I had. I tried to spin it into, "yeah, I came up earlier too." I was told that my license plate was logged IN on July 5th and OUT on that day (August 21).
Its not the Canadian side that worries so much, its the American side coming back. We'll screw ya :)
I have an interesting scenario now in a kinda backwards way to yours. They've started asking me the plate number of my trailer as well.
I have a travel trailer that I bought and left in Ontario on a permanent site. Its not technically legal but no one cares. Now, I don't think I'll be able to bring it back. If I go up with just a truck and come back with a truck and trailer, it will probably be A-OK, but all it takes is one good border guard doing his/her job well and I could be in a heap of BS.
Keith Tanner wrote:
It's probably not a big deal. There's nothing wrong with bringing a car across, and I'll bet you could bring it over on temp tags. The problem is keeping it in the US beyond a certain time period.
Granted, every time I've driven a Canadian car across it was as a Canadian living in the States, but it's never been much of a conversation - even when driving a US registered car into Canada.
The real trouble will be titling/registering it. Its not just an easy deal down here. If the vehicle wasn't originally certified for US emissions, it won't happen. Doesn't even matter if there is no emissions testing in the state where he lives, its not a real possibility without a TON of documentation that shows you jumped through all the legal hoops.
I looked into it once when I desperately wanted an E30 estate. They never did them in the US, but they did in Canada. Since BMW never intended them for the states, they never had them US emission certified. Its the same car, same engine, same catalyst, but since it was a different body, it had to have its own certification. Even if I had gone through the crazy hoops to get it here, I wouldn't have been able to title it. Even if I found a loophole or a loose DMV that would title it, I could never live in an area that tests emissions, and once emissions testing becomes universal, I couldn't drive it, sell it, or even sell it to a junkyard since they can't crush it or make money off any driveline parts.
Kenny_McCormic wrote:
In reply to curtis73:
Like I said, Stasi.
Yep. Berlin wall indeed. Ich bin agreein'
curtis73 wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote:
It's probably not a big deal. There's nothing wrong with bringing a car across, and I'll bet you could bring it over on temp tags. The problem is keeping it in the US beyond a certain time period.
Granted, every time I've driven a Canadian car across it was as a Canadian living in the States, but it's never been much of a conversation - even when driving a US registered car into Canada.
The real trouble will be titling/registering it. Its not just an easy deal down here. If the vehicle wasn't originally certified for US emissions, it won't happen. Doesn't even matter if there is no emissions testing in the state where he lives, its not a real possibility without a TON of documentation that shows you jumped through all the legal hoops.
My experience there has been the opposite of yours. Emissions requirements are the same as if the car has always been in the US. In an area where there's no emissions testing, there's absolutely no question. If there IS, I believe you just have to pass the same tests as any other car of the era.
Which could, admittedly, be a problem for a 90's Mini. I know a friend in Canada with a legal UK market 1986 Mini had trouble passing the Ontario emissions tests. It had a pretty rorty cam and an SU carb, of course.
The hoops to bring a Canadian market car into the US aren't that big - IF you choose the right car. You simply need a letter from the manufacturer stating that it meets appropriate safety standards. The NHTSA even gives you the contact info for each manufacturer. Now, that could be a problem for an E30 that wasn't sold in the US, but that's for BMW to say. Or would have been, before the E30 hit a quarter century. The biggest problem for a lot of cars post-1989 is airbags, as Canada didn't require active safety at the same time the US did. For example, I can think of a certain two-seater sports car that didn't have airbags in the US in 1990, so an August 1989 production car is legal but a September 1989 one is not. This will change for the latter car in September 2014, when the NHTSA loses interest. I have a April 1990-production car that is waiting for its 25th birthday.
Emissions is all about your state, the NHTSA doesn't care and the EPA doesn't get involved in personal imports in my experience.
It's true that the temp tags are probably a little ambitious. But I've crossed the border in a number of configurations and the only real question was about who owned the car. One of my cars was driven across by the current owner, and I met him in Michigan. It was legally imported into the US once I got back to Colorado, but we didn't do anything special at the border and that didn't raise any eyebrows. Same with my Land Rover, I drove it across and imported it later.
Keith Tanner wrote:
curtis73 wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote:
It's probably not a big deal. There's nothing wrong with bringing a car across, and I'll bet you could bring it over on temp tags. The problem is keeping it in the US beyond a certain time period.
Granted, every time I've driven a Canadian car across it was as a Canadian living in the States, but it's never been much of a conversation - even when driving a US registered car into Canada.
The real trouble will be titling/registering it. Its not just an easy deal down here. If the vehicle wasn't originally certified for US emissions, it won't happen. Doesn't even matter if there is no emissions testing in the state where he lives, its not a real possibility without a TON of documentation that shows you jumped through all the legal hoops.
My experience there has been the opposite of yours. Emissions requirements are the same as if the car has always been in the US. In an area where there's no emissions testing, there's absolutely no question. If there IS, I believe you just have to pass the same tests as any other car of the era.
I agree. The requirements are the same.
I'll give you an example. My 96 Impala SS was purchased new in PA. I moved to CA. Thank goodness I had a 50-state car or I couldn't have titled it. There was absolutely no difference in the cars, just that being the first OBD2 year, it could have been stickered 49 state or 50 state. If I wanted to buy a replacement catalytic converter, I could buy the part number that fit the 94-95 cars and 49-state 96s was $150. If I wanted a 96 50-state catalyst, it was $600. It was the same exact converter, just that the part number for the 50-state cat had been approved. So, I could get the cheap converter and pass the sniffer just as easily.... as long as I had it shipped to a friend in NV.
What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter if its the same emissions requirements... if it doesn't have a US emissions sticker on it, it either won't ever be titled here, or if it is titled here it will be relatively worthless in 5 years. Its bureaucratic BS, but that's how it works.
I will, however concede to your experience. I've never successfully done it despite trying. You have successfully done it 
I just ran into so many emissions/NHTSA/EPA bullE36 M3 runarounds that I gave up.
OK, back on topic. Not so much concerned with getting it titled and registered once in the US.
From what I gather: There are checkpoints at all roads crossing the boarder. A US citizen (me) arriving in Canada by bus/plane and then attempting to drive a Canadian car back to the US can expect to have the vehicle inspected and/or confirmed that the vehicle is mine. Do they inspect for general content inside or are they inspecting the car specifically to make sure it's not a Canadian car? Or a Canadian driving a Canadian car into the US and then skipping/moonwalking back across the boarder without the car will be interrogated until he cracks? Driving into Canada with a US truck and empty trailer and back out with a small tarped object labeled "Not a WMD" loaded on the trailer will pass through completely without suspicion?
On a related note, anyone have a Classic Mini for sale in the US?
You need a disposable car to drive into Canada, I suggest a Yugo. Have it all titled, drive across like you are on a weekend trip, and the swap the plates over to the mini. Then drive back. All the computers will see is that you drove up in your car and then returned. Even the guards will just register "small foreign car". If they check the vin on the way in, just pull that from the Yugo and stick it on the Mini. Extra points if you rattle-can the Yugo to match the Mini first, and drive across late at night.
A late 90s mini is NOT a road legal car in the USA and wont be for another decade. Both sides of the border share info in real time, if you mange to piss off the Canadians coming in for example, you're guaranteed to go through customs coming back into the US. Aside from say, a full prepped race car you bring back on a trailer you came in with, you'd probably be OK. You DO NOT berkeley with US border people, the second you give them the slightest suspicion(and coming across the border driving a micro car you didnt have on entry is), you're immediately a baby eating, father raping, mother stabbing, jihadist drug mule until proven otherwise.
Sounds pretty grim and it looks like I won't be driving a Mini anytime soon.
Since you don't have experience crossing the border I'll give you a quick tutorial on things that have tripped up a few of my American friends when they've come up to visit. The Canadian authorities are only concerned with you when you enter Canada not when you leave. Assuming you have a valid passport and no convictions you'll be good to go. Just tell the truth when you arrive at the border. Don't try to bring any guns with you. If you're carrying be sure to declare it up front. The guards will secure your gun and transfer it to the American border guards. You can pick it back up when you head back across the border. Exceptions to this rule are for hunting only and also have to be declared, this dosen't affect you. Mace and stun guns are not allowed in Canada either. The Canadian and US authorities cooperate so they know when and where you crossed the border and when you expect to return. They will also know the reason for your trip that you gave to the Canadian guards. They will notice if you return driving a different car. It sounds like you can do all of this legally so don't do anything stupid or you'll be screwed by the US authorities.
If you ~do~ go the slammer though, I'd visit you.
I'd bring you a cake.
With a saw in it.
curtis73 wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote:
curtis73 wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote:
It's probably not a big deal. There's nothing wrong with bringing a car across, and I'll bet you could bring it over on temp tags. The problem is keeping it in the US beyond a certain time period.
Granted, every time I've driven a Canadian car across it was as a Canadian living in the States, but it's never been much of a conversation - even when driving a US registered car into Canada.
The real trouble will be titling/registering it. Its not just an easy deal down here. If the vehicle wasn't originally certified for US emissions, it won't happen. Doesn't even matter if there is no emissions testing in the state where he lives, its not a real possibility without a TON of documentation that shows you jumped through all the legal hoops.
My experience there has been the opposite of yours. Emissions requirements are the same as if the car has always been in the US. In an area where there's no emissions testing, there's absolutely no question. If there IS, I believe you just have to pass the same tests as any other car of the era.
I agree. The requirements are the same.
I'll give you an example. My 96 Impala SS was purchased new in PA. I moved to CA. Thank goodness I had a 50-state car or I couldn't have titled it. There was absolutely no difference in the cars, just that being the first OBD2 year, it could have been stickered 49 state or 50 state. If I wanted to buy a replacement catalytic converter, I could buy the part number that fit the 94-95 cars and 49-state 96s was $150. If I wanted a 96 50-state catalyst, it was $600. It was the same exact converter, just that the part number for the 50-state cat had been approved. So, I could get the cheap converter and pass the sniffer just as easily.... as long as I had it shipped to a friend in NV.
What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter if its the same emissions requirements... if it doesn't have a US emissions sticker on it, it either won't ever be titled here, or if it is titled here it will be relatively worthless in 5 years. Its bureaucratic BS, but that's how it works.
I will, however concede to your experience. I've never successfully done it despite trying. You have successfully done it I just ran into so many emissions/NHTSA/EPA bullE36 M3 runarounds that I gave up.
Well, I guess I've got a couple of worthless cars that I imported a decade ago :) Your problem was with California, which is a separate country from an emissions standpoint - and definitely not one that is free of testing. So you can't extrapolate the problems with the California ARB to the rest of the US. In Colorado, you can happily title and register a car without US emissions stickers as long as it passes the tests. I don't anticipate other states following California's lead with visual tests and EOs anytime soon, it's a major expense.
As for classic Minis in the US, you'll find a lot of them are late 1990's with a VIN from an earlier car that rusted out. This isn't legal, but it's where most of the ones on eBay come from. The Mini doesn't have a VIN stamped on the chassis, it's just a rivet-on plate and you can even get replacement plates for restoration if you have the title for the car in question.
In reply to Keith Tanner:
But will the restoration parts people also sell you corroded rivets so it looks original?
So they do actually look at the VIN plate?
Usually, VIN verification is part of registering any out-of-state car.
Apis_Mellifera wrote:
So they do actually look at the VIN plate?
If you're pulled aside for questioning, yes. This probably falls under tax evasion, among other things.
